Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

Ok... God is many things to many people and your are insulting, hurtful and a disgrace by pretending you know something no one else knows. Done with this conversation. You are entitled to your own opinion but if you want others to believe you try evidence and not fallacious nonsense arguments. Self respect used to be a thing.

That is not true. I do not pretend to know something others don't know. Most religious people believe that God is an immaterial Being. If God is not a material Being, God has to be an immaterial Being. I do not pretend to know what that means.

Mainstream Christians are the only ones who believe that God became a material being when Jesus incarnated and became a man.

 

[Vaderecta]

That is not true. I do not pretend to know something others don't know. Most religious people believe that God is an immaterial Being. If God is not a material Being, God has to be an immaterial Being. I do not pretend to know what that means.

Mainstream Christians are the only ones who believe that God became a material being when Jesus incarnated and became a man.

Do you have something against mainstream christians? They are a fraction of the planet. You are saying god is not this therefore god must be whatever you say next.

It doesnt make sense in almost any other context. Except you go one step further. You claim to know something. Something no one knows. And you want to beat people over the head with your self-righteous nonsense. Its just what you think. You can think that. You can be catholic, muslim, mormon or an atheist and no one really cares. You seem to be going beyond that and stating you are some next level order of your faith and if only people knew what you knew then they would believe. I don't really follow this forum lately. I'm not after you in particular. I get annoyed with prophets and people that hate and or assign blame to a really small group of people because they some how know something they can't prove or explain but just because.

Its not ok to berate people who dont agree with you or to marginalize various aspects of our society because of some personal belief. Make a reasoned argument.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I know because of what Baha’u’llah wrote. I believe what He wrote because it is self-evident that He was a Messenger of God, given all the evidence that indicates that.

No, we have not established that because belief claims can be true.

No, only atheists need objective evidence for God which is completely irrational because there can never be objective evidence of God, so obviously there can be no objective evidence that God spoke to Messengers. These are not rational or critical thinkers. They are people with a bias.

Some religions are illogical and irrational, but that does not mean that all religions are illogical and irrational. To say that is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization.

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

1. religion a is illogical and irrational
2. religion b is illogical and irrational
3. religion c is illogical and irrational
4. religion d is illogical and irrational
5. religion e is illogical and irrational
6. Therefore, religion f is illogical and irrational

But since there can be no objective evidence or God and thus no objective evidence that a Messenger got a message from God, God and Messengers can neither be proven or disproven. We can prove a belief to ourselves but that does not make it a fact. If a belief was proven to be a fact it would be accepted by everyone.

The ultimate goal of the Baha’i Faith is to fulfill God’s Purpose for all of humanity and build the Kingdom of God on earth.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116​

The Kingdom of God on earth is also referred to as a “new world order.”The old world order is defective and it has been crumbling since the coming of Baha’u’llah but the rate at which this is happening is rapidly escalating. You can see that all over the world in politics and religion. Governments are rapidly changing and the older religions are being challenged.

“The winds of despair,” writes Bahá’u’lláh, as He surveys the immediate destinies of mankind, “are, alas, blowing from every direction, and the strife that divides and afflicts the human race is daily increasing. The signs of impending convulsions and chaos can now be discerned, inasmuch as the prevailing order appears to be lamentably defective.”
The Promised Day Is Come, p. 116​

Concurrent with the collapse of the old world order, a new world order is in the process of being built and it will eventually replace the old world order.

“This is the Day in which God’s most excellent favors have been poured out upon men, the Day in which His most mighty grace hath been infused into all created things. It is incumbent upon all the peoples of the world to reconcile their differences, and, with perfect unity and peace, abide beneath the shadow of the Tree of His care and loving-kindness. It behoveth them to cleave to whatsoever will, in this Day, be conducive to the exaltation of their stations, and to the promotion of their best interests. Happy are those whom the all-glorious Pen was moved to remember, and blessed are those men whose names, by virtue of Our inscrutable decree, We have preferred to conceal.

Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7​

The goal of the Baha’i Faith isthe betterment of the world and the tranquility of its peoples,but that will not be fully realized until the unity of mankind is firmly established, which requires that humanity heed the counsels of Baha’u’llah.

“The One true God bearethMe witness, and His creatures will testify, that not for a moment did I allow Myself to be hidden from the eyes of men, nor did I consent to shield My person from their injury. Before the face of all men I have arisen, and bidden them fulfil My pleasure. My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples.The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286​

Baha’u’llah hoisted the Standard of God among all nations, which means that in the future diverse religions and races will become friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and everyone on earth will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God, and everyone will believe in God.

“One of the great events,” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has, in His “Some Answered Questions,” affirmed, “which is to occur in the Day of the manifestation of that Incomparable Branch [Bahá’u’lláh] is the hoisting of the Standard of God among all nations. By this is meant that all nations and kindreds will be gathered together under the shadow of this Divine Banner, which is no other than the Lordly Branch itself, and will become a single nation. Religious and sectarian antagonism, the hostility of races and peoples, and differences among nations, will be eliminated. All men will adhere to one religion, will have one common faith, will be blended into one race, and become a single people. All will dwell in one common fatherland, which is the planet itself.”
The Promised Day Is Come, pp. 119-121​

Others don’t have to prove it to themselves unless they want to. Belief has always been a choice and God wants it that way. That is why we all have free will. It is indeed a bold claim that Baha’u’llah makes, but if it is true there huge implications for the salvation of humanity but also for individual salvation.

Jesus said that we attain eternal life by believing in Him....

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
​

Baha’u’llah has now said we gain eternal life by believing in Him in this new Day of God.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

Let me ask. I dont use this analogy at all since Im not your everyday atheist; but, let me ask...

If an fairy (not god) told you it will help you from falling off while you are hanging, would you

1. Believe the fairy regardless if it is real?

2. Take consideration that it is real before you accept its help?

3. Ignore the fairy because you dont trust it based on whether its
real?

4. Trust the fairy because you life depends on it and the fairy being real doesnt matter in comparison to your life?

If you answer it as if the fairy is god, it will influence my point. If you answer it as is, then it will give me a better idea of belief vs fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you have something against mainstream christians? They are a fraction of the planet. You are saying god is not this therefore god must be whatever you say next.

No, I have nothing against mainstream Christians... I am not saying that God is what I say He is, I am just saying what I believe God is according to my religion. What's wrong with that?

It doesnt make sense in almost any other context. Except you go one step further. You claim to know something. Something no one knows. And you want to beat people over the head with your self-righteous nonsense. Its just what you think. You can think that. You can be catholic, muslim, mormon or an atheist and no one really cares. You seem to be going beyond that and stating you are some next level order of your faith and if only people knew what you knew then they would believe.

You are projecting your thoughts and feelings onto me. I do not think that people should believe what i do. Everyone has free will. Belief is a choice.

I don't really follow this forum lately. I'm not after you in particular. I get annoyed with prophets and people that hate and or assign blame to a really small group of people because they some how know something they can't prove or explain but just because.

Its not ok to berate people who dont agree with you or to marginalize various aspects of our society because of some personal belief. Make a reasoned argument.

I fully agree that it is not okay to berate or marginalize anyone. We have a right to disagree but we should do so respectfully. Reasoned argument about what?

 

[Trailblazer]

Let me ask. I dont use this analogy at all since Im not your everyday atheist; but, let me ask...

If an fairy (not god) told you it will help you from falling off while you are hanging, would you

1. Believe the fairy regardless if it is real?

2. Take consideration that it is real before you accept its help?

3. Ignore the fairy because you dont trust it based on whether its
real?

4. Trust the fairy because you life depends on it and the fairy being real doesnt matter in comparison to your life?

If you answer it as if the fairy is god, it will influence my point. If you answer it as is, then it will give me a better idea of belief vs fact.

I would not believe someone who told me they were a fairy. I would have no reason to believe them.
I do not believe in fairies.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I would not believe someone who told me they were a fairy. I would have no reason to believe them.
I do not believe in fairies.

If your life were in danger (falling off a cliff) would you reconsider?

Existence of fairies is beside the point. Im an artist. I use my imagination for things.

 

[Vaderecta]

No, I have nothing against mainstream Christians... I am not saying that God is what I say He is, I am just saying what I believe God is according to my religion. What's wrong with that?

You are projecting your thoughts and feelings onto me. I do not think that people should believe what i do. Everyone has free will. Belief is a choice.

I fully agree that it is not okay to berate or marginalize anyone. We have a right to disagree but we should do so respectfully. Reasoned argument about what?

I'm very happy with this response. I'm not trying to project anything except a response to your words in this thread. And I do not believe anything is wrong with a belief in god or even a nonbelief in god. Everyone has their path.

Reasoned argument about some of the things you want me or anyone to accept as something that transcends your personal narrative and should affect me. You said: God is an immaterial Being

Ok, based on what? I hear you say that but I also can say my car gets 33 MPG on most days. I can show you data and you can take my car or a similar one and perform your own tests to agree or not. Whether you find I'm telling the truth or not is something everyone else can try. Your claim that god is real and is an immateral being. You claim Atheists can only be so if they are biased. Are you aware of your past comments in this thread? I do not want to quote them all. You seem to grasp what I am saying. Its ok to make mistakes. Own it and move on.

 

[Trailblazer]

If your life were in danger (falling off a cliff) would you reconsider?

Existence of fairies is beside the point. Im an artist. I use my imagination for things.

I suppose maybe I might consider it an angel, in which case I might reconsider.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm very happy with this response. I'm not trying to project anything except a response to your words in this thread. And I do not believe anything is wrong with a belief in god or even a nonbelief in god. Everyone has their path.

I fully agree that we all have our own path. If someone has found their path they can stop to converse with others and learn about their path... If someone has not found a spiritual path they might want to find one or not. That is their choice. I firmly believe in free will and that everyone should make their own choices. Nobody should ever tell anyone else what to believe or disbelieve.

Reasoned argument about some of the things you want me or anyone to accept as something that transcends your personal narrative and should affect me. You said: God is an immaterial Being

Ok, based on what? I hear you say that but I also can say my car gets 33 MPG on most days. I can show you data and you can take my car or a similar one and perform your own tests to agree or not. Whether you find I'm telling the truth or not is something everyone else can try. Your claim that god is real and is an immateral being.

Nothing I say about God is not something I claim. What I say is based upon the scriptures of the Baha'i Faith, what we call "the Writings of Baha'u'llah." I do not believe there is any other way to know anything about God except by what is revealed by God to Messengers of God, also called Prophets or Manifestations of God. So is is them who claim to know certain things about God, not me. They are mediators between God and man.

You claim Atheists can only be so if they are biased. Are you aware of your past comments in this thread? I do not want to quote them all. You seem to grasp what I am saying. Its ok to make mistakes. Own it and move on.

I post so many posts I cannot remember all my past comments. I might have said something that you misunderstood. Let's start over. I do not think that atheists are any more biased than anyone else. We all have a bias based upon what we believe and our past experiences.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I suppose maybe I might consider it an angel, in which case I might reconsider.

Its an analogy for a fairy rather than an angel. Once you change the details, the question is influenced by your belief rather than the point (already in the original post).

If it were a fairy, you may reconsider?

If yes, why.
If no, why not.


Assuming it is a real fairy.

 

[Vaderecta]

I do not believe there is any other way to know anything about God except by what is revealed by God to Messengers of God

You can believe that but if you get charged with murder and some dude was with you 1,000 miles away from said murder and he said god told him you did it and he was one of your messengers of god... nevermind. Figure it out.

Tons of people know about god and they are not of your faith and think you are a lunatic. I personally don't really care about your personal beliefs and do not expect anyone to care about mine. You found a faith you like.. go enjoy that community and be happy.

 

[Trailblazer]

Its an analogy for a fairy rather than an angel. Once you change the details, the question is influenced by your belief rather than the point (already in the original post).

If it were a fairy, you may reconsider?

If yes, why.
If no, why not.


Assuming it is a real fairy.

There is no such thing as a real fairy.
A fairy is by definition imaginary.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can believe that but if you get charged with murder and some dude was with you 1,000 miles away from said murder and he said god told him you did it and he was one of your messengers of god... nevermind. Figure it out.

Tons of people know about god and they are not of your faith and think you are a lunatic. I personally don't really care about your personal beliefs and do not expect anyone to care about mine. You found a faith you like.. go enjoy that community and be happy.

Messengers of God do not do what you said....

Why would it matter what people think? Truth is not dependent upon what people believe it is.
God decides what the Truth is. We either discover it or not.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There is no such thing as a real fairy.
A fairy is by definition imaginary.

Yes. I know. I use my imagination a lot; so, it is a real question. Youre diverting the question.

If- a big IF- there was a fairy that wanted to save you from danger, you said possibily (before you changed it into an angel) let them, why or why not?

Is it only because they dont exist?

Explore this for a bit.

I know there arent any fairies (actually, that conversation is too much imagination and analogy, so Ima stick to this question). The point is in my first post to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

If- a big IF- there was a fairy that wanted to save you from danger, you said possibily (before you changed it into an angel) let them, why or why not?

Sure, I would want to be saved from danger and I would let a fairy save me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sure, I would want to be saved from danger and I would let a fairy save me.

Thank you!

Some people would say no because they dont believe in fairies (facts over saving their lives)

Others dont look at facts just belief or trust but facts are irrevelant to their lives saved.

I understand both views (and dont know why atheists and theists argue over it), and I see disadvantages in both.

But I dont take sides. Interesting choice.

 

[1robin]

I am not one to mince words, like some Baha’is. I believe that the Christian mainstream understanding of the Bible is wrong on certain points.

Un-mince as you wish but I have not ran into a single Baha'i that wasn't extremely polite I hope you don't break that record. Ok, you think Christians get their own scriptures wrong (which is required by your faith) so lets see which ones.

I do not believe that God ever came to earth. God is an immaterial Being, so He cannot come to earth. God cannot incarnate His Essence and reveal it to man because God is beyond anything that can ever be recounted or perceived by anyone.

Your personal preference whether God came to earth or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is the evidence that shows his coming here was more probable than not. IOW the record of Christ's life. God is spirit but he is also capable of all logically possible acts and it is logically possible a spirit could put on the physical form of a man. Any God that couldn't is less of a God than mine. To say that people saw Jesus is not to say they comprehended him in his entirety. So we agree but this still causes no problem for my worldview.

So you are okay with Jesus being a Manifestation of God and not God incarnated in the flesh?

First you must understand what it is I think God is. I believe God is one being composed of 3 persons. There is nothing logically incoherent about this. How it occurred is a divine mystery but there is nothing irreconcilable about it. I believe one of those equally divine beings assumed the roll of a human so that we could better relate to him despite being divine. Jesus was not the father but he was equally divine. Same with the Holy Spirit but he didn't assume a human body. So keep this in mind. One being, composed of 3 persons all equally divine.

If fact you could even argue that seeing Jesus is not to see God because his crude flesh was not his divine spirit (or essence). Thinking of things in this way is the only way your verses and my verses harmonize.

This I can pretty much agree to. When Jesus came to earth his full divinity was shrouded in some mysterious way which meant we were not perceiving his full divinity. How much do you think you could relate to a God in his full magisterium? So yes, seeing Jesus was not to witness his full divinity. Maybe his acts approached deity but not his appearance.

I agree that seeing Jesus is not to see God because the Essence of God cannot become a man in the flesh. That is why Jesus cannot be God. Jesus was a Manifestation of God, a perfect mirror image of God. Jesus was a divine man sent by God who brought the Holy Spirit. God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus and Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Holy Spirit is not a part of God, it is the Bounty of God, an emanation from God that God sent to Jesus.

Seeing Jesus is to see God but not to see him in his entirety. It was God just in a shrouded form. No Jesus manifestation was not a perfect reflection of the fathers majesty. For example he said he didn't even know when the last day would be and he also struggled with his flesh in the garden. He was fully God but his full Godhood was not on display. About the Holy Spirit he at least said the holy spirit would not come to minister to man unless he himself left. So I don't understand exactly what that meant but your understanding of the bible doesn't seem to be accurate here. Also my understanding is that Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity and not just some "bounty" of God.

God is forever one and cannot be divided into parts.

“And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192 [/quote] No offence but I consider Bahaullah a false prophet (and I also hate trying to type his name) and so can do no other than consign his writing to the dust bin. That sucks for you but what else can I possibly do. You forced to contend with me on only shared ground and the only ground we share is the bible so posting Baha'i writings just doesn't have any effect on me.​

You can think of God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit working together as a “team” in order to get the Gospel message out to humanity. A team has various members but they are separate yet connected in purpose. The Essence of God is separate from Jesus and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit emanates from God’s Essence and is reflected in Jesus. Jesus was a Mediator between God and man, who brought the Holy Spirit and the Gospel message to humanity. Notice that the following verse says that there is one God and one mediator BETWEEN God and man.

I can agree with most of this. I believe God is one being composed of 3 persons with identical essences, what makes the persons is having distinct wills, but these distinct wills are in perfect harmony. Yes they do take on differing actions but each is fully divine.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Yes one being, one God. Composed of 3 persons.​

Baha’is believer there were other mediators at different times in history, but that during the Dispensation of Jesus, Jesus was the only mediator, the only way to access God, which is why the Bible says:

I believe Jesus is and was the only true mediator (if by mediator you mean the messiah who would take away the sins of man) who has ever existed. But if you mean mediator as in (someone who God spoke through) then I think there have been many mediators including the other authors of the bible that existed during Jesus'' time. Depends on what you mean by mediator.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No mediators but Christ then, before, and after assuming you mean savior by mediator.
​

Words have definitions but in context they can mean different things. Flesh generally only has one meaning, but the word spirit and the word essence can have different meanings to different people, and what they mean depends upon the context in which they are used. So what do you mean by 100% flesh and 100% spirit? What do you mean that only his spiritual form is his divine essence?

Yes his soul was 100% divine and his flesh was 100% like mine. His flesh had all the weaknesses that our does but his divine spirit always conquered those weaknesses.

What gave you the idea that only God can forgive sins? Jesus had the power of God that God gave Him and God gave Jesus the power to forgive sins. As Jesus said in Mark 2:10 “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,).”

The bible gave me that idea. It also has a form of obvious logic to it. Sin's ultimate debt is to God, it's only to other sin a secondary sense. Now the verse you quoted is one I use to show that Jesus was God. Since only God could and did forgive sins (in an ultimate sense) then that makes Jesus God. You won't even find the major prophets forgiving sins in their own name or power. Even the high priest of Israel could only push sin's debt forward a year every year until Christ arrived to blot it out completely.

But the scribes were mistaken because they did not believe that Jesus had been given the power – by God -- to forgive sins. [/quote[ Correct the scribes were wrong. This can even be seen in a neat way. God placed his stamp of approval on Christ by raising him from the dead, those scribes are still smoldering in their graves.

The words soul and spirit can be used interchangeably in this context. That is what I said; the soul (spirit) of Jesus has always existed (for eternity) because it was in the spiritual world, which has always existed, since the spiritual world (heaven) is without beginning or end. I agree that the soul (spirit) of Jesus was only once he manifested on earth and that Jesus was given a body.

That is up for debate. Many feel we are like God, triune. The spirit and soul being two distinct things. I personally have no position on that. You said that Jesus soul was only manifested once he appeared on earth which seems to contradict everything else you said here. I will just chalk it up as a typing mistake.

Where the Baha’i view differs from the traditional Christian view is that we do not believe that the body of Jesus resurrected from the grave and that Jesus was then given another “perfect body” and we do not thus believe that all believers will resurrect from physical graves and be given a perfect body. Baha’is believe that the physical body once dead remains dead but that when the physical body dies the soul leaves the body and wings its flight to the spiritual world (heaven). In heaven, the soul takes on another form, a new body which is comprised of heavenly elements that exist in the heavenly realm. Nobody knows what the realm is like so words fail to describe it. So yes, Baha’is believe that we get a new body after we die but we do not believe it is a physical body because a physical body is not needed in a purely spiritual realm, which is what heaven is.

Seems like the only meaningfull difference here seems to be one of timing. There is nothing I hear worthy of argument.

1Cor 15 does not have the resurrected Jesus with a body. In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Some Christians believe that Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection and that is what Baha’is also believe. http://www.religioustolerance.org/resur_lt.htm

I don't know about the one verse you posted (not all verses deal with resurrection) but I can give you more verses than you will want to read showing Jesus had a resurrected (perfect) body if you desire them.

This post is growing beyond my ability to control. I think I will break it into half here. Continued below:

 

[1robin]

@Trailblazer

Continued from above:

That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies. That does not mean Jesus’ soul (spirit) was brought back to life (because the soul cannot die, so it does not need to be brought back to life); it means that the Cause of Christ (what He taught and represented) were brought back to life after three days... Had it NOT been brought back to life you would still be in your sins because it was the Cause of Christ that needed to be brought back to life in order to save people from their sins... People needed to get the Gospel message that Jesus taught and the disciples needed to carry that far and wide. Their faith in Jesus needed to be renewed (resurrected).

The bible does not agree with your idea about the soul going to spiritual realms when the body dies. The bible describes death as a sleep like state. That is why it says that a trumpet will wake all the dead on the day of judgment. It also says our death will pass like the twinkling of an eye. If what Christ taught was brought back to life after three days that was a secondary meaning. This is very complex stuff but Christian second death (Hell) is separation from God. That is what Christ suffered for us so we won't have to. When his earthly body died in a sense Christ suffered hell (separation from God) in our place. The bible says he went to hell and took the keys to it away from Satan. As I said it would take me at least oen post to lay this doctrine out but what the bible says was brought back after three days was Christ's union with the father. If you want to really cover this stuff we would have to concentrate on it alone, it's complex stuff.

In 1 Corinthians 15:12-22, Paul was referring to a spiritual resurrection. That Jesus was raised up means His spirit was resurrected, brought back to life. If Christ’s spirit was not brought back to life, then your faith would be in vain and you would still be in your sins. “22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” means that all shall be made spiritually alive, not physically rise and be alive in bodies.

16 For if the dead rise not and 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead refer to Christ’s spiritual resurrection, not to anyone rising from graves.

“According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 222​

This is all about spiritual death, not physical death. As I said above, bodies once dead do not rise from graves. When we die, our souls leave the body and go to the spiritual world, where they continue to exist for eternity. The souls who are spiritually alive go to heaven the ones who are spiritually dead go to.... well, I do not know where they go. It has been called hell but it is a state of the soul that is distant from God, or even hates God, not a geographical location. Those souls might still have a chance to get close to God by reaching out to God for His mercy or by the prayers of others. There is no guarantee, and that is why it is best to get to know God and get close to God before we die.

Sorry but I am running out of time tonight. Could I ask you to pick one or two subjects so we may sufficiently cover them? Your just touching on so many very deep subjects that I can't really do justice to any one of them. Would you like to discuss resurrection bodies, what happened to Christ while dead, what his resurrection means, spiritual verses physical death, etc....? We don't have to leave any of them out but we do need to slow down and take one at a time. If you do not agree to this and I can remember I will try and go back and at least answer the parts of this post I couldn't get to.

God Bless, 1robin

 

[Truly Enlightened]

History cannot prove what will happen in the future because history does not HAVE TO repeat itself. You cannot know it will fail unless you are God or a Messenger of God (Prophet) because you cannot SEE into the future. There are many reasons why the new world order will succeed, not the least of which is that it has been foreordained by God. How long it will take to establish will depend upon how long it takes for humans to change and do the work necessary to create it.

Nobody will be asking anyone to do anything. Free will is sacrosanct. People will eventually choose to do what is for the good of the whole as opposed to clinging to their older religions with their cultural beliefs, customs, rituals, behavior, habits, practices, etc. And it is not as if they cannot still retain their individual culture and customs and also be part of a larger purpose.

Why would it have to be perfect? Nobody is perfect but that does not preclude a new world order and striving towards noble goals. We are living in the very early stages of the building of the new world order; the foundation has barely been laid down. It will take hundreds of years, maybe thousands, to achieve this. It will require the raising up of a new race of men.

“At the heart of this system was what Bahá’u’lláh termed a “new Covenant” between God and humankind. The distinguishing feature of humanity’s coming of age is that, for the first time in its history, the entire human race is consciously involved, however dimly, in the awareness of its own oneness and of the earth as a single homeland. This awakening opens the way to a new relationship between God and humankind. As the peoples of the world embrace the spiritual authority inherent in the guidance of the Revelation of God for this age, Bahá’u’lláh said, they will find in themselves a moral empowerment which human effort alone has proven incapable of generating. “A new race of men” will emerge as the result of this relationship, and the work of building a global civilization will begin.”
(Bahá’í International Community, 1992 May 29, Statement on Bahá’u’lláh, p. 26)

“In this age humanity has strayed far from the path of truth, and the call of Bahá’u’lláh to recognize Him as the viceregent of God on earth has fallen on deaf ears. But a careful study of His writings leads us to believe that His Revelation, being the culmination of past Revelations and one which has ushered in the Day of God Himself, will exert such a potent influence upon mankind as a whole that eventually all the peoples of the world will recognize His station of their own free will and embrace His cause of their own volition. And this in turn will bring about, in the distant future, the appearance of a new race of men whose noble character and spiritual virtues we, in this age, are unable to visualize.”
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 3)

New Race of Men​

The World Order of Baha’u’llah is not a political system. It is a divinely ordained system. The difference between it and those you cited is that it has God behind it, so it cannot fail. If the Baha’is fail, God will raise up others who will build it. That is somewhere in the Baha’i Writings, but I cannot find the quote.

In the future the principles of Baha’u’llah will be voluntarily adopted by governments and that will constitute the new world order.

In the future, people will freely choose to be part of one religion. By the time that occurs, the “one religion” might not even be called the Baha’i Faith, because more Messengers will come in the future and establish more new religions. New teachings and Laws will be revealed according to the needs of the times, but all future dispensations for the next 500,000 years will be under the shadow of Baha’u’llah since He inaugurated in the new religious cycle, the Cycle of Fulfillment.

History, common sense, intuition, logic, inductive/deductive reasoning, facts, and cause and effect, are the tools we used to determine the probability of history repeating itself. Introducing the term "prove" is only a distraction. Nothing can prove(absolutely) anything. At best, these tools can only indicate a very high degree of certainty. So hiding behind absolute certainty(proof), is no better than saying that I am right, because you can't PROVE I am wrong. Again, another fallacy. Because we can't see into the future, doesn't mean that anything is possible by default. This is the position of all theistic and metaphysical claims, UNFALSIBILITY. What most religious proponents fail to understand because of their bias and closed minds, is that history can't prove that a new world order is not possible, but it also can't prove that it IS possible. Since there are no new world orders in existence, history must rely only on the failures of past attempts.

I really don't see how it is possible for anyone to still retain their habits, practices, beliefs, customs, rituals, and nuances of their particular culture, and still be part of this new world order. Since this new order carries with it, its own religiosity and practices. With all the positive and negative behavioral reinforcements, and other social, psychological and biological constraints, free will is only an illusion. People can easily be manipulated and controlled, especially if you tell them what they want to hear. Confirmation bias, repetition, and cognitive dissonance, are also very powerful tools for persuasions.

It is becoming painfully clear that you only believe that your claims are true. If your evidence is in the form of scriptural hearsay, or an appeal to the supernatural, then you have no evidence at all. If this belief floats your boat, then enjoy the ride. But I personally would prepare myself for a stormy reality check. Also, both history and the Bible have clearly demonstrated how God has failed. Finally, why wouldn't one Messenger be enough? Does His Messengers have a shelf life? Once you start "quote-mining" from scripture, the argument is over. Now you are simply proselytizing and sermonizing. Both are against the rules of this forum. Either demonstrate the validity of your claims, or stop wasting both our times.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sure, I would want to be saved from danger and I would let a fairy save me.

I want to go alittle further, if you dont mind.

Since salvation is higher importance than the nature and existence of the fairy, would its existence be present only because it helped you or even if it didnt help you, its presence is there regardless if it is real or not?

Is it more acceptance of a stranger until you were saved to know about it, or what was the motivator to trust something (a stranger)-was it just to save your life or is there something else involved while you are hangng off the cliff?