Questions for God

[dybmh]

Do you know, that's not quite right. Those of us who can't bring ourselves to believe in the existence of the deities we've been introduced to (by their adherents) don't claim to know everything -

Please re-read what I wrote. I didn't say "claim to know everything" unqualified. I specifiied.

Not everybody. I am perfectly happy to answer questions and present the reasons. What I'm seeing is, the critics don't want to read or try to understand the reasons I've given because they assume they know everything that can be said on the subject.

See the qualification? On the subject ... of how God is described in the bible and the implications of those descriptions.

I did not say "claim to know everything".

I stopped reading the remainder of your reply because of the misquote.

 

[F1fan]

Certainly God knew Adam & Eve would choose to disobey the one command He gave, heed satan’s voice, etc.

Thank you for acknowledging the whole creation of the Garden was a fraud and set up by God. If God really wanted them to be obedient don't you think God would have created them with adequate ability?

I think the important point is that God created A&E with the authentic ability to make a free choice;

But God knew the outcome as he created. A perfect being doesn't create something to fail if they don't want it to fail.

 

[InChrist]

Thank you for acknowledging the whole creation of the Garden was a fraud and set up by God. If God really wanted them to be obedient don't you think God would have created them with adequate ability?

But God knew the outcome as he created. A perfect being doesn't create something to fail if they don't want it to fail.

No, I don’t think God would have created them in a way that they had to be obedient because that would have deprived them of the ability to make a free choice decision obey and to respond to God out of of love. It appears to me that giving humans that freedom is a high priority with God. The scriptures say we are created in God’s image, we were not created to be pre-programming or robotic. I believe they did have the ability to obey, if they would have trusted God’s love for them. But as I said previously, any created being is less that God, meaning that a creature will sin, make mistakes, and fall short of God’s perfection because a created being is not God. No matter how good God creates such beings (and the scriptures say God considered His creation good), a human is not God. So the reality is that a human cannot be perfect like God.

P.S. I think what you’re looking at as failure, God sees as just a step in the process and ultimate plan of perfecting human beings created in His image through Christ.

 

[InChrist]

No, the story itself rules that out, first by God's ban, right at the start, on eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and second by God's later lament that they, A&E, have now gained that knowledge.


The serpent told no lies ─ referring to him as a deceiver is nonsense. They did not "choose to disobey his one instruction" in any negative sense, since as I pointed out they were deliberately denied knowledge of good and evil. All Eve did was listen to the snake and think, "That sounds reasonable."

Indeed, if anyone told a lie in the story, it was God, asserting that if they ate the fruit they'd die the same day. Just as the serpent said, that was not true.


No, disobedience has NOTHING to do with why they were sent from the Garden. If that's wrong, quote me the part of the Garden story where God says "I'm kicking you out because you committed the sin of disobedience."

God says, plain and unadorned, in Genesis 3:22-23 that [he]'s kicking them out TO PREVENT THEM FROM EATING FROM THE TREE OF LIFE AND LIVING FOREVER AND BECOMING LIKE US.

It's my strongly-held view that people should treat ancient documents with respect, including not wishing their own meanings on them when plainly that meaning is not present in the text. Unfortunately Christians wish their own meanings on the Tanakh all the time. (That's not to ignore the evidence that the actual notion of the Fall in the Garden story apparently arose via the midrash tradition among the Jews of Alexandria in the late second century CE.)

When they ate the fruit, they did die spiritually, their relationship with God was broken. And I pointed out that what they were “denied” was the aspect of experiencing evil compared with the good they knew. The serpent enticed them to desire to be like God, the same desire/sin which Lucifer/satan wanted himself… (which is impossible) and for which he was kicked out of heaven.

 

[F1fan]

No, the story itself rules that out, first by God's ban, right at the start, on eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and second by God's later lament that they, A&E, have now gained that knowledge.


The serpent told no lies ─ referring to him as a deceiver is nonsense. They did not "choose to disobey his one instruction" in any negative sense, since as I pointed out they were deliberately denied knowledge of good and evil. All Eve did was listen to the snake and think, "That sounds reasonable."

This is the crucial point, and even @InChrist acknowledges that God knew they would not obey. A&E were not given the cognitive tools to understand what they were supposed to do. I assert it was a set up by God, as God knew exactly what he was doing when he creted these humans fallible and unable to obey.

 

[F1fan]

No, I don’t think God would have created them in a way that they had to be obedient because that would have deprived them of the ability to make a free choice decision obey and to respond to God out of of love.

I hear these appeals, and basically you are saying that to have free will means to make the wrong decision. No. Free will doesn't mean being stupid. Free will means that humans will make the best decisions they are capable of making, and dumb people make bad decisions and wise people make good decisions. The issue is that God did not give them the ability to make the right decision, and then sent the serpent to tempt them knowing they could not obey.

It appears to me that giving humans that freedom is a high priority with God.

Freedom without ability is a trap.

The scriptures say we are created in God’s image, we were not created to be pre-programming or robotic. I believe they did have the ability to obey, if they would have trusted God’s love for them. But as I said previously, any created being is less that God, meaning that a creature will sin, make mistakes, and fall short of God’s perfection because a created being is not God. No matter how good God creates such beings (and the scriptures say God considered His creation good), a human is not God. So the reality is that a human cannot be perfect like God.

P.S. I think what you’re looking at as failure, God sees as just a step in the process and ultimate plan of perfecting human beings created in His image through Christ.

I see the need for Jesus to be created (via celestial rape) is another attempt to fix a flawed creation. And killing Jesus as a sacrifice still fixed nothing.

 

[InChrist]

I hear these appeals, and basically you are saying that to have free will means to make the wrong decision. No. Free will doesn't mean being stupid. Free will means that humans will make the best decisions they are capable of making, and dumb people make bad decisions and wise people make good decisions. The issue is that God did not give them the ability to make the right decision, and then sent the serpent to tempt them knowing they could not obey.

Freedom without ability is a trap.

I see the need for Jesus to be created (via celestial rape) is another attempt to fix a flawed creation. And killing Jesus as a sacrifice still fixed nothing.

I think it’s obvious that God did give them the ability to make the the right decision, they decided not to. They decided to trust and exalt themselves above God. God has given all humans the ability to choose and make the right decision. Just like it says Deuteronomy and Joshua..

This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live. Deut.39:1

But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve… Joshua 24:15

I would say that life without freedom is the trap. Thankfully, because God is Love He values freedom.


You can have your view, but I think the incredible love demonstrated by the sacrifice of Jesus offers the only hope and fixes everything.

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:6-8


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. Romans 5:12-15

 

[F1fan]

I think it’s obvious that God did give them the ability to make the the right decision, they decided not to.

How is it obvious? You even admitted God knew ahead of time they would fail, but carried on.

A car company that wants to build eliable cars does not produce a transmission that is known to fail. So your God made a mistake, or it didn't.

They decided to trust and exalt themselves above God. God has given all humans the ability to choose and make the right decision. Just like it says Deuteronomy and Joshua..

Where is that in the Bible? Or are you making it up?

 

[InChrist]

How is it obvious? You even admitted God knew ahead of time they would fail, but carried on.

A car company that wants to build eliable cars does not produce a transmission that is known to fail. So your God made a mistake, or it didn't.

Where is that in the Bible? Or are you making it up?

A human being cannot be compared to a car. As the scriptures state, humans were made in God’s image. We can think, reason; inanimate objects or machines cannot do so. God would not have given A&E any instructions at all or command about the forbidden tree if they could even think about it or make a decision.

They decided to trust themselves and exalt self above God, right here…

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Genesis 6:4-6

 

[InChrist]

This is the crucial point, and even @InChrist acknowledges that God knew they would not obey. A&E were not given the cognitive tools to understand what they were supposed to do. I assert it was a set up by God, as God knew exactly what he was doing when he creted these humans fallible and unable to obey.

I don’t see it as you do and by no means consider it was a set-up or that God’s creation was anything but good. I definitely agree, though, that God knew exactly what He was doing.

 

[blü 2]

Name one thing about Harry Potter than Joanne Rowling doesn't know. Please bring sources.

There are of course no sources. But there are countless instances to which she never had to heed and it appears no more did so than any other author does. An example might be the names of all of Harry's twelfth-great grandparents, for instance. She can of course provide them if required, but till then she doesn't know.

You seem to have troube distinguishing between a human and God, and also have trouble with the concept of "analogy".

As to the first part, I've never read or heard of a description of God appropriate to a real being such that if we found a suspect, we could determine whether [he] was God or not. Nor a definition of 'godness', the quality a real God would have and a real superscientist who could create universes, raise the dead &c would lack.

So if God in fact looks exactly like an example of H. sapiens sapiens, it's possible the first part of your sentence is correct.

God is the creator of everything.

No, that again is mere assertion. HOW does [he] know that? ─ a subquestion under the canopy, How does God know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know.

For example, could God tell you the names of all of [his] twelfth-great grandparents?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

How is it obvious? You even admitted God knew ahead of time they would fail, but carried on.

According to the Bible, God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6; Isaiah 46:9–10; 1 John 3:20), omnipotent (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and omnipresent (Psalm 139:7–10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17). And also, according to Genesis 6:6-7, God regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. The Bible contains other verses that mention his other regrets in addition to creating humanity, all animals, and birds (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10). Wouldn't an all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present God know better than to repopulate the world with the same flawed humans that he wiped out in a global flood? Well, if we're going by the scriptures I previously cited about him being omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, then the answer is apparently yes; he knew better, but he went forward anyway, knowing the outcome.

There are a plethora of biblical stories of a sadistic, psychopathic, and genocidal God who commanded the Israelites to wipe other nations off the face of the earth. According to the Bible, God commanded the Israelites to wipe the Amalikites off the face of the earth (Exodus 17:8–13; 1 Samuel 15:2–3) and told them, "Now go, attack the Amalekites, and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’" (I Samuel 15:3). I wouldn't call this verse: "Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks" (Psalm 137:9) a shining example of morality from the Bible either. FYI, "Violence in the Bible: Greatest Hits" has more examples of violence in the Bible.

According to the Bible, God is capable of hatred, jealousy, and wrath, and he committed global genocide. To be quite honest, I don't believe that anyone should derive their understanding of morality from the Bible. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see a loving, merciful, and just God. How about you?

Bible verses on God's jealousy.

Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Psalms 78:58 "For they provoked Him with their high places and aroused His jealousy with their graven images."

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me."

Exodus 34:13-14 "Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 6:15 "for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth."

Nahum 1:2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.

Bible verses on God's wrath.

Nahum 1:6 "Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger. His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him."

Ezekiel 25:17 "I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

Romans 12:19 "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Ephesians 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

 

[blü 2]

When they ate the fruit, they did die spiritually,

Nothing ─ repeat, nothing ─ of the kind is mentioned in the story. It's one of those Christian additions I was whinging about.

their relationship with God was broken.

But the story is unambiguous. God was the one who told the lie. And kept them ignorant of knowledge of good and evil. And thus made it impossible for them to sin.

As I mentioned, it was the serpent who told the truth.

The serpent enticed them to desire to be like God, the same desire/sin which Lucifer/satan wanted himself… (which is impossible) and for which he was kicked out of heaven.

You're saying it's a bad bad thing that humans can distinguish good from evil?

You astonish me. I think Eve, though purely legendary, should be hailed as a symbol of what's good in mankind.

 

[blü 2]

This is the crucial point, and even @InChrist acknowledges that God knew they would not obey. A&E were not given the cognitive tools to understand what they were supposed to do. I assert it was a set up by God, as God knew exactly what he was doing when he creted these humans fallible and unable to obey.

Yes. [His] booting them out of Eden and [his] kicking over the Tower of Babel were both done to protect [his] own position, not for any noble reason.

Brings to mind Trump storming the Capitol to prevent the installing of a President who wasn't Trump.

 

[ppp]

There are of course no sources. But there are countless instances to which she never had to heed and it appears no more did so than any other author does. An example might be the names of all of Harry's twelfth-great grandparents, for instance. She can of course provide them if required, but till then she doesn't know.

Rowling knows almost nothing about Harry Potter. Once her work was released she lost all claims to it, save for those she can enforce via legal means - iow, the smallest portion. All of the interpretations of the hundreds of millions of readers generated facts about the character that she will never know or understand. All of the reader interpretations. All of the sneaky Pottermore programmers. All of the fan fiction.

As Roland Barthes wrote in his (in)famous 1967 essay on literary theory, La Mort de l’Auteur:

“a text is not composed of a series of words, giving a single meaning, somehow theological (which would be the message of the Author-God), but a site with multiple dimensions, where various writings interact and contest each other, none of which original: the text is a fabric of quotations, from culture’s thousands of sources.”

There are too many sources to count.

 

[1213]

There's no coherent manner in which God can know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know.
If that's wrong, just explain HOW God knows that.

The problem is, I am not the God, therefore I don't know like God. And I think you also are not the God, therefore, I don't think you can know what He knows.

Well, there's the henotheist God of the Torah, one of many gods but first among them. 'Thou shalt have no other gods before me', not, 'Ain't no other gods'. And very clearly in Judges 11:23-24, and in a number of the Psalms and so on.

Then there's the post-Babylonian captivity God who's the only God.

Then in the NT there's the Christian God who's abandoned [his] covenant with the Jewish people.

The God in the Bible is the same all the way. And by what is said in the Bible, God has not abandoned His covenant, it was people who broke the covenant that was done before Jesus. That is why God send Jesus to declare the new covenant where "the law is written into person's heart".

The bible god is the god the questions in the OP are addressed to. Of course [he him]self never appears, says or does, so it's up to [his] followers to provide the answers, I'd say.

I don't think I would be here answering anything without God, therefore I think God provides the answers.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I don’t see it as you do and by no means consider it was a set-up or that God’s creation was anything but good.

Of course you don't. You've decided a priori that it could not have been and must be interpreted otherwise, and as usual with Christian theology, that done in terms of man's failures and the need to punish him. Nothing could ever look like a set-up to you including a set-up, which that story describes. The kids were set up to fail a test they were unable to pass, a fact known before it happened. The humanist will judge that differently, the way he would a parent who left a toddler with a fork next to an electric socket with his older brother there prodding him to stick the fork in despite mom saying not to. The outcome is a pretty much a forgone conclusion even for mere mortals. Who's to blame there, the mother, the toddler his older brother, or some combination?

I definitely agree, though, that God knew exactly what He was doing.

And the actions attributed to that god are judge accordingly by those free to come to whatever conclusion the evidence suggests. Those forced to see the god as blameless will never blame the god for any act.

I think you also are not the God, therefore, I don't think you can know what He knows.

He didn't claim to know what an omniscient god knows. He asked, "How does God know there's nothing [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know?" Unless your answer is that he can't or doesn't, your answer must be of the form, "The way God knows that there is nothing that he doesn't know is [...]" I would suggest that no mind can know everything, and one that thinks it does can't know whether it is correct. In fact, in mathematics, we have,

"Gödel’s two incompleteness theorems are among the most important results in modern logic, and have deep implications for various issues. They concern the limits of provability in formal axiomatic theories. The first incompleteness theorem states that in any consistent formal system F� within which a certain amount of arithmetic can be carried out, there are statements of the language of F� which can neither be proved nor disproved in F�. According to the second incompleteness theorem, such a formal system cannot prove that the system itself is consistent (assuming it is indeed consistent)."

What this says is that no formal method of generating theorems can generate all true theorems or name the correct ones it has not generated. It's not clear how this applies to mind and computation in general, but the implications are intriguing.

 

[F1fan]

The problem is, I am not the God, therefore I don't know like God. And I think you also are not the God, therefore, I don't think you can know what He knows.

And we humans can't even know there is a God. If a God were to exist, and the Genesis stories are true, then surely God would know the humans it created and allow itself to be known adequately. As we observe, there is much disagreement and confusion.

The God in the Bible is the same all the way.

Really? Old Testament God is the same as New Testament God, in your interpretation?

And by what is said in the Bible, God has not abandoned His covenant, it was people who broke the covenant that was done before Jesus. That is why God send Jesus to declare the new covenant where "the law is written into person's heart".

So Christians don't think Jews are obsolete as God's Chosen, and abandoned?

I don't think I would be here answering anything without God, therefore I think God provides the answers.

So science, and evolution as an answer, comes through God?

Too bad Christians can't agree with each other. Or withy those of other religions.

Do you think Hindu gods offer answers?

 

[F1fan]

I don’t see it as you do and by no means consider it was a set-up or that God’s creation was anything but good. I definitely agree, though, that God knew exactly what He was doing.

Of course you don't. What is your response to post 152? God regreted creating humans. Does that suggest a God that knows what he is doing?

 

[dybmh]

There are of course no sources. But there are countless instances to which she never had to heed and it appears no more did so than any other author does. An example might be the names of all of Harry's twelfth-great grandparents, for instance. She can of course provide them if required, but till then she doesn't know.

Right. Those details aren't in the book. The author knows what they have written. The author knows what they have not written. If they are in constant possession of the book which they are writing, they do not need a 3rd party to confirm whether or not anything was added to the book which is outside their knowledge.

Correct?

God is like an author which is "writing" all of reality. Just as a author knows everything they are writing, God knows all that is being created. God's omniscience is coherent because God is more than omniscient. God is also creator and eternal. This is how God is described in the bible.