Questions for Atheists and Agnostics

[Trailblazer]

History, common sense, intuition, logic, inductive/deductive reasoning, facts, and cause and effect, are the tools we used to determine the probability of history repeating itself. Introducing the term "prove" is only a distraction. Nothing can prove(absolutely) anything. At best, these tools can only indicate a very high degree of certainty.

Nobody can predict the future, and certainly not with a high degree of certainty. That is why they don’t try to.

So hiding behind absolute certainty(proof), is no better than saying that I am right, because you can't PROVE I am wrong. Again, another fallacy. Because we can't see into the future, doesn't mean that anything is possible by default.

I never said I was right because you can’t prove me wrong. I never even said I am right, although I believe I am right. I only ever said I believe it because Baha’u’llah wrote it. The future of humanity is not something I even think about unless it comes up in conversation on a forum.

Anything IS possible in the future because we cannot predict the future. We certainly cannot predict human behavior because humans can and do change over time. Just because they have not changed that much ye does not mean they never will.

This is the position of all theistic and metaphysical claims, UNFALSIBILITY. What most religious proponents fail to understand because of their bias and closed minds, is that history can't prove that a new world order is not possible, but it also can't prove that it IS possible. Since there are no new world orders in existence, history must rely only on the failures of past attempts.

Do you know any historians who are trying to predict the futures? You have free will so you can go ahead and believe that history will repeat itself and humans will never change. I have free will so I have chosen to believe that humans can and will change over time. I can already see a difference in people from when I was a child and that is only a five decades. I never said a new world order would be built overnight. It will take a long time, maybe hundreds of years or more, we cannot know how long it will take.

I really don't see how it is possible for anyone to still retain their habits, practices, beliefs, customs, rituals, and nuances of their particular culture, and still be part of this new world order.

It is possible because an important principle of the Baha’i Faith is unity in diversity, so people can be unified and still retain their individuality. They won’t retain all of their outdated practices, beliefs, customs, and rituals because they won’t want them anymore when they learn of a better way that is more suitable for this new age in history. But they can retain the uniqueness of their own culture and still be part of one world that is unified.

Since this new order carries with it, its own religiosity and practices. With all the positive and negative behavioral reinforcements, and other social, psychological and biological constraints, free will is only an illusion. People can easily be manipulated and controlled, especially if you tell them what they want to hear. Confirmation bias, repetition, and cognitive dissonance, are also very powerful tools for persuasions.

People cannot be manipulated and controlled unless they allow themselves to be. But the Baha’is are not going to try to manipulate and control anyone anyway. That goes totally against the principles of the Baha’i Faith.

Free will is not an illusion. Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity. I do not believe that is the case. I believe we have freedom to act within parameters.

It is becoming painfully clear that you only believe that your claims are true. If your evidence is in the form of scriptural hearsay, or an appeal to the supernatural, then you have no evidence at all. If this belief floats your boat, then enjoy the ride. But I personally would prepare myself for a stormy reality check. Also, both history and the Bible have clearly demonstrated how God has failed. Finally, why wouldn't one Messenger be enough? Does His Messengers have a shelf life? Once you start "quote-mining" from scripture, the argument is over. Now you are simply proselytizing and sermonizing. Both are against the rules of this forum. Either demonstrate the validity of your claims, or stop wasting both our times.

The only evidence of God is the Messengers of God and the scriptures are part of that evidence.

The Bible did not fail. It served its purpose and helped humanity evolve spiritually. It got humanity down the road until Muhammad came to earth and then the Qur’an got a lot more people down the road... Now we have a new revelation from God that will take us into the new age. There will be more Messengers in the future, as they are needed.

Of course we need more than one Messenger of God throughout history because people change and the world around them changes, so they need a new message and new social teachings and laws.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

I cannot demonstrate what I believe the way you want it demonstrated. Moreover, I am not trying to prove anything. I just respond to posts posted to me. If they are not posted to me directly I rarely respond because I do not have the time.

 

[Trailblazer]

I want to go alittle further, if you dont mind.

Since salvation is higher importance than the nature and existence of the fairy, would its existence be present only because it helped you or even if it didnt help you, its presence is there regardless if it is real or not?

Is it more acceptance of a stranger until you were saved to know about it, or what was the motivator to trust something (a stranger)-was it just to save your life or is there something else involved while you are hangng off the cliff?

I would not stop to analyze the motivation. I would just be thinking about saving my life. Preservation of life is instinctual.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Nobody can predict the future, and certainly not with a high degree of certainty. That is why they don’t try to.

I never said I was right because you can’t prove me wrong. I never even said I am right, although I believe I am right. I only ever said I believe it because Baha’u’llah wrote it. The future of humanity is not something I even think about unless it comes up in conversation on a forum.

Anything IS possible in the future because we cannot predict the future. We certainly cannot predict human behavior because humans can and do change over time. Just because they have not changed that much ye does not mean they never will.

Do you know any historians who are trying to predict the futures? You have free will so you can go ahead and believe that history will repeat itself and humans will never change. I have free will so I have chosen to believe that humans can and will change over time. I can already see a difference in people from when I was a child and that is only a five decades. I never said a new world order would be built overnight. It will take a long time, maybe hundreds of years or more, we cannot know how long it will take.

It is possible because an important principle of the Baha’i Faith is unity in diversity, so people can be unified and still retain their individuality. They won’t retain all of their outdated practices, beliefs, customs, and rituals because they won’t want them anymore when they learn of a better way that is more suitable for this new age in history. But they can retain the uniqueness of their own culture and still be part of one world that is unified.

People cannot be manipulated and controlled unless they allow themselves to be. But the Baha’is are not going to try to manipulate and control anyone anyway. That goes totally against the principles of the Baha’i Faith.

Free will is not an illusion. Humans have the will/ability to make choices based upon their desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free they are varies with the situation. Certainly what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints. However, we have the ability to make choices. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity. I do not believe that is the case. I believe we have freedom to act within parameters.

The only evidence of God is the Messengers of God and the scriptures are part of that evidence.

The Bible did not fail. It served its purpose and helped humanity evolve spiritually. It got humanity down the road until Muhammad came to earth and then the Qur’an got a lot more people down the road... Now we have a new revelation from God that will take us into the new age. There will be more Messengers in the future, as they are needed.

Of course we need more than one Messenger of God throughout history because people change and the world around them changes, so they need a new message and new social teachings and laws.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213​

I cannot demonstrate what I believe the way you want it demonstrated. Moreover, I am not trying to prove anything. I just respond to posts posted to me. If they are not posted to me directly I rarely respond because I do not have the time.

There are no examples in history of flying elephants or invisible dragons either. Do you think that history can't predict, with any high degree of certainty, that these things WON'T happen in the future? Why not? Simply repeating what I have already stated, is not a response.

Do you know any historians who are trying to predict the futures? You have free will so you can go ahead and believe that history will repeat itself and humans will never change. I have free will so I have chosen to believe that humans can and will change over time. I can already see a difference in people from when I was a child and that is only a five decades

Purposely stating the opposite of what I've said, is just desperation. I said that history teaches us how to avoid the same mistakes. Although it doesn't always work. But there is no need to create a straw man over it. But it is entertaining watching you argue with the straw man you created.

It is possible because an important principle of the Baha’i Faith is unity in diversity, so people can be unified and still retain their individuality. They won’t retain all of their outdated practices, beliefs, customs, and rituals because they won’t want them anymore when they learn of a better way that is more suitable for this new age in history. But they can retain the uniqueness of their own culture and still be part of one world that is unified.

You don't seem to see just how strange, naïve, ignorant, and fanatical this sounds. Do you really think that people will eventually abandon their own cultural beliefs, practices, traditions, languages, social and personal behavior, and accept by default that,

• Women get a smaller share of inheritance compared to men

• Men have to pay dowry (women don’t)

• Men can practice polygamy (two wives) women cannot(have two husbands)

• Women cannot be members of the Universal House of Justice (UHJ), only men

* Station of Guardianship is only reserved for men

* Use of non-medical alcohol or drugs is not allowed

* All those over 15 must fast for 19 days, and pray from sun up to sun down in March

* Women are not allowed to be the head of the family

* Only men are allowed financial responsibilities

* Only men are allowed to inherit property

Ex-Baha'i Story: Extreme restrictions on personal freedom
http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai5.htm

I don't think that I'd be holding my breath, for this prediction to come true. This cult, like the hula hoop and a gallstone, will both eventually pass. There are just far too many religious beliefs out there, infecting children at younger and younger ages, for this prediction to have any practical merit. If you believe that we are acting within certain parameters, then I guess it isn't totally free will is it? The evidence is overwhelming that free will is just an illusion, but you have the free will to believe it or not. So the Messenger from a God, does have a shelf life, and must be replaced as men become smarter. What will He think of next. I take it that you have no problem with this line of reasoning?

 

[Trailblazer]

There are no examples in history of flying elephants or invisible dragons either. Do you think that history can't predict, with any high degree of certainty, that these things WON'T happen in the future? Why not? Simply repeating what I have already stated, is not a response.

Flying elephants or invisible dragons have never existed, they are not KNOWN to exist. Humans are known to exist and you cannot predict human behavior. You cannot base it upon past human behavior because there are unknown variables that can potentially affect human behavior.

You don't seem to see just how strange, naïve, ignorant, and fanatical this sounds. Do you really think that people will eventually abandon their own cultural beliefs, practices, traditions, languages, social and personal behavior, and accept by default that,

Women get a smaller share of inheritance compared to men

Men have to pay dowry (women don’t)

Men can practice polygamy (two wives) women cannot(have two husbands)

Women cannot be members of the Universal House of Justice (UHJ), only men

* Station of Guardianship is only reserved for men

* Use of non-medical alcohol or drugs is not allowed

* All those over 15 must fast for 19 days, and pray from sun up to sun down in March

* Women are not allowed to be the head of the family

* Only men are allowed financial responsibilities

* Only men are allowed to inherit property

Ex-Baha'i Story: Extreme restrictions on personal freedom
http://www.religioustolerance.org/bahai5.htm

Not all of what you are listing here is true. If you want to know the truth about Baha’i Laws, I suggest hopping over to the thread called How valuable is it to learn about other Faiths? That is where the Baha’is are hanging out and you can ask them which ones of these are true. Men are not allowed to have more than one wife and there is no Guardianship. I do not believe that women are not allowed to be the head of the family or that only men are allowed financial responsibilities. I am responsible for all the finances in my family.

I don't think that I'd be holding my breath, for this prediction to come true. This cult, like the hula hoop and a gallstone, will both eventually pass. There are just far too many religious beliefs out there, infecting children at younger and younger ages, for this prediction to have any practical merit. If you believe that we are acting within certain parameters, then I guess it isn't totally free will is it? The evidence is overwhelming that free will is just an illusion, but you have the free will to believe it or not. So the Messenger from a God, does have a shelf life, and must be replaced as men become smarter. What will He think of next. I take it that you have no problem with this line of reasoning?

You do not have to hold your breath because it won’t come true within your lifetime. But it will eventually come to pass because it is the Will of God.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249​

I do not care if people “like” the Baha’i Laws. They do not have to become Baha’is unless they want to. Everyone has free will because that is how we were created. At least at the stage of development society is now at, people are too selfish to give up what they want for God, their unbridled sex, their alcohol, etc. but that says more about them than it says about the Baha’i Faith. Their personal freedom matters more to them than God, how utterly pathetic. MY personal freedom – that says it all. The saddest thing of all is that they do not even realize how selfish they are because they are too selfish to realize it.

There is no evidence that we do not have free will but there is evidence that we have free will. If you had no free will you could not even choose to post on this forum. You could not have chosen your profession, chosen to get married, chosen to have children, etc. Everything that happens to us happens because we make a choice.

The Messenger of God does not have a shelf life but His dispensation has a shelf life.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Flying elephants or invisible dragons have never existed, they are not KNOWN to exist. Humans are known to exist and you cannot predict human behavior. You cannot base it upon past human behavior because there are unknown variables that can potentially affect human behavior.

Not all of what you are listing here is true. If you want to know the truth about Baha’i Laws, I suggest hopping over to the thread called How valuable is it to learn about other Faiths? That is where the Baha’is are hanging out and you can ask them which ones of these are true. Men are not allowed to have more than one wife and there is no Guardianship. I do not believe that women are not allowed to be the head of the family or that only men are allowed financial responsibilities. I am responsible for all the finances in my family.

You do not have to hold your breath because it won’t come true within your lifetime. But it will eventually come to pass because it is the Will of God.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249​

I do not care if people “like” the Baha’i Laws. They do not have to become Baha’is unless they want to. Everyone has free will because that is how we were created. At least at the stage of development society is now at, people are too selfish to give up what they want for God, their unbridled sex, their alcohol, etc. but that says more about them than it says about the Baha’i Faith. Their personal freedom matters more to them than God, how utterly pathetic. MY personal freedom – that says it all. The saddest thing of all is that they do not even realize how selfish they are because they are too selfish to realize it.

There is no evidence that we do not have free will but there is evidence that we have free will. If you had no free will you could not even choose to post on this forum. You could not have chosen your profession, chosen to get married, chosen to have children, etc. Everything that happens to us happens because we make a choice.

The Messenger of God does not have a shelf life but His dispensation has a shelf life.

No "new religious world order" has ever been KNOWN to exist in the past, or still exist in the present. Adding that humans exist(not known to exist) or about their changing behavior, is totally irrelevant to learning from the mistakes of history. Again we are not talking about successes of world religious attempts, we are talking about their failures. History is full of these failures. The very fact that there are none in the past and present, should be a good indication of its failure in the future. But to the irrational, anything is still possible despite the evidence. It's been almost two generations(since 1844) since this Iranian religion was formed. I have a strong feeling that each generations will be parroting your same misguided sense of optimism.

If it is the will of God that a new world order be established here on earth, then what is He waiting on? Is His will less important than our will? If He thinks that free will in humans are so important, then why would He condemn Atheist to eternal damnation for exercising their free will? Or, does He think Atheist would want to choose eternal damnation? It also doesn't matter if any, or all of the Baha'i restrictions are true or not, they still undermine human free will. Feigning indifference is not really that convincing.

The only thing you have stated, is that people will somehow decide on their own to become part of this new world order. Your only reason is that another human(Messenger) tells you what God has told him. This human writes it down, claims that it is from God Himself, and a whole new belief system is created. And, you see nothing wrong with this. I may be blind and gullible to many things, but when I'm drowning in a sea of red flags, only abject ignorance and cognitive dissonance, would prevent me seeing the obvious. I think that you are so far down the rabbit hole, that repetition and misrepresentation are your only mode of argument. And, if you can't see that we do not have the free will to do anything we want, then you are even further down the rabbit hole than I thought. Even the US Constitution is dynamic and changes over time, to keep up with changes in society. I guess that the Messenger is not that dynamic, and needs to be replaced from time to time. I suppose you don't see anything strange about this either?

 

[Trailblazer]

No "new religious world order" has ever been KNOWN to exist in the past, or still exist in the present. Adding that humans exist(not known to exist) or about their changing behavior, is totally irrelevant to learning from the mistakes of history. Again we are not talking about successes of world religious attempts, we are talking about their failures. History is full of these failures. The very fact that there are none in the past and present, should be a good indication of its failure in the future. But to the irrational, anything is still possible despite the evidence. It's been almost two generations(since 1844) since this Iranian religion was formed. I have a strong feeling that each generations will be parroting your same misguided sense of optimism.

The fact that there has never been a “new religious world order” in the past is no proof that will not be one in the future.

Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets and he closed off the Prophetic Cycle of religion which began with Adam. In 1844, the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new religious Cycle called the Baha’i Cycle (or the Cycle of Fulfillment) because all the prophecies in the Bible and all the prophecies of all the religions of the past will be fulfilled during this Cycle.

This is a new Cycle of religion, a new age of mankind, the likes of which mankind has never seen before! The Dispensations of the past have been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah... The Baha’i Faith is a new revelation from God. It is a new religion, unlike any other religion in history.

Do you watch any TV news? Do you see what is going on in the United States, in the world? The old world order is being rolled up, just as Baha’u’llah predicted and a new world order will arise in its stead:

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7​

Unfortunately, only Baha’is understand what is happening in the world and why, but that will change over time when people finally recognize Baha’u’llah and realize everything I said above...

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4​

If it is the will of God that a new world order be established here on earth, then what is He waiting on? Is His will less important than our will? If He thinks that free will in humans are so important, then why would He condemn Atheist to eternal damnation for exercising their free will? Or, does He think Atheist would want to choose eternal damnation? It also doesn't matter if any, or all of the Baha'i restrictions are true or not, they still undermine human free will. Feigning indifference is not really that convincing.

God is not going to establish the new world order. God is waiting on humans to establish it. That is why we have free will. God sent Baha’u’llah to reveal the set of blueprint instructions necessary to establish it. Now the ball is in our court.

There is no eternal damnation. That is a Christian belief, not a Baha’i belief.Baha’isbelieve that heaven and hell are relative states of the soul, nearness to God and distance from God, respectively. Obviously, if one does not believe in God they cannot have knowledge of God, so they cannot be close to God. That is why knowledge of God is so important. The only way to know God is through the Messenger of God; in this age Baha’u’llah. The way we draw near to God is by observing the teachings and laws that Baha’u’llah has revealed. Obviously, neither one of these can take place without recognition of Baha’u’llah.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5​

After the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and goes to the spiritual world, which has been referred to as heaven and hell. All human souls will continue to exist forever so it is just a matter of what their state of their being will be. I cannot say what happens to Atheists after they die since the secrets of the afterlife have not been revealed.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345​

All we have been told is that confident believers will experience joy and gladness, but what that means exactly and how it will play out is a complete mystery. Only God knows.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346​

The only thing you have stated, is that people will somehow decide on their own to become part of this new world order. Your only reason is that another human(Messenger) tells you what God has told him. This human writes it down, claims that it is from God Himself, and a whole new belief system is created. And, you see nothing wrong with this.

Yes, you understand that correctly. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. In all the five years I have been posting to Atheists 24/7, no Atheist has ever been able to give me one logical reason why there is anything wrong with God using Messengers to communicate. How else do you think a God could communicate to humanity except through a human who has divine qualities?

I may be blind and gullible to many things, but when I'm drowning in a sea of red flags, only abject ignorance and cognitive dissonance, would prevent me seeing the obvious. I think that you are so far down the rabbit hole, that repetition and misrepresentation are your only mode of argument.

This is the kind of thing Atheists do, label believers as irrational, but throwing out descriptors such as abject ignorance and cognitive dissonance, repetition and misrepresentation do not say a single thing. I am still waiting for a REASON why God would not use Messengers to communicate or a better way that God could communicate.... All these years posting to Atheists and I am still waiting for a reason-based argument.

And, if you can't see that we do not have the free will to do anything we want, then you are even further down the rabbit hole than I thought.

I never said that we can do “anything” we want to do. I said we have free will but that it is constrained by many factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free we are varies with every given situation we find ourselves in. However, we have the ability to make choices within parameters. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity. If humans did not have free will how could we be responsible for our actions and held accountable in a court of law?

Even the US Constitution is dynamic and changes over time, to keep up with changes in society. I guess that the Messenger is not that dynamic, and needs to be replaced from time to time. I suppose you don't see anything strange about this either?

We need a new Messenger in every age because He is human as well as divine so He is mortal. The messages revealed by God to the Messengers are indeed dynamic, and they change in every new age. This is called Progressive Revelation.

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_Baha'i​

 

[Truly Enlightened]

The fact that there has never been a “new religious world order” in the past is no proof that will not be one in the future.

Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets and he closed off the Prophetic Cycle of religion which began with Adam. In 1844, the Bab and Baha’u’llah ushered in a new religious Cycle called the Baha’i Cycle (or the Cycle of Fulfillment) because all the prophecies in the Bible and all the prophecies of all the religions of the past will be fulfilled during this Cycle.

This is a new Cycle of religion, a new age of mankind, the likes of which mankind has never seen before! The Dispensations of the past have been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha’u’llah... The Baha’i Faith is a new revelation from God. It is a new religion, unlike any other religion in history.

Do you watch any TV news? Do you see what is going on in the United States, in the world? The old world order is being rolled up, just as Baha’u’llah predicted and a new world order will arise in its stead:

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7​

Unfortunately, only Baha’is understand what is happening in the world and why, but that will change over time when people finally recognize Baha’u’llah and realize everything I said above...

“Dear friends! The powerful operations of this titanic upheaval are comprehensible to none except such as have recognized the claims of both Bahá’u’lláh and the Báb. Their followers know full well whence it comes, and what it will ultimately lead to. Though ignorant of how far it will reach, they clearly recognize its genesis, are aware of its direction, acknowledge its necessity, observe confidently its mysterious processes, ardently pray for the mitigation of its severity, intelligently labor to assuage its fury, and anticipate, with undimmed vision, the consummation of the fears and the hopes it must necessarily engender.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4​

God is not going to establish the new world order. God is waiting on humans to establish it. That is why we have free will. God sent Baha’u’llah to reveal the set of blueprint instructions necessary to establish it. Now the ball is in our court.

There is no eternal damnation. That is a Christian belief, not a Baha’i belief.Baha’isbelieve that heaven and hell are relative states of the soul, nearness to God and distance from God, respectively. Obviously, if one does not believe in God they cannot have knowledge of God, so they cannot be close to God. That is why knowledge of God is so important. The only way to know God is through the Messenger of God; in this age Baha’u’llah. The way we draw near to God is by observing the teachings and laws that Baha’u’llah has revealed. Obviously, neither one of these can take place without recognition of Baha’u’llah.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5​

After the physical body dies, the soul leaves the body and goes to the spiritual world, which has been referred to as heaven and hell. All human souls will continue to exist forever so it is just a matter of what their state of their being will be. I cannot say what happens to Atheists after they die since the secrets of the afterlife have not been revealed.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345​

All we have been told is that confident believers will experience joy and gladness, but what that means exactly and how it will play out is a complete mystery. Only God knows.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346​

Yes, you understand that correctly. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. In all the five years I have been posting to Atheists 24/7, no Atheist has ever been able to give me one logical reason why there is anything wrong with God using Messengers to communicate. How else do you think a God could communicate to humanity except through a human who has divine qualities?

This is the kind of thing Atheists do, label believers as irrational, but throwing out descriptors such as abject ignorance and cognitive dissonance, repetition and misrepresentation do not say a single thing. I am still waiting for a REASON why God would not use Messengers to communicate or a better way that God could communicate.... All these years posting to Atheists and I am still waiting for a reason-based argument.

I never said that we can do “anything” we want to do. I said we have free will but that it is constrained by many factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. How free we are varies with every given situation we find ourselves in. However, we have the ability to make choices within parameters. Otherwise, we would just be at the mercy of our past experiences and our heredity. If humans did not have free will how could we be responsible for our actions and held accountable in a court of law?

We need a new Messenger in every age because He is human as well as divine so He is mortal. The messages revealed by God to the Messengers are indeed dynamic, and they change in every new age. This is called Progressive Revelation.

Progressive revelation is a core teaching in the Bahá'í Faith that suggests that religious truth is revealed by God progressively and cyclically over time through a series of divine Messengers, and that the teachings are tailored to suit the needs of the time and place of their appearance.[1][2] Thus, the Bahá'í teachings recognize the divine origin of several world religions as different stages in the history of one religion, while believing that the revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is the most recent (though not the last—that there will never be a last), and therefore the most relevant to modern society.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_revelation_Baha'i​

Extending the meaning of my comments, only misrepresents my comments. No one has stated that the past can PROVE or DISPROVE what can happen in the future. Otherwise, humans will be able to fly non-stop from the US to London, without using a plane. Can you disprove this? The rest of your post is just more regurgitated, rote learned, parroted indoctrinations, proselytized testimonials, and scriptural quote-mining. Nothing factual.

I was talking about "free will", not the Christian religion. You totally missed my entire point. I was speaking to your claim of how important God views our free-will. Please re-read. You make up a story about a supernatural being, a divine Messenger from a God, some divine writings, and how a world-wide religious order is inevitable. You then expect that others will simply choose to accept what you say is true, because it is the Will of a God. If people think that your belief claims are just bat**** nuts, you claim that you are being insulted, persecuted, and misunderstood. If others choose to accept your belief claims, then they are the enlightened ones willing to adhere to another form of religious control. All this without providing any evidence to support your belief claims. From a scientific perspective this is totally illogical and irrational. Especially, since neither God or any Messenger is falsifiable. Also, what makes you think that God is incapable of speaking to us Himself? Do you personally know what God's limitations are?

Do you watch any TV news? Do you see what is going on in the United States, in the world? The old world order is being rolled up, just as Baha’u’llah predicted and a new world order will arise in its stead:

If you are an alarmist or fatalist, at least do your homework and exercise some common sense. You seem to lack perspective. Even if one murder occurred in every state, every day, in a country of 360 Million people, spread over a land mass of almost 10 Million square km, what do you think the odds of you becoming a victim? Just how much violence would you be aware of if it wasn't reported to you in some way through the media? I suspect very little. It is the media's job to peddle sensationalism to sell papers, or to increase its share of the audience. No critical thinker thinks that the world is LITERALLY sinking into chaos. But I will make a better, and more rational prediction. If we don't start addressing our population crisis before it reaches 11 Billion, a new world order will exist, but it certainly won't be religious.


​

 

[Trailblazer]

Extending the meaning of my comments, only misrepresents my comments. No one has stated that the past can PROVE or DISPROVE what can happen in the future.

I did not misrepresent your comments because I never said that you said that the past can PROVE or DISPROVE what can happen in the future. You did not say it could prove or disprove what can happen in the future but you stated that the past is a good indication of the future. That is what I responded to.

You said: “No "new religious world order" has ever been KNOWN to exist in the past, or still exist in the present. Adding that humans exist (not known to exist) or about their changing behavior, is totally irrelevant to learning from the mistakes of history. Again we are not talking about successes of world religious attempts, we are talking about their failures. History is full of these failures. The very fact that there are none in the past and present, should be a good indication of its failure in the future. But to the irrational, anything is still possible despite the evidence. It's been almost two generations(since 1844) since this Iranian religion was formed. I have a strong feeling that each generations will be parroting your same misguided sense of optimism.”

I never said that we could PROVE what will happen in the future. I only stated my beliefs about the future.

I was talking about "free will", not the Christian religion. You totally missed my entire point. I was speaking to your claim of how important God views our free-will. Please re-read. You make up a story about a supernatural being, a divine Messenger from a God, some divine writings, and how a world-wide religious order is inevitable. You then expect that others will simply choose to accept what you say is true, because it is the Will of a God.

Straw man. You are misrepresenting me.
I do not EXPECT anyone to accept that what I say is true and I have said that repeatedly on this forum.

I believe the new world order will come to pass because it is the Will of God. I do not expect anyone to believe that just because I do. Everyone has a brain and free will so everyone needs to make their own decision about what to believe or disbelieve.

If people think that your belief claims are just bat**** nuts, you claim that you are being insulted, persecuted, and misunderstood.

Another straw man. I never said I felt insulted, persecuted or misunderstood. I have said repeatedly that I do not care one iota what other people think of my beliefs.

If others choose to accept your belief claims, then they are the enlightened ones willing to adhere to another form of religious control.

Another straw man. I never said anything about enlightened ones.

All this without providing any evidence to support your belief claims. From a scientific perspective this is totally illogical and irrational. Especially, since neither God or any Messenger is falsifiable. Also, what makes you think that God is incapable of speaking to us Himself? Do you personally know what God's limitations are?

There is plenty of evidence to support my belief claims but there is no scientific evidence because scientific evidence does not exist for ANY religious claims. What is illogical and irrational is to EXPECT to have scientific evidence of God or any religious claims.

God is omnipotent so God has no limitations. It is not a matter of what God is capable of doing, it is a matter of what God CHOOSES to do and not do. God is omnipotent so God could speak to us so the FACT that He doesn’t means that He has chosen not to. God doeth whatsoever He willeth.

If you are an alarmist or fatalist, at least do your homework and exercise some common sense. You seem to lack perspective. Even if one murder occurred in every state, every day, in a country of 360 Million people, spread over a land mass of almost 10 Million square km, what do you think the odds of you becoming a victim? Just how much violence would you be aware of if it wasn't reported to you in some way through the media? I suspect very little. It is the media's job to peddle sensationalism to sell papers, or to increase its share of the audience. No critical thinker thinks that the world is LITERALLY sinking into chaos. But I will make a better, and more rational prediction. If we don't start addressing our population crisis before it reaches 11 Billion, a new world order will exist, but it certainly won't be religious.

If you cannot see that things have gotten much worse in recent years then you have your head in the sand.

Any new world order that comes into being will indeed be religious. It will not be Atheist, that’s for sure, since Atheism is on a sharp decline. There is no reason to believe that trend will change. Atheism saw its day in the 20th century mostly because of communism but with the decline of communism so goes Atheism.

The increase in Atheists we now see in the United States and Europe can be accounted for by the large number of people dropping out of Christianity, but that is not going to make much of a dent. Islam is growing much more rapidly than Christianity but eventually the Baha’i Faith will be the one world religion.

Statistics demonstrate that since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

Your personal preference whether God came to earth or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is the evidence that shows his coming here was more probable than not. IOW the record of Christ's life. God is spirit but he is also capable of all logically possible acts and it is logically possible a spirit could put on the physical form of a man. Any God that couldn't is less of a God than mine. To say that people saw Jesus is not to say they comprehended him in his entirety. So we agree but this still causes no problem for my worldview.

Your belief as to whether God came to earth or not is irrelevant. There is no evidence that shows that God came to earth, and there is no verifiable evidence that even says Jesus came to earth. Saying Jesus came to earth is not the same as saying God came to earth. It is a Christian doctrine that says the Jesus was God. A doctrine does not make Jesus into God.

I do not know what you mean that it is logically possible a spirit could put on the physical form of a man. Logic does not apply to God because an infinite God is outside of finite human logic. The question is not whether it is possible, the question is whether it happened and whether it makes any sense at all that God would become a man.

It is also not a matter of what God could do. It is a matter of what God did do. God only does what God wants to do, so just because God can do anything that does not mean God does everything God can do.

The verse says nothing about whether Jesus was comprehended. It says that nobody has ever seen God. We know that people saw Jesus so that means Jesus cannot be God. The fact that Christians tweaked the translation to say that Jesus is God is very telling, but only a few translations say that whereas the bulk say that Jesus declared God and showed us what God was like, implying Jesus was not God.

First you must understand what it is I think God is. I believe God is one being composed of 3 persons. There is nothing logically incoherent about this. How it occurred is a divine mystery but there is nothing irreconcilable about it. I believe one of those equally divine beings assumed the roll of a human so that we could better relate to him despite being divine. Jesus was not the father but he was equally divine. Same with the Holy Spirit but he didn't assume a human body. So keep this in mind. One being, composed of 3 persons all equally divine.

I do not believe that God can be divided up into parts (Persons). The Essence of God is one, like the sun. The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that emanates from God like rays of the sun. God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus. Jesus was a perfect mirror image of God and He reflected the rays of God to humanity. In that sense Jesus manifested God to humanity, made God known.

It is the Essence of God that cannot ever descend to earth because it is unknowable to anyone. Not even Jesus knew the Essence of God. The Attributes and the Will of God can be known and Jesus made them known.

If fact you could even argue that seeing Jesus is not to see God because his crude flesh was not his divine spirit (or essence). Thinking of things in this way is the only way your verses and my verses harmonize.

This I can pretty much agree to. When Jesus came to earth his full divinity was shrouded in some mysterious way which meant we were not perceiving his full divinity. How much do you think you could relate to a God in his full magisterium? So yes, seeing Jesus was not to witness his full divinity. Maybe his acts approached deity but not his appearance.

Seeing Jesus is to see God but not to see him in his entirety. It was God just in a shrouded form.

I agree that seeing Jesus was not seeing God in His entirety because the Essence of God can never be SEEN by anyone, nor can it ever be known. So you can think of it as being shrouded in the sense that it is hidden from us.

No Jesus manifestation was not a perfect reflection of the fathers majesty. For example he said he didn't even know when the last day would be and he also struggled with his flesh in the garden. He was fully God but his full Godhood was not on display. About the Holy Spirit he at least said the holy spirit would not come to minister to man unless he himself left. So I don't understand exactly what that meant but your understanding of the bible doesn't seem to be accurate here. Also my understanding is that Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity and not just some "bounty" of God.

Jesus was a perfect reflection of God’s Attributes (qualities) but not a perfect reflection of God’s Essence since God’s Essence can never be known to anyone.

As I said above, I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that was sent by God to Jesus, like rays of the sun that emanate from the sun (God). But I believe that the Holy Spirit is sent to ALL the Manifestations of God, not just to Jesus; so at the burning bush when Moses talked to God at the burning bush, that was God communicating to Moses via the Holy Spirit, and you can think of it as God sending the Holy Spirit to Moses, after which time Moses communicated to His people what He heard from God through the Holy Spirit.

I do not know how you think the “disembodied” Holy Spirit could minister to man and do all of what Jesus said it would do in the verses in John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16:8-11,13,14, namely: Teach you all things, call to remembrance what Jesus said, testify of Jesus, glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you, guide you into all truth, speak what He hears and shew you things to come, reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

I believe that the verses of John chapters 14, 15 and 16 that refer to the Comforter and the Spirit of truth are referring to a man (a Messenger/Manifestation of God) who would bring the Holy Spirit to humanity, and through the Holy Spirit this man would do what it says above in red italics. So Jesus was saying that He would pray to God to send this Comforter/Spirit of truth. Jesus was a Comforter, Baha’u’llah was another Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for hedwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and was witness to Jesus, but I do not want to make this post any longer so I won’t post the passage.

Jesus had to go away (to heaven) so He could send the Comforter from heaven. Jesus said that He had many things to say that those living in His day could not bear to hear because they were not ready to hear these things 2000 years ago; but by the time Baha’u’llah showed up humanity was ready to hear them.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

(CONTINUED ON NEXT POST...)

 

[Trailblazer]

I can agree with most of this. I believe God is one being composed of 3 persons with identical essences, what makes the persons is having distinct wills, but these distinct wills are in perfect harmony. Yes they do take on differing actions but each is fully divine.

I already covered this above, but to add to that I believe that the Will of God is identical to the Will of Jesus (or any Manifestation of God). I do not believe that the Holy Spirit has a Will of its own but rather it is an emanation from God that conveys the Will of God.

I believe Jesus is and was the only true mediator (if by mediator you mean the messiah who would take away the sins of man) who has ever existed. But if you mean mediator as in (someone who God spoke through) then I think there have been many mediators including the other authors of the bible that existed during Jesus'' time. Depends on what you mean by mediator.

Baha’is believe that all the Messengers of God (Manifestations of God) are mediators between God and man. Each one has a distinct mission from God to fulfill. Jesus was the mediator who had as His Mission to do as Baha’u’llah said: “the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”

Baha’u’llah had another mission, to pick up where Jesus left off and bring all of humankind together into one fold: John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

All Christians I have ever encountered have insisted that this means Jesus gathering the gentiles in his day, but that makes no sense since that verse is future tense. Baha’is believe it refers to the wider humanity, all of humanity. Obviously that could not be accomplished at Jesus’ first coming, when He walked the earth, because the whole world could not even communicate with each other. Obviously (to me), it refers to a future age in history, “there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

No mediators but Christ then, before, and after assuming you mean savior by mediator.

No, there was no more than one savior in the sense that Christians use the word, because there was no need for more than one savior, since that was the “mission” of Jesus, and once it was accomplished it was done, as it says somewhere in the NT. The difference between Christians and Baha’is is that we do not believe that there was no original sin to be saved from, but humanity has a propensity to sin, so we needed to be saved from that. This sums up what we believe Jesus did to save humanity:

That quote below summarizes the Baha’i belief on the primary significance of Jesus’ mission on earth, the remission of sins and the attainment to eternal life. It was the Word of God as well as thecross sacrifice that freed us from the chains of bondage. Christ gave us His teachings (profusion of His bounties) and then later died on the cross (suffered the greatest martyrdom) so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins”
Some Answered Questions, p. 125​

The bible gave me that idea. It also has a form of obvious logic to it. Sin's ultimate debt is to God, it's only to other sin a secondary sense. Now the verse you quoted is one I use to show that Jesus was God. Since only God could and did forgive sins (in an ultimate sense) then that makes Jesus God. You won't even find the major prophets forgiving sins in their own name or power. Even the high priest of Israel could only push sin's debt forward a year every year until Christ arrived to blot it out completely.

I can see you have a different definition of prophets so now is a good time for me to explain what Baha’is believe about prophets:

Question: How many kinds of divine Prophets are there?
Answer: There are three kinds of divine Prophets. One kind are the universal Manifestations, which are even as the sun. Through Their advent the world of existence is renewed, a new cycle is inaugurated, a new religion is revealed, souls are quickened to a new life, and East and West are flooded with light. These Souls are the universal Manifestations of God and have been sent forth to the entire world and the generality of mankind.

Another kind of Prophets are followers and promulgators, not leaders and law-givers, but they are nonetheless the recipients of the hidden inspirations of God. Yet another kind are Prophets Whose prophethood has been limited to a particular locality. But the universal Manifestations are all-encompassing: They are like the root, and all others are as the branches; they are like the sun, and all others are as the moon and the stars.
Additional Tablets, Extracts and Talks | Bahá’í Reference Library​

Jesus was a universal Manifestation, and note that it says “which are even as the sun.” That means they are like God, that what they speak is the Voice of God Himself and that they have power and authority conferred upon them by God. That is why Jesus had the power to forgive sins. Jesus was in all senses God, except that He was not the Essence of God, since that forever remains hidden:

“How wondrous is the unity of the Living, the Ever-Abiding God—a unity which is exalted above all limitations, that transcendeth the comprehension of all created things! He hath, from everlasting, dwelt in His inaccessible habitation of holiness and glory, and will unto everlasting continue to be enthroned upon the heights of His independent sovereignty and grandeur. How lofty hath been His incorruptible Essence, how completely independent of the knowledge of all created things, and how immensely exalted will it remain above the praise of all the inhabitants of the heavens and the earth!” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 261-262​

That is up for debate. Many feel we are like God, triune. The spirit and soul being two distinct things. I personally have no position on that. You said that Jesus soul was only manifested once he appeared on earth which seems to contradict everything else you said here. I will just chalk it up as a typing mistake.

I know that Christians believe that the soul is just the breath of life and that after we die physically the soul no longer exists, but Baha’is believe the soul is much more than that; it is the person himself, our consciousness, and what will continue on to the spiritual world (heaven) after we die physically. I do not want to get into a long explanation about that right now though... I just wanted to define it so I can explain what I mean by soul and spirit.

Every human being has a physical body and a rational soul (called a rational soul because it is responsible for our consciousness), and the soul can also be referred to as a spirit (with a small s). However, a Holy Manifestation of God such as Jesus also has a third station, the Divine Spirit (Holy Spirit), which is above and beyond what any ordinary human being has:

“Know that the Holy Manifestations, though They have the degrees of endless perfections, yet, speaking generally, have only three stations. The first station is the physical; the second station is the human, which is that of the rational soul; the third is that of the divine appearance and the heavenly splendor.

The physical station is phenomenal; it is composed of elements, and necessarily everything that is composed is subject to decomposition. It is not possible that a composition should not be disintegrated.

The second is the station of the rational soul, which is the human reality. This also is phenomenal, and the Holy Manifestations share it with all mankind.

The third station is that of the divine appearance and heavenly splendor: it is the Word of God, the Eternal Bounty, the Holy Spirit. It has neither beginning nor end, for these things are related to the world of contingencies and not to the divine world. For God the end is the same thing as the beginning.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 151-152​

Seems like the only meaningful difference here seems to be one of timing. There is nothing I hear worthy of argument.

Hmmmm.... This is pretty important, so I need to understand what you mean by timing. Baha’is believe that the physical body dies and remains dead but after that the soul leaves the body and goes to the spiritual world (heaven) and gets a new body assigned to it (as Baha’u’llah put it the soul will assume the form that best befits its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation). That form will be made up of heavenly elements that exist in heaven, not physical elements, because heaven is a purely spiritual realm and there is nothing physical there.

I don't know about the one verse you posted (not all verses deal with resurrection) but I can give you more verses than you will want to read showing Jesus had a resurrected (perfect) body if you desire them.

Maybe you should because that might help me understand what you mean when you say that you will have a resurrected (perfect) body which other Christians have referred to as a glorified physical body, a body like you believe Jesus had.

Sorry, but I am going to do it to you again, this got so long I had to split it up again. It was even longer which would have made three posts but I decided to edit it down some more.

 

[Trailblazer]

The bible does not agree with your idea about the soul going to spiritual realms when the body dies. The bible describes death as a sleep like state. That is why it says that a trumpet will wake all the dead on the day of judgment.

So, to try to simplify this, are you saying that the physical body that died and was buried stays asleep in the grave and then on the Day of Judgment (when Jesus returns) that body rises? If you have verses you can post those.

So, what will happen after all the bodies on earth rise from the grave? Do you believe that they will live for eternity on earth? How can the earth sustain all the people who had ever died? How could never people be born and live on earth if nobody ever dies again? What will happen to those who were not Christians when on the Day of Judgment?

Now, I will explain what Baha’is believe. Since I have discussed this so much with Christians I already have several versions written up and saved in Word documents.

God has us living on earth for a time, but not forever. This world is connected to the spiritual world in ways we cannot now understand, but those who have passed beyond the veil do understand. We were never meant to live in a physical world for eternity.

I believe the following verses are referring to a spiritual resurrection, rising to spiritual life, not to physical life.

John 11:23-27 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”​

Baha’u’llah wrote something very similar but note that He said “as dead” or “as the dead” which means it is as if they are physically dead but not actually physically dead. So He was using “dead” as a metaphor to mean lacking spiritual life.

“Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“He is indeed as one dead who, at the wondrous dawn of this Revelation, hath failed to be quickened by its soul-stirring breeze. He is indeed a captive who hath not recognized the Supreme Redeemer, but hath suffered his soul to be bound, distressed and helpless, in the fetters of his desires.

O My servants! Whoso hath tasted of this Fountain hath attained unto everlasting Life, and whoso hath refused to drink therefrom is even as the dead. Say: O ye workers of iniquity! Covetousness hath hindered you from giving a hearing ear unto the sweet voice of Him Who is the All-Sufficing. Wash it away from your hearts, that His Divine secret may be made known unto you. Behold Him manifest and resplendent as the sun in all its glory.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 169​

When the Jews failed to recognize Jesus when He came down from the heaven of the Will of God and was born from the womb of Mary, they remained spiritually dead. That is why Jesus said He was the resurrection, because He resurrected the Cause of God from what it had formerly been in the days of Moses. Now, in this new Day of God, those who have failed to recognize the return of the Christ Spirit, when it came in the Person of Baha’u’llah are spiritually dead, though they are still alive in a physical body. The shout has been raised and they turned away.

“Say: The heavens have been folded together, and the earth is held within His grasp, and the corrupt doers have been held by their forelock, and still they understand not. They drink of the tainted water, and know it not. Say: The shout hath been raised, andthe people have come forth from their graves, and arising, are gazing around them. Some have made haste to attain the court of the God of Mercy, others have fallen down on their faces in the fire of Hell, while still others are lost in bewilderment. The verses of God have been revealed, and yet they have turned away from them. His proof hath been manifested, and yet they are unaware of it.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 41-42​

It also says our death will pass like the twinkling of an eye. If what Christ taught was brought back to life after three days that was a secondary meaning.

So do you think that means that you will be raised form the dead in the twinkling of an eye?

This is very complex stuff but Christian second death (Hell) is separation from God.

That is what Baha’is believe, that hell is separation from God.

That is what Christ suffered for us so we won't have to. When his earthly body died in a sense Christ suffered hell (separation from God) in our place. The bible says he went to hell and took the keys to it away from Satan. As I said it would take me at least one post to lay this doctrine out but what the bible says was brought back after three days was Christ's union with the father. If you want to really cover this stuff we would have to concentrate on it alone, it's complex stuff.

I know some of this because Christians have told me but keep in mind I do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ and I do not believe that Satan exists as an entity aside from us. I believe that Satan refers to the satanic self, the lower selfish nature of man.

Sorry but I am running out of time tonight. Could I ask you to pick one or two subjects so we may sufficiently cover them? Your just touching on so many very deep subjects that I can't really do justice to any one of them. Would you like to discuss resurrection bodies, what happened to Christ while dead, what his resurrection means, spiritual verses physical death, etc....? We don't have to leave any of them out but we do need to slow down and take one at a time. If you do not agree to this and I can remember I will try and go back and at least answer the parts of this post I couldn't get to.

What I am most interested in are the questions I asked above. If later you want to explain resurrection bodies, what happened to Christ while dead, and what his resurrection means you can do that as you have time.

God Bless, Trailblazer

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I did not misrepresent your comments because I never said that you said that the past can PROVE or DISPROVE what can happen in the future. You did not say it could prove or disprove what can happen in the future but you stated that the past is a good indication of the future. That is what I responded to.

You said: “No "new religious world order" has ever been KNOWN to exist in the past, or still exist in the present. Adding that humans exist (not known to exist) or about their changing behavior, is totally irrelevant to learning from the mistakes of history. Again we are not talking about successes of world religious attempts, we are talking about their failures. History is full of these failures. The very fact that there are none in the past and present, should be a good indication of its failure in the future. But to the irrational, anything is still possible despite the evidence. It's been almost two generations(since 1844) since this Iranian religion was formed. I have a strong feeling that each generations will be parroting your same misguided sense of optimism.”

I never said that we could PROVE what will happen in the future. I only stated my beliefs about the future.

Straw man. You are misrepresenting me.
I do not EXPECT anyone to accept that what I say is true and I have said that repeatedly on this forum.

I believe the new world order will come to pass because it is the Will of God. I do not expect anyone to believe that just because I do. Everyone has a brain and free will so everyone needs to make their own decision about what to believe or disbelieve.

Another straw man. I never said I felt insulted, persecuted or misunderstood. I have said repeatedly that I do not care one iota what other people think of my beliefs.

Another straw man. I never said anything about enlightened ones.

There is plenty of evidence to support my belief claims but there is no scientific evidence because scientific evidence does not exist for ANY religious claims. What is illogical and irrational is to EXPECT to have scientific evidence of God or any religious claims.

God is omnipotent so God has no limitations. It is not a matter of what God is capable of doing, it is a matter of what God CHOOSES to do and not do. God is omnipotent so God could speak to us so the FACT that He doesn’t means that He has chosen not to. God doeth whatsoever He willeth.

If you cannot see that things have gotten much worse in recent years then you have your head in the sand.

Any new world order that comes into being will indeed be religious. It will not be Atheist, that’s for sure, since Atheism is on a sharp decline. There is no reason to believe that trend will change. Atheism saw its day in the 20th century mostly because of communism but with the decline of communism so goes Atheism.

The increase in Atheists we now see in the United States and Europe can be accounted for by the large number of people dropping out of Christianity, but that is not going to make much of a dent. Islam is growing much more rapidly than Christianity but eventually the Baha’i Faith will be the one world religion.

Statistics demonstrate that since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics show that from 1910-2010, the Baha’i Faith grew at a rate of 3.54%, whereas during that time Islam grew at a rate of 1.97% and Christianity grew at a rate of 1.32%.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

Things have also gotten better, depending on which aspects of social growth you what to cite. You clearly do not understand the meaning of my post, or the meaning of the word "perspective". You simply go into auto pilot, turn off all critical thinking, and begin blindly regurgitating your rote-learned religious dogma, especially whenever you feel threatened. When has less than 5% of the population had their day? This is just more silliness and nonsense. Claiming that Atheism and Communism are somehow linked, is disturbing and desperate. The difference between you and atheist, is that atheists require at least one piece of objective independent evidence(scientific) to validate any supernatural claim. You only require faith, and some kind of self-self-serving creative logic to validate your claims.

Are you saying on open forum, that everything out of your mouth is simply belief claims? If so, why are you on a debate thread? If you are not going to support any of your belief claims with evidence, then you are just proselytizing, preaching, and sermonizing. There are other more suitable threads for preaching this kind of religious rhetoric. Maybe you are just hoping to find more susceptible minds to join yours.

I do not EXPECT anyone to accept that what I say is true and I have said that repeatedly on this forum.

This seems to be your fallback position whenever you are challenged. If you don't expect anyone to accept what you say is true, then why say anything at all? What is your purpose here? Are you a prophet, a foreseer, a prognosticator, an oracle, or an augur? Or, are you just another human trapped in their own self-imposed theocratic prison? We are all accountable in court because of our ACTIONS, not because of our FREE-WILL. Please learn the difference.

God is omnipotent so God has no limitations. It is not a matter of what God is capable of doing, it is a matter of what God CHOOSES to do and not do. God is omnipotent so God could speak to us so the FACT that He doesn’t means that He has chosen not to. God doeth whatsoever He willeth.

In other words like the rest of us, you don't have a clue why a supernatural fictional character with human assigned attributes, would need a proxy to speak in His behalf. Maybe by creating a Messenger, you simply maintain the religious formula of a man-like representative of a Deity, that is in keeping with most other religious dogma?

 

[Trailblazer]

Things have also gotten better, depending on which aspects of social growth you what to cite.

I never said that things have not gotten better. In fact I said that the new world order is in the “process” of being built, which means that things are getting better.

You clearly do not understand the meaning of my post, or the meaning of the word "perspective". You simply go into auto pilot, turn off all critical thinking, and begin blindly regurgitating your rote-learned religious dogma, especially whenever you feel threatened.

I am on auto pilot just because I have certain religious beliefs. Moreover my critical thinking is just fine. Some atheists think they so superior but they are not.

I do not feel threatened in any manner shape or form. What would I feel threatened by?

When has less than 5% of the population had their day? This is just more silliness and nonsense. Claiming that Atheism and Communism are somehow linked, is disturbing and desperate.

Clearly, claiming that Atheism and Communism are linked is just Reality because communists do not believe in God, so when communism declined atheism declined.

The RISE in atheism was linked to communism, so as soon as communism declined, atheism started to decline.

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!

16 March 2016, 07:56

Atheism is not growing despite what atheists may say. Real surveys and statistics say atheism is on the decline worldwide. Sorry atheists but atheism is not on the rise nor is it winning. It's still the minority and a declining one at that.

The Pew Research Center's statistics show that atheism is expected to continue to decline all the way into 2050 with a continued growth of religion. Other research also shows a huge surge in growth for Christianity in China which is currently the world's most "atheist" nation because of the atheist communist government suppressing religion, the research suggests that China will soon become the world's most Christian nation within 15 years.

This is simply history repeating itself: Christianity prospered in Rome back in the ancient era when it was suppressed and it still grew in the militant atheist soviet Russia when it was suppressed there only a century ago with the majority of Russians today now also identifying as Christian. Just goes to show that atheist suppression of religion still doesn't stop religion.

Sources:

The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050 | Pew Research Center
Religiously Unaffiliated | Pew Research Center
China on course to become 'world's most Christian nation' within 15 years
http://masterrussian.com/russia/facts.htm

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!

Christianity Is Flourishing in Eastern Europe Decades After Fall of Atheistic Communism

Roughly a quarter century after the collapse of the Soviet Union, religion has reasserted itself as an important part of individual and national identity in many places where communist regimes once repressed religious worship and promoted atheism, according to a major new Pew Research Center survey of 18 countries in Central and Eastern Europe. In addition to religious identity, beliefs and practices, and national identity, the survey explores respondents’ views on social issues, democracy, the economy, religious and ethnic pluralism, and more.

9 key findings about religion and politics in Central and Eastern Europe

Need any more evidence? It is all on the internet.

The difference between you and atheist, is that atheists require at least one piece of objective independent evidence (scientific) to validate any supernatural claim. You only require faith, and some kind of self-self-serving creative logic to validate your claims.

The difference between me and any atheist is that I am rational and they are not, because any rational person knows there can be no objective evidence of any supernatural claim. Baha’is require evidence and we have plenty of evidence, but it is not objective since there is no objective evidence for the supernatural, only for the natural.

There is nothing self-serving about religious people. We serve God, not self.

Are you saying on open forum, that everything out of your mouth is simply belief claims? If so, why are you on a debate thread? If you are not going to support any of your belief claims with evidence, then you are just proselytizing, preaching, and sermonizing. There are other more suitable threads for preaching this kind of religious rhetoric. Maybe you are just hoping to find more susceptible minds to join yours.

I have plenty of evidence to support my beliefs. I do not know how many times I have said this and presented the evidence, but I does not make any difference because there is no objective evidence for an immaterial God.

I am not preaching anything, I am just responding to posts posted to me. I am not looking for anyone to join me.

This seems to be your fallback position whenever you are challenged. If you don't expect anyone to accept what you say is true, then why say anything at all? What is your purpose here? Are you a prophet, a foreseer, a prognosticator, an oracle, or an augur? Or, are you just another human trapped in their own self-imposed theocratic prison? We are all accountable in court because of our ACTIONS, not because of our FREE-WILL. Please learn the difference.

I have no “position” because I am not in an argument to try to prove anything.

I do not care if anything accepts what I say. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Everyone has free will so they need to make their own decisions. I am just here reading and answering posts like everyone else.

We are all accountable in court because of our ACTIONS, because we have FREE-WILL to choose between right and wrong. If we had no free will to CHOOSE between right and wrong we would not be accountable for our actions. Everyone knows that.

In other words like the rest of us, you don't have a clue why a supernatural fictional character with human assigned attributes, would need a proxy to speak in His behalf. Maybe by creating a Messenger, you simply maintain the religious formula of a man-like representative of a Deity, that is in keeping with most other religious dogma?

God needs a Messenger because God is not a man who can come to earth and speak on His behalf. It is as simple as that.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I never said that things have not gotten better. In fact I said that the new world order is in the “process” of being built, which means that things are getting better.

I am on auto pilot just because I have certain religious beliefs. Moreover my critical thinking is just fine. Some atheists think they so superior but they are not.

I do not feel threatened in any manner shape or form. What would I feel threatened by?

Clearly, claiming that Atheism and Communism are linked is just Reality because communists do not believe in God, so when communism declined atheism declined.

The RISE in atheism was linked to communism, so as soon as communism declined, atheism started to decline.

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!

16 March 2016, 07:56

Atheism is not growing despite what atheists may say. Real surveys and statistics say atheism is on the decline worldwide. Sorry atheists but atheism is not on the rise nor is it winning. It's still the minority and a declining one at that.

The Pew Research Center's statistics show that atheism is expected to continue to decline all the way into 2050 with a continued growth of religion. Other research also shows a huge surge in growth for Christianity in China which is currently the world's most "atheist" nation because of the atheist communist government suppressing religion, the research suggests that China will soon become the world's most Christian nation within 15 years.

This is simply history repeating itself: Christianity prospered in Rome back in the ancient era when it was suppressed and it still grew in the militant atheist soviet Russia when it was suppressed there only a century ago with the majority of Russians today now also identifying as Christian. Just goes to show that atheist suppression of religion still doesn't stop religion.

Sources:

The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050 | Pew Research Center
Religiously Unaffiliated | Pew Research Center
China on course to become 'world's most Christian nation' within 15 years
http://masterrussian.com/russia/facts.htm

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!

Christianity Is Flourishing in Eastern Europe Decades After Fall of Atheistic Communism

Roughly a quarter century after the collapse of the Soviet Union, religion has reasserted itself as an important part of individual and national identity in many places where communist regimes once repressed religious worship and promoted atheism, according to a major new Pew Research Center survey of 18 countries in Central and Eastern Europe. In addition to religious identity, beliefs and practices, and national identity, the survey explores respondents’ views on social issues, democracy, the economy, religious and ethnic pluralism, and more.

9 key findings about religion and politics in Central and Eastern Europe

Need any more evidence? It is all on the internet.

The difference between me and any atheist is that I am rational and they are not, because any rational person knows there can be no objective evidence of any supernatural claim. Baha’is require evidence and we have plenty of evidence, but it is not objective since there is no objective evidence for the supernatural, only for the natural.

There is nothing self-serving about religious people. We serve God, not self.

I have plenty of evidence to support my beliefs. I do not know how many times I have said this and presented the evidence, but I does not make any difference because there is no objective evidence for an immaterial God.

I am not preaching anything, I am just responding to posts posted to me. I am not looking for anyone to join me.

I have no “position” because I am not in an argument to try to prove anything.

I do not care if anything accepts what I say. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Everyone has free will so they need to make their own decisions. I am just here reading and answering posts like everyone else.

We are all accountable in court because of our ACTIONS, because we have FREE-WILL to choose between right and wrong. If we had no free will to CHOOSE between right and wrong we would not be accountable for our actions. Everyone knows that.

God needs a Messenger because God is not a man who can come to earth and speak on His behalf. It is as simple as that.

When I respond to what you have stated, why do you always respond with what you haven't stated. Claiming that the rise or fall of atheism is directly related to the rise and fall of communism, is truly self-serving and uninformed. There is only one aspect of Communism(a non-belief in a God), that is related to Atheism. Is this the only criteria that you are using to justify your claim? Do Atheists seize religious properties, ban religious practices, harass religious believers, suspend religious rights, or question religious nationalism? No, of course not. Atheism is a position, not a political ideology, or a religious belief. There are many reasons why people are atheists, that have nothing to do with communism. Atheism may be tied to financial security, or one's level of education, their general IQ, social stigma and nonconformity, and many other non-communist-related factors. I don't expect you to consider anything, I expect you to keep parroting. What is the connection between the rise in atheism in non-religious countries, and the decline in world-wide communism? You also clearly imply that Atheist are communists. Of course you will again claim that you did not say this, even though it is clearly implied. This is all that you do, imply and deny.

Do you really think that any rational thinking person, will just abandon logic, and accept that if they jump off the top of a 4 story building, that they will be held up by the hand of God or His Messenger? Do you really think that any rational thinkers, or science itself, cares about any consensus of hive/herd mentality? Atheistic views are subjective, and NOT dependent on any political ideology. It only refers to a belief in God. What is the mechanism in one country, that can cause the decline in Atheism in another country? This just gets sillier. Do you also think because Atheist know WHY there is no falsifiable evidence for the existence of God, that this in some way makes you more rational than they are? More deception using clever semantics.

You have no evidence at all to support your belief. The best you can do is claim that the lack of evidence as your evidence. That is insane. Religious people can serve whomever they want, but at some point they must serve themselves, or they will die. Your response to my post, by not answering my questions, is to simply EDITORIALIZE AND PREACH PERIOD. You add no new information, simply make new proclamations. Stop rephrasing my questions to suit yourself. Again you are accountable in court FOR YOUR ACTIONS, not because of your FREE WILL TO CHOOSE YOUR ACTIONS. So stop rephrasing whatever I say to force it to fit. You seem to possess very little intellectual honesty.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I respond to what you have stated, why do you always respond with what you haven't stated. Claiming that the rise or fall of atheism is directly related to the rise and fall of communism, is truly self-serving and uninformed. There is only one aspect of Communism (a non-belief in a God), that is related to Atheism. Is this the only criteria that you are using to justify your claim? Do Atheists seize religious properties, ban religious practices, harass religious believers, suspend religious rights, or question religious nationalism? No, of course not. Atheism is a position, not a political ideology, or a religious belief. There are many reasons why people are atheists, that have nothing to do with communism. Atheism may be tied to financial security, or one's level of education, their general IQ, social stigma and nonconformity, and many other non-communist-related factors. I don't expect you to consider anything, I expect you to keep parroting. What is the connection between the rise in atheism in non-religious countries, and the decline in world-wide communism? You also clearly imply that Atheist are communists. Of course you will again claim that you did not say this, even though it is clearly implied. This is all that you do, imply and deny.

That is a straw man. I never said that the rise or fall of atheism is directly related to the rise and fall of communism. I said that Atheism and Communism are linked because communists do not believe in God; so when communism declined worldwide, atheism also declined worldwide.

Communist Countries, Past and Present

I never said all Atheists are Communists, I only said that Communists are Atheists, by virtue of their ideology that God is not a part of. Atheism is a necessary element of Communism and that is why most of history’s Communist regimes have outlawed religion or at least they tried to.

That is a straw man. I never said that Atheists are Communists. I said that Communists are Atheists. Not all Atheists are Communists but all Communists are Atheists by virtue of their ideology. That does not mean that there are no religious people living in communist countries, but they are oppressed or at the very least controlled.

What religion are communists?
Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Communist Party.
Religion in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

Do you really think that any rational thinking person, will just abandon logic, and accept that if they jump off the top of a 4 story building, that they will be held up by the hand of God or His Messenger? Do you really think that any rational thinkers, or science itself, cares about any consensus of hive/herd mentality? Atheistic views are subjective, and NOT dependent on any political ideology. It only refers to a belief in God. What is the mechanism in one country, that can cause the decline in Atheism in another country? This just gets sillier. Do you also think because Atheist know WHY there is no falsifiable evidence for the existence of God, that this in some way makes you more rational than they are? More deception using clever semantics.

I do not think any of those things. You keep telling me what I think, when you have no idea what I think. I never said or implied that Atheists do not think rationally, I only ever said that it is irrational to expect to get objective evidence of an immaterial God. Do you think that only Atheists can think rationally? Do you think that all scientists are Atheists?

“A survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. Specifically, more than eight-in-ten Americans (83%) say they believe in God and 12% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power, while the poll of the public finds that only 4% of Americans share this view.”
Scientists and Belief | Pew Research Center

“The study’s results challenge longstanding assumptions about the science-faith interface. While it is commonly assumed that most scientists are atheists, the global perspective resulting from the study shows that this is simply not the case.

“More than half of scientists in India, Italy, Taiwan and Turkey self-identify as religious,” Ecklund said. “And it’s striking that approximately twice as many ‘convinced atheists’ exist in the general population of Hong Kong, for example, (55 percent) compared with the scientific community in this region (26 percent).”

The researchers did find that scientists are generally less religious than a given general population. However, there were exceptions to this: 39 percent of scientists in Hong Kong identify as religious compared with 20 percent of the general population of Hong Kong, and 54 percent of scientists in Taiwan identify as religious compared with 44 percent of the general population of Taiwan. Ecklund noted that such patterns challenge longstanding assumptions about the irreligious character of scientists around the world.

When asked about terms of conflict between religion and science, Ecklund noted that only a minority of scientists in each regional context believe that science and religion are in conflict. In the U.K. – one of the most secular countries studied – only 32 percent of scientists characterized the science-faith interface as one of conflict. In the U.S., this number was only 29 percent. And 25 percent of Hong Kong scientists, 27 percent of Indian scientists and 23 percent of Taiwanese scientists believed science and religion can coexist and be used to help each other.”
First worldwide survey of religion and science: No, not all scientists are atheists

You have no evidence at all to support your belief. The best you can do is claim that the lack of evidence as your evidence. That is insane.

You are wrong, and you are not going to get me to agree with you. Believers have evidence to support their beliefs. We have the Messengers of God and the history of their missions and their scriptures. The Bible alone is EVIDENCE that God exists. The fact that you do not “like the evidence” does not nullify it as evidence. The other religious scriptures such as the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence that God exists. God is not going to come barreling down from wherever He dwells and make a personal appearance. God is not going to whisper in everyone’s ear “I exist.” People can choose to accept the evidence God provides – Messengers – or they can choose to be Atheists. It is really that simple.

Stop rephrasing my questions to suit yourself. Again you are accountable in court FOR YOUR ACTIONS, not because of your FREE WILL TO CHOOSE YOUR ACTIONS. So stop rephrasing whatever I say to force it to fit. You seem to possess very little intellectual honesty.

I did not rephrase anything you said. I just disagreed with what you said so I said what I think. There is NOTHING dishonest about that. It is honest to state what I honestly think. It is dishonest to agree with you when I do not agree with you.

Again, I think that the REASON people are accountable in court is because of their ACTIONS. If they had no free will to CHOOSE between right and wrong, then they would not be accountable for their actions. People who are mentally impaired, mentally challenged, or mentally ill are not held accountable for their actions because their free will is compromised since they cannot think clearly like normal people.

EVERYTHING humans do is based upon free will decisions they make. All adult humans are responsible thus accountable for their actions unless they are mentally impaired, mentally challenged, or mentally ill.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

That is a straw man. I never said that the rise or fall of atheism is directly related to the rise and fall of communism. I said that Atheism and Communism are linked because communists do not believe in God; so when communism declined worldwide, atheism also declined worldwide.

Communist Countries, Past and Present

I never said all Atheists are Communists, I only said that Communists are Atheists, by virtue of their ideology that God is not a part of. Atheism is a necessary element of Communism and that is why most of history’s Communist regimes have outlawed religion or at least they tried to.

That is a straw man. I never said that Atheists are Communists. I said that Communists are Atheists. Not all Atheists are Communists but all Communists are Atheists by virtue of their ideology. That does not mean that there are no religious people living in communist countries, but they are oppressed or at the very least controlled.

What religion are communists?
Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Communist Party.
Religion in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

I do not think any of those things. You keep telling me what I think, when you have no idea what I think. I never said or implied that Atheists do not think rationally, I only ever said that it is irrational to expect to get objective evidence of an immaterial God. Do you think that only Atheists can think rationally? Do you think that all scientists are Atheists?

“A survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. Specifically, more than eight-in-ten Americans (83%) say they believe in God and 12% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power, while the poll of the public finds that only 4% of Americans share this view.”
Scientists and Belief | Pew Research Center

“The study’s results challenge longstanding assumptions about the science-faith interface. While it is commonly assumed that most scientists are atheists, the global perspective resulting from the study shows that this is simply not the case.

“More than half of scientists in India, Italy, Taiwan and Turkey self-identify as religious,” Ecklund said. “And it’s striking that approximately twice as many ‘convinced atheists’ exist in the general population of Hong Kong, for example, (55 percent) compared with the scientific community in this region (26 percent).”

The researchers did find that scientists are generally less religious than a given general population. However, there were exceptions to this: 39 percent of scientists in Hong Kong identify as religious compared with 20 percent of the general population of Hong Kong, and 54 percent of scientists in Taiwan identify as religious compared with 44 percent of the general population of Taiwan. Ecklund noted that such patterns challenge longstanding assumptions about the irreligious character of scientists around the world.

When asked about terms of conflict between religion and science, Ecklund noted that only a minority of scientists in each regional context believe that science and religion are in conflict. In the U.K. – one of the most secular countries studied – only 32 percent of scientists characterized the science-faith interface as one of conflict. In the U.S., this number was only 29 percent. And 25 percent of Hong Kong scientists, 27 percent of Indian scientists and 23 percent of Taiwanese scientists believed science and religion can coexist and be used to help each other.”
First worldwide survey of religion and science: No, not all scientists are atheists

You are wrong, and you are not going to get me to agree with you. Believers have evidence to support their beliefs. We have the Messengers of God and the history of their missions and their scriptures. The Bible alone is EVIDENCE that God exists. The fact that you do not “like the evidence” does not nullify it as evidence. The other religious scriptures such as the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence that God exists. God is not going to come barreling down from wherever He dwells and make a personal appearance. God is not going to whisper in everyone’s ear “I exist.” People can choose to accept the evidence God provides – Messengers – or they can choose to be Atheists. It is really that simple.

I did not rephrase anything you said. I just disagreed with what you said so I said what I think. There is NOTHING dishonest about that. It is honest to state what I honestly think. It is dishonest to agree with you when I do not agree with you.

Again, I think that the REASON people are accountable in court is because of their ACTIONS. If they had no free will to CHOOSE between right and wrong, then they would not be accountable for their actions. People who are mentally impaired, mentally challenged, or mentally ill are not held accountable for their actions because their free will is compromised since they cannot think clearly like normal people.

EVERYTHING humans do is based upon free will decisions they make. All adult humans are responsible thus accountable for their actions unless they are mentally impaired, mentally challenged, or mentally ill.

Since you will always deny anything that you say, once you realize just how silly it sounds, let's just talk about what you mean. Even quoting your exact words have little effect on your parroted programmed responses. Let me clearly restate some points which you will undoubtedly restate to fit your blind faith. One aspect of the philosophy of COMMUNISM(NOT CommunISTS), is to address the irrational belief in a God. Many members of the Russian Orthodox maintained their beliefs throughout the war, and survived through the government's purge on religions. The rationale behind actively discouraging religions, was for political and ideological reasons. Atheist simply maintain the position that "if you can't show it, then you don't know it". In other words, no evidence, no certainty. Atheists are the rationalist that can see that "the King is not wearing any clothes", when people like you are saying that the King is.

I never said that the rise or fall of atheism is directly related to the rise and fall of communism. I said that Atheism and Communism are linked because communists do not believe in God; so when communism declined worldwide, atheism also declined worldwide.

I never said all Atheists are Communists, I only said that Communists are Atheists, by virtue of their ideology that God is not a part of.

Gee, how could I have gotten the wrong idea? Of course all Atheist are not Communists, and all Communists are not Atheists. Anymore, then those who drink vodka or eats caviar, are Communists. Just because you agree with one aspect of a political ideology, doesn't mean that you must embrace the entire ideology. Did President Obama embrace Socialism, in his Obama Care? Why is your mind so closed? How many more common sense examples is needed to open your mind?

You said that you COULDN'T be held accountable for your actions by the court if you didn't have free will. I stated that you are only accountable for your actions by the court, NOT your free will(I expect you to deny this as well). Rather than accept that you were wrong, you simply rephrase my statement to hide your clear meaning. I might also note, that since almost 90% of all your actions takes place without free-will, essentially you don't have free-will. Unless you are controlling every muscle in your shoulder, arms, wrist, and fingers to type in your response. Do you have the free-will to NOT perceive anything through your senses? What about involuntary, and neural reflex arcs? We are not talking about any physical or mental dysfunctions that can prevents the formation of rational judgement/decisions. This also has nothing to do with free will. This has to do with responsibility, not culpability in the courts.

It is clear that when you are faced with just how silly your beliefs and logic sound to rational people, you quickly redress your comments to make them appear more rational. Your ability to cut, copy, and paste is just more unnecessary verbiage, and is also irrelevant. Especially since you are still wrong. There IS no direct link between Atheism and Communism, because their disbelieve in God are for different reasons. Even if there were some obscure connection, it would only be coincidental.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

That is a straw man. I never said that the rise or fall of atheism is directly related to the rise and fall of communism. I said that Atheism and Communism are linked because communists do not believe in God; so when communism declined worldwide, atheism also declined worldwide.

Communist Countries, Past and Present

I never said all Atheists are Communists, I only said that Communists are Atheists, by virtue of their ideology that God is not a part of. Atheism is a necessary element of Communism and that is why most of history’s Communist regimes have outlawed religion or at least they tried to.

That is a straw man. I never said that Atheists are Communists. I said that Communists are Atheists. Not all Atheists are Communists but all Communists are Atheists by virtue of their ideology. That does not mean that there are no religious people living in communist countries, but they are oppressed or at the very least controlled.

What religion are communists?
Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Communist Party.
Religion in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

I do not think any of those things. You keep telling me what I think, when you have no idea what I think. I never said or implied that Atheists do not think rationally, I only ever said that it is irrational to expect to get objective evidence of an immaterial God. Do you think that only Atheists can think rationally? Do you think that all scientists are Atheists?

“A survey of scientists who are members of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press in May and June 2009, finds that members of this group are, on the whole, much less religious than the general public.1 Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. Specifically, more than eight-in-ten Americans (83%) say they believe in God and 12% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power, while the poll of the public finds that only 4% of Americans share this view.”
Scientists and Belief | Pew Research Center

“The study’s results challenge longstanding assumptions about the science-faith interface. While it is commonly assumed that most scientists are atheists, the global perspective resulting from the study shows that this is simply not the case.

“More than half of scientists in India, Italy, Taiwan and Turkey self-identify as religious,” Ecklund said. “And it’s striking that approximately twice as many ‘convinced atheists’ exist in the general population of Hong Kong, for example, (55 percent) compared with the scientific community in this region (26 percent).”

The researchers did find that scientists are generally less religious than a given general population. However, there were exceptions to this: 39 percent of scientists in Hong Kong identify as religious compared with 20 percent of the general population of Hong Kong, and 54 percent of scientists in Taiwan identify as religious compared with 44 percent of the general population of Taiwan. Ecklund noted that such patterns challenge longstanding assumptions about the irreligious character of scientists around the world.

When asked about terms of conflict between religion and science, Ecklund noted that only a minority of scientists in each regional context believe that science and religion are in conflict. In the U.K. – one of the most secular countries studied – only 32 percent of scientists characterized the science-faith interface as one of conflict. In the U.S., this number was only 29 percent. And 25 percent of Hong Kong scientists, 27 percent of Indian scientists and 23 percent of Taiwanese scientists believed science and religion can coexist and be used to help each other.”
First worldwide survey of religion and science: No, not all scientists are atheists

You are wrong, and you are not going to get me to agree with you. Believers have evidence to support their beliefs. We have the Messengers of God and the history of their missions and their scriptures. The Bible alone is EVIDENCE that God exists. The fact that you do not “like the evidence” does not nullify it as evidence. The other religious scriptures such as the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence that God exists. God is not going to come barreling down from wherever He dwells and make a personal appearance. God is not going to whisper in everyone’s ear “I exist.” People can choose to accept the evidence God provides – Messengers – or they can choose to be Atheists. It is really that simple.

I did not rephrase anything you said. I just disagreed with what you said so I said what I think. There is NOTHING dishonest about that. It is honest to state what I honestly think. It is dishonest to agree with you when I do not agree with you.

Again, I think that the REASON people are accountable in court is because of their ACTIONS. If they had no free will to CHOOSE between right and wrong, then they would not be accountable for their actions. People who are mentally impaired, mentally challenged, or mentally ill are not held accountable for their actions because their free will is compromised since they cannot think clearly like normal people.

EVERYTHING humans do is based upon free will decisions they make. All adult humans are responsible thus accountable for their actions unless they are mentally impaired, mentally challenged, or mentally ill.

You are wrong, and you are not going to get me to agree with you. Believers have evidence to support their beliefs. We have the Messengers of God and the history of their missions and their scriptures. The Bible alone is EVIDENCE that God exists. The fact that you do not “like the evidence” does not nullify it as evidence. The other religious scriptures such as the Qur’an and the Writings of Baha’u’llah are evidence that God exists. God is not going to come barreling down from wherever He dwells and make a personal appearance. God is not going to whisper in everyone’s ear “I exist.” People can choose to accept the evidence God provides – Messengers – or they can choose to be Atheists. It is really that simple.

I may be wrong, but not because you simply say that I am wrong. Prove it with this so-called evidence. Please understand that I don't expect anyone this far down the rabbit hole, to agree with me. Even if they were buried in facts, logic, common sense, reason, truth, and given a last breath, their minds will stay closed. Cognitive Dissonance and Social/Mental Conformity are powerful negative reinforcement tools. So, I am definitely not expecting you to understand, let alone agree with anything I say.

No 2700 yo book written, edited, compiled, composed, contracted, and vetted by real human beings, can be proof of the existence of anything supernatural. Add to this the different types of Bibles, the different number of Books, the Bible's errant and fallible nature, the different Biblical interpretations, and the different types of religions, makes the "bible" an inconsistent source of verifying the existence of God. Simply creating a new book(s), does not prove that a Messenger of a God exists either. No matter how much your belief piggy-backs off the Christian belief in the existence of a God, it will still not make it any more credible.

Evidence speaks for itself. you don't need to make excuses for it, just present it. Why do you keep making excuses, "you do not like the evidence”, "there is no scientific evidence", "it is irrational to expect rational evidence", and "Believers have evidence to support their beliefs". Also, how do you know(not believe) what a God will do or how a God thinks? You know nothing, but believe everything. Your belief is just another Persian cult, passing itself off as a composite of all beliefs. It is no more credible than the belief in Santa Clause.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That is a straw man. I never said that the rise or fall of atheism is directly related to the rise and fall of communism. I said that Atheism and Communism are linked because communists do not believe in God; so when communism declined worldwide, atheism also declined worldwide.

Many communist communities are religiously-based. Try googling the Shakers and the Hutterites for examples.

Edit:

I never said all Atheists are Communists, I only said that Communists are Atheists, by virtue of their ideology that God is not a part of. Atheism is a necessary element of Communism and that is why most of history’s Communist regimes have outlawed religion or at least they tried to.

Atheism isn't a necessary element of communism. Communism is about how property is owned and who controls the means of production.

 

[Trailblazer]

Gee, how could I have gotten the wrong idea? Of course all Atheist are not Communists, and all Communists are not Atheists. Anymore, then those who drink vodka or eats caviar, are Communists. Just because you agree with one aspect of a political ideology, doesn't mean that you must embrace the entire ideology. Did President Obama embrace Socialism, in his Obama Care? Why is your mind so closed? How many more common sense examples is needed to open your mind?

I never pretended to be an expert on Communism. All I ever said was that given the precipitous drop in atheism during the 20th century and the precipitous drop in communism during the 20th century, it seems to me that those two are linked.

My mind is not closed because as soon as I get new information I take in that information. Of course everyone in a communist country is not an Atheist, but no doubt there are more Atheists in communist countries than there are in a democratic country like the United States, because most people are influenced by the ideology in the country they live in.

You said that you COULDN'T be held accountable for your actions by the court if you didn't have free will. I stated that you are only accountable for your actions by the court, NOT your free will (I expect you to deny this as well). Rather than accept that you were wrong, you simply rephrase my statement to hide your clear meaning.

I am not going to accept that I am wrong. You can have your own ideas and I can have mine. I am not going to change my position. The mature thing to do is agree to disagree and move on.

One is accountable in court because the court holds people responsible for their actions. If people did not have free will to choose between right and wrong, they could not be responsible and they would not be held accountable because it would be unjust to blame someone for something that was not under their control. That is why those who are considered mentally ill or mentally impaired (not in their right mind) are not held accountable in a court of law. Anyone else is accountable because the assumption is that they are responsible for the crime. They are responsible because they have free will to choose between right and wrong. If they had no free will to choose between right and wrong then they would not be responsible and they could not be held accountable.

I might also note, that since almost 90% of all your actions takes place without free-will, essentially you don't have free-will. Unless you are controlling every muscle in your shoulder, arms, wrist, and fingers to type in your response. Do you have the free-will to NOT perceive anything through your senses? What about involuntary, and neural reflex arcs? We are not talking about any physical or mental dysfunctions that can prevents the formation of rational judgement/decisions. This also has nothing to do with free will. This has to do with responsibility, not culpability in the courts.

Not everything we do is subject to our free will, only our moral choices and other day to day choices we make. I can choose to murder my husband for insurance money or not so I am responsible for murdering him if I do. I can choose to post on this forum or do something else with my time. At this point, it is just easier to post what I believe about free will, instead of trying to paraphrase it.

Question.—Is man a free agent in all his actions, or is he compelled and constrained?
Answer.—This question is one of the most important and abstruse of divine problems. If God wills, another day, at the beginning of dinner, we will undertake the explanation of this subject in detail; now we will explain it briefly, in a few words, as follows. Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.

For example, if he wishes, he can pass his time in praising God, or he can be occupied with other thoughts. He can be an enkindled light through the fire of the love of God, and a philanthropist loving the world, or he can be a hater of mankind, and engrossed with material things. He can be just or cruel. These actions and these deeds are subject to the control of the will of man himself; consequently, he is responsible for them. Some Answered Questions, p. 248

 

[Trailblazer]

I may be wrong, but not because you simply say that I am wrong. Prove it with this so-called evidence. Please understand that I don't expect anyone this far down the rabbit hole, to agree with me. Even if they were buried in facts, logic, common sense, reason, truth, and given a last breath, their minds will stay closed. Cognitive Dissonance and Social/Mental Conformity are powerful negative reinforcement tools. So, I am definitely not expecting you to understand, let alone agree with anything I say.

You are the pot calling the kettle black and you cannot even see that. Your mind is as closed as a steel trap. It does not matter what anyone else says because you have your mind made up.

Far down the rabbit hole? Talk is cheap. What facts, logic, common sense, reason, and truth do you have?

Cognitive Dissonance and Social/Mental Conformity are powerful negative reinforcement tools is totally meaningless without any context. You have no context. Your only intent is to insult. If you do not agree with something you insult the person who believes it instead of explaining why you do not agree. I have been going down this road with Atheists for over five years so I know all the tactics they employ.

All you do is criticize and insult me as if I am intellectually inferior to you just because I believe in God and the Baha’i Faith. People who believe in God and religion are not intellectually inferior to Atheists. Atheists who say that do so because they need to feel superior. This is psych 101 stuff.

No 2700 yo book written, edited, compiled, composed, contracted, and vetted by real human beings, can be proof of the existence of anything supernatural. Add to this the different types of Bibles, the different number of Books, the Bible's errant and fallible nature, the different Biblical interpretations, and the different types of religions, makes the "bible" an inconsistent source of verifying the existence of God. Simply creating a new book(s), does not prove that a Messenger of a God exists either. No matter how much your belief piggy-backs off the Christian belief in the existence of a God, it will still not make it any more credible.

Evidence speaks for itself. you don't need to make excuses for it, just present it. Why do you keep making excuses, "you do not like the evidence”, "there is no scientific evidence", "it is irrational to expect rational evidence", and "Believers have evidence to support their beliefs". Also, how do you know(not believe) what a God will do or how a God thinks? You know nothing, but believe everything. Your belief is just another Persian cult, passing itself off as a composite of all beliefs. It is no more credible than the belief in Santa Clause.

I never said that the Bible was proof that God exists. I said it was evidence.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement

Evidence does not speak for itself. It has to be interpreted by the one looking at it. Everyone looks at the evidence differently since humans are all individuals with different backgrounds and life experiences.

You are free to disbelieve whatever you want to and I am free to believe whatever I want to believe. My belief does not prove anything is true and your disbelief does not prove anything is false.

Whether something is credible to you has NO BEARING on whether it is true or false. It is either true or false. You have a right to your opinions and I have a right tom my beliefs.

Nobody can ever KNOW anything about God except through a Messenger of God. That is how I know what I know.

I do not need to make excuses for not providing evidence that does not exist. Take it up with God if you don’t like it. I am not in charge of the “evidence department.”