Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

[TransmutingSoul]

Who is Subh-i-Azal again, and why was he a bad guy (or good guy, or neutral guy)?

The half brother Subh-i-Aza was the Anti Christ of the Bahai Dispensation, a weak soul trying to take the Message of the Bab and make it his own, for his own benefit.

History has recorded this great struggle between the Power of Gods Word and the forces of darkness. It is an epic tale, the greatest story yet to be heard by the majority of people.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

but a coward is a coward and a lying deceitful coward, is not a Manifestation from God.

Just like oil is not water and black is not white and night is not day.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

That depends upon if you ask the Baha'is or the Azalis: Azali - Wikipedia

Here is a neutral account, perhaps too neutral.

Subh-i-Azal - Wikipedia

One such example from Baha'u'llah of how he himself refers to them is:

Say: O people, if ye judge fairly and equitably, ye will testify to the truth of whatsoever hath streamed forth from the Most Exalted Pen. If ye be of the people of the Bayán, the Persian Bayán will guide you aright and will prove a sufficient testimony unto you; and if ye be of the people of the Qur’án, ponder ye upon the Revelation on Sinai and the Voice from the Bush which came unto the Son of ‘Imrán [Moses].
Gracious God! It was intended that at the time of the manifestation of the One true God the faculty of recognizing Him would have been developed and matured and would have reached its culmination. However, it is now clearly demonstrated that in the disbelievers this faculty hath remained undeveloped and hath, indeed, degenerated.
O ‘Alí! That which they accepted from the Bush they now refuse to accept from Him Who is the Tree of the world of existence. Say, O people of the Bayán, speak not according to the dictates of passion and selfish desire. Most of the peoples of the earth attest the truth of the blessed Word which hath come forth from the Bush.
By the righteousness of God! But for the anthem of praise voiced by Him Who heralded the divine Revelation, this Wronged One would never have breathed a word which might have struck terror into the hearts of the ignorant and caused them to perish. Dwelling on the glorification of Him Whom God shall make manifest—exalted be His Manifestation—the Báb in the beginning of the Bayán saith: ‘He is the One Who shall proclaim under all conditions, “Verily, verily, I am God, no God is there but Me, the Lord of all created things. In truth all others except Me are My creatures. O, My creatures! Me alone do ye worship.”’ Likewise in another instance He, magnifying the Name of Him Who shall be made manifest, saith: ‘I would be the first to adore Him.’ Now it behoveth one to reflect upon the significance of the ‘Adorer’ and the ‘Adored One’, that perchance the people of the earth may partake of a dewdrop from the ocean of divine knowledge and may be enabled to perceive the greatness of this Revelation. Verily, He hath appeared and hath unloosed His tongue to proclaim the Truth. Well is it with him who doth acknowledge and recognize the truth, and woe betide the froward and the wayward.
- from the Tablet named TAJALLÍYÁT


Or another passage:

Beware, beware lest thou behave like unto the people of the Bayán. For indeed they erred grievously, misguided the people, ignored the Covenant of God and His Testament and joined partners with Him, the One, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily they failed to recognize the Point of the Bayán, for had they recognized Him they would not have rejected His manifestation in this luminous and resplendent Being. And since they fixed their eyes on names, therefore when He replaced His Name ‘the Most Exalted’ by ‘the Most Glorious’ their eyes were dimmed. They have failed to recognize Him in these days and are reckoned with those that perish. Indeed, had they known Him through His own Self or by virtue of that which He hath revealed, they would not have repudiated Him when He appeared in this glorious and incomparable Name, which God hath ordained to be the Sword of His Revelation between heaven and earth, and through which truth is separated from error, even from now until the Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the worlds.
- from the Tablet named SÚRIY-I-VAFÁ

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Just like oil is not water and black is not white and night is not day.

Show us a non-Baha'i source that verifies your dogmatic, ideological-based claims about Subh-i-Azal. Something that doesn't rely on biased, unsubstantiated books of vitriol like the Dawnbreakers, etc, and the venomous words of your other founders against Subh-i-Azal (which amount to conjecture).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Azali is a derogatory term created by Baha'i's.

Followers of Subh-i-Azal just call themselves Babis/Bayanis. Even in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he call them "People of the Bayan".

His own actions earned that name. Baha'u'llah protected him for many years. Subh-i-Azal hid for many years, but always had a knife for the back of Baha'u'llah.

Mostly, this is all recorded history. Thus all that needs to be said, has now been offered. i leave it to others if they wish to research this topic.

Regards Tony

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Thus all that needs to be said, has now been offered.

So nothing needs to be said and your biased word should be taken as objective historical fact? when we know you haven't actually done any research on it and merely accept Dawnbreakers etc as objective fact?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Show us a non-Baha'i source that verifies your dogmatic, ideological-based claims about Subh-i-Azal.

Why would history record such deception, it only has significance for a Baha'i and the trouble this person caused to many innocent people.

Even the enemies of Baha'u'llah got tired of His false accusations, which rippled all the way on to Shoghi Effendi and on to the first years of the Universal House of Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Why would history record such deception

You mean why would Baha'i's (not objective history) make such claims?

Easy, same reason why the Umayyads cursed Imam Ali and made it mandatory to do so.

Ideological reasons, Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri was a terrible person and a very vile brother. If Mirza even gave respect to Subh-i-Azal it would demolish the progress of his usurpation of the Babi/Bayani community. Wise followers of The Bab knew what was up and held strong to The Bab, even though you derogatorily call them "Azalis" because they undermine your goals.
So much for "Unity of religion" and "Unity of humanity" when you're so spiteful towards real Babis/Bayanis and so willing to lie about them.

 

[Ancient Soul]

You could make a thread about it, and discuss it in bits over time there, I'd definitely visit and be interested in finding out more about your thoughts and experiences.

Funny you should mention that. I am planning on opening a forum thread if RF will allow me, I'm not sure if non-paying "members" can start a thread. I'll be checking into that.

You can also just read my posts if you happen to come across any, I do let out bits and pieces of my spiritual life and understands from time to time. Although in most of them I just get bogged down replying to atheists and/or religious folks making spiritually false claims.

 

[Ancient Soul]

No, I say that Baha'u'llah is correct as I have accepted Baha'u'llah is the one the Bab promised, He who God made Manifest.

I see you can offer no proof against Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

And I have yet to see any conclusive proof of this Baha'u'llah's bombastic claim.

Besides that, you and TB need to get this myth straight. As TB switches back and forth between Baha'u'llah being a "messenger" of "god" to his being "god", and you now claim that your "god" only made him, whatever that is suppose to prove.

 

[Trailblazer]

For the most part practicing Taqiyah because they can't practice their religion in Iran openly and don't have the kind of networking and institutions as Baha'i's later developed.
They are, as I've said, there in the background, watching as the world happens until their time of growth happens. Seeing that they're like 2% into their dispensation, they are doing fine at the moment - with due consideration to the situation.

It does not sound like thy are doing fine to me:

"MacEoin notes that, in any event, neither he (Yahya Dawlatábádí) nor anyone else arose to organize the affairs of the community, or produce significant writing to develop the religion. He goes on to say (writing in 1999):

With the deaths of those Azalis who were active in the Constitutional period, Azali Babism entered a phase of stagnation from which it has never recovered. There is now no acknowledged leader nor, to the knowledge of the present writer, any central organization. Members tend to be secretive about their affiliation, converts are rare, and association appears to run along family lines. It is difficult to estimate current numbers, but these are unlikely to exceed one or two thousand, almost all of whom reside in Iran.

Azali - Wikipedia

Yeah, according to Baha'i sources Dawnbreakers? lol give me a break You don't even have an original of that text, and Babi/Bayani and general Persian sources from around that period thourghrally refute such Baha'i claims - which are, when boiled down, of a dogmatic, doctrinal and ideological nature, not a historical.

Such Baha'i texts are more like the four gospels, where it is an appeal to faith for their historicity. (though such a comparison is still too generous).

Talk is cheap, and so are accusations. I am still waiting for what you consider a historical account.
Please present proof of its historicity.

 

[Trailblazer]

Such a person is incontestably Subh-i-Azal, according to The Will And Testament Of The Bab, as well as several other texts of The Bab which mention Azal's importance and Station.

Too bad that the Bab did not know all the dirty deeds that Azal would do after the Bab died. Only God can see into the future.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Qur'an doesn't exist within the limits of The Bible, nor does it make appeal to it.

The Baha'i Faith does not exist within the limits of The Bible, nor does it make appeal to it.

This is something many critics of the Baha'i Faith can't seem to get through their heads.

 

[Trailblazer]

Azali is a derogatory term created by Baha'i's.

Followers of Subh-i-Azal just call themselves Babis/Bayanis. Even in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he call them "People of the Bayan".

They can call themselves whatever they want to but that does not change who they are...

Azalī
Iranian religion

WRITTEN BY
The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica
Encyclopaedia Britannica's editors oversee subject areas in which they have extensive knowledge, whether from years of experience gained by working on that content or via study for an advanced degree....
See Article History

Azalī, any member of the Bābī movement (followers of a 19th-century Iranian prophet, the Bāb) who chose to remain faithful to the Bāb’s teachings and to his chosen successor, Mirza Yaḥya, given the religious title Ṣobḥ-e Azal, after a split in the movement occurred in 1863. For about 13 years after the Bāb’s execution (1850), his followers acknowledged Ṣobḥ-e Azal as their lawful leader. In 1863, when Ṣobḥ-e Azal’s half-brother Bahāʾ Ullāh privately declared himself “him whom God shall manifest”—a new prophet foretold by the Bāb—the Bābī community polarized. The Azalīs rejected the divine claims of Bahāʾ Ullāh as premature, arguing that the world must first accept Bābī laws in order to be ready for “him whom God shall manifest.” Most Bābīs, however, favoured Bahāʾ Ullāh and, after the public manifestation of his mission in 1867, began the development of a new religion, the Bahāʾī faith.

Azalī | Iranian religion

 

[Trailblazer]

Even in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he call them "People of the Bayan".

Baha'u'llah sure does refer to them as such:

“Say: So great is the glory of the Cause of God that even the blind can perceive it, how much more they whose sight is sharp, whose vision is pure. The blind, though unable to perceive the light of the sun, are, nevertheless, capable of experiencing its continual heat. The blind in heart, however, among the people of the Bayán—and to this God is My witness—are impotent, no matter how long the Sun may shine upon them, either to perceive the radiance of its glory, or to appreciate the warmth of its rays.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 106

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

It does not sound like thy are doing fine to me

Nobody said they were flourishing yet. Baha'u'llah usurping Subh-i-Azal did have a considerable impact on the spread of the Babis/Bayanis.

Also for readers of the thread, notice how condescending Baha'i's are towards the Babis/Bayanis? there's a reason why they vilify them like this with their propaganda.

Talk is cheap, and so are accusations. I am still waiting for what you consider a historical account.
Please present proof of its historicity.

Start with E.G. Browne's "Materials for the study of the Babi religion", since you seem to have finished MacEoin's "Messiah of Shiraz" already this afternoon in a matter of hours

You don't read Arabic or Persian, so you are self-admittedly limited in knowing what took place.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Baha'u'llah sure does refer to them as such:

“Say: So great is the glory of the Cause of God that even the blind can perceive it, how much more they whose sight is sharp, whose vision is pure. The blind, though unable to perceive the light of the sun, are, nevertheless, capable of experiencing its continual heat. The blind in heart, however, among the people of the Bayán—and to this God is My witness—are impotent, no matter how long the Sun may shine upon them, either to perceive the radiance of its glory, or to appreciate the warmth of its rays.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 106

So there you go, so you now confess that you are using derogatory slurs?

You call them Azalis because you don't want to answer to them, and because you want to give the false image that Babis/Bayanis simply became the cult referred to as the "Baha'i faith".
Clever but your bull is easy to see through.

 

[Trailblazer]

One such example from Baha'u'llah of how he himself refers to them is:

Say: O people, if ye judge fairly and equitably, ye will testify to the truth of whatsoever hath streamed forth from the Most Exalted Pen. If ye be of the people of the Bayán, the Persian Bayán will guide you aright and will prove a sufficient testimony unto you; and if ye be of the people of the Qur’án, ponder ye upon the Revelation on Sinai and the Voice from the Bush which came unto the Son of ‘Imrán [Moses].
Gracious God! It was intended that at the time of the manifestation of the One true God the faculty of recognizing Him would have been developed and matured and would have reached its culmination. However, it is now clearly demonstrated that in the disbelievers this faculty hath remained undeveloped and hath, indeed, degenerated.
O ‘Alí! That which they accepted from the Bush they now refuse to accept from Him Who is the Tree of the world of existence. Say, O people of the Bayán, speak not according to the dictates of passion and selfish desire. Most of the peoples of the earth attest the truth of the blessed Word which hath come forth from the Bush.
By the righteousness of God! But for the anthem of praise voiced by Him Who heralded the divine Revelation, this Wronged One would never have breathed a word which might have struck terror into the hearts of the ignorant and caused them to perish. Dwelling on the glorification of Him Whom God shall make manifest—exalted be His Manifestation—the Báb in the beginning of the Bayán saith: ‘He is the One Who shall proclaim under all conditions, “Verily, verily, I am God, no God is there but Me, the Lord of all created things. In truth all others except Me are My creatures. O, My creatures! Me alone do ye worship.”’ Likewise in another instance He, magnifying the Name of Him Who shall be made manifest, saith: ‘I would be the first to adore Him.’ Now it behoveth one to reflect upon the significance of the ‘Adorer’ and the ‘Adored One’, that perchance the people of the earth may partake of a dewdrop from the ocean of divine knowledge and may be enabled to perceive the greatness of this Revelation. Verily, He hath appeared and hath unloosed His tongue to proclaim the Truth. Well is it with him who doth acknowledge and recognize the truth, and woe betide the froward and the wayward.
- from the Tablet named TAJALLÍYÁT


Or another passage:

Beware, beware lest thou behave like unto the people of the Bayán. For indeed they erred grievously, misguided the people, ignored the Covenant of God and His Testament and joined partners with Him, the One, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing. Verily they failed to recognize the Point of the Bayán, for had they recognized Him they would not have rejected His manifestation in this luminous and resplendent Being. And since they fixed their eyes on names, therefore when He replaced His Name ‘the Most Exalted’ by ‘the Most Glorious’ their eyes were dimmed. They have failed to recognize Him in these days and are reckoned with those that perish. Indeed, had they known Him through His own Self or by virtue of that which He hath revealed, they would not have repudiated Him when He appeared in this glorious and incomparable Name, which God hath ordained to be the Sword of His Revelation between heaven and earth, and through which truth is separated from error, even from now until the Day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the worlds.
- from the Tablet named SÚRIY-I-VAFÁ

Thanks for making my case.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Too bad that the Bab did not know all the dirty deeds that Azal would do after the Bab died. Only God can see into the future.

The Bab literally called Azal "God" in many places. He clearly though incredibly high of him, immensely. His station in regards to The Bab is infinitely higher than Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Thanks for making my case.

"My case" lol, you called them Azalis. They are Ahl al-Bayan (People of the Bayan) in the words of Baha'u'llah himself. So now you're gonna lie about what you are quoted saying above?