Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

[SeekerOnThePath]

but that does not change who they are...

The term that only you Baha'i's use in your own literature. That is not "who they are", that is what YOU call them derogatorily.

 

[Trailblazer]

Show us a non-Baha'i source that verifies your dogmatic, ideological-based claims about Subh-i-Azal. Something that doesn't rely on biased, unsubstantiated books of vitriol like the Dawnbreakers, etc, and the venomous words of your other founders against Subh-i-Azal (which amount to conjecture).

What reason would there be to believe another source would be more accurate? You are the one who is defending him. As Tony said, show us a source that attests to his character and his power to proclaim a Message given by God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ideological reasons, Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri was a terrible person and a very vile brother.

Got any actual evidence to prove that He was terrible and vile? Otherwise it's just a personal opinion.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

The Baha'i Faith does not exist within the limits of The Bible, nor does it make appeal to it.

This is something many critics of the Baha'i Faith can't seem to get through their heads.

Bit childish isn't it, just copying what I said and replacing the terms, when the nature of the scriptures in question are categorically nothing alike. And the place and purpose that these texts serve are innately distinctly different things.

The Baha'i cult makes appeal to the Bible, Qur'an, Bayan (to a lesser extent) and in the writings of Abdulbaha and Shoghi to the Bhagavad Gita too.
Your praxis is defacto nothing like Islam's in relation to The Bible.

The relation of Baha'i to the Babi'/Bayani texts are more akin to Christianity to Judaism, for manner of the way they are supposed to have a symbiotic relation to each other with likewise no claims of falsification or fabrication being made between the two. The finer details of course completely contradict such a view. But in theory, just as the New Testament is sellotaped onto the back of the Tanakh, so is the writings of the Baha'i founders in theory supposed to relate to The Bab. And also in the manner of closest in revelation.

The Bible is the writing of priests and scribes (then epistles in the NT), whereas the Qur'an is direct word of God delivered by an angel to a Prophet.
Even to The Bab himself such a comparison is not really possible, even though one may try to argue the role of the Hidden Imam as being like Gabriel/Jibreel.

The textual content of The Qur'an, as I've said, makes no appeal to The Bible and doesn't exist in symbiotic canon with The Bible. Baha'i's believe so, but no Muslims believe such a thing.
The nature of The Bible as a text is again, of a very dissimilar nature. It doesn't invalidate it on that basis alone but doesn't mean there is any kind of equality or subservience going on between The Qur'an and The Bible.

Baha'i's see the writings of The Bab, Baha'u'llah and the other founders, as being 'inspired' by God but no mainstream Baha'i sees the writings of Baha'u'llah as being the same kind of thing as The Qur'an. They regard it as a special thing for it's time, and of importance but not the same as their founders writings (Baha'u'llah, Abdulbaha, Shoghi etc). Baha'i's still place superior emphasis on the writings of those founders over the Qur'an of course.

I already wrote about this stuff way back in this post: Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[Trailblazer]

"My case" lol, you called them Azalis. They are Ahl al-Bayan (People of the Bayan) in the words of Baha'u'llah himself. So now you're gonna lie about what you are quoted saying above?

What's in a name? Why does it matter so much to you?

Encyclopaedia Britannica's called then Azalis. Are you going to blame the Baha'is for that too?

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

What's in a name? Why does it matter so much to you?

Everything, as has already been said.

Encyclopaedia Britannica's called then Azalis. Are you going to blame the Baha'is for that too?

Yes, the term originates with you, not them and is only used by you and people who use your sources. Western academia hasn't caught up with this yet because the spotlight isn't on Bayanis/Babis nor on Baha'i's as of the present, so you get away with biased garbage like this.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nobody said they were flourishing yet. Baha'u'llah usurping Subh-i-Azal did have a considerable impact on the spread of the Babis/Bayanis.

Also for readers of the thread, notice how condescending Baha'i's are towards the Babis/Bayanis? there's a reason why they vilify them like this with their propaganda.

Start with E.G. Browne's "Materials for the study of the Babi religion", since you seem to have finished MacEoin's "Messiah of Shiraz" already this afternoon in a matter of hours

You don't read Arabic or Persian, so you are self-admittedly limited in knowing what took place.

Do you mean MacEoin's propaganda?

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i cult

You are not going to make the Baha'i Faith into a cult just because you don't like it. The Baha'i Faith is a widely recognized world religion.

BBC - Religion: Bahá'í

Nobody can prove it was revealed by God, but nobody can prove ANY religion was revealed by God so it is just a matter of belief.

Only those who feel threatened call it names and try to take it down. That is basic psychology. The others who strongly believe in their own religions are willing to live in harmony with us.

You do not have that much power that you can take down a well-established world religion, but your attempt at defamation does not bother me because I know the Baha'i Faith was a Revelation from God. Everyone else can look at the evidence and decide for themselves.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Got any actual evidence to prove that He was terrible and vile? Otherwise it's just a personal opinion.

What reason would there be to believe another source would be more accurate? You are the one who is defending him. As Tony said, show us a source that attests to his character and his power to proclaim a Message given by God.

Again, you only accept your Baha'i authorized texts like the Dawnbreakers, so you know that nothing else will be accepted by you because this is an ideological and dogmatic concern in the mind of a Baha'i.
It's like a Christian doubting Paul.

There is, as of yet, seldom material on the Babis/Bayanis in English at this point because it just doesn't get much attention, neither does Baha'i'ism (hence why it gets away with so much garbage).

If you sincerely want to read some stuff, of what little we have in english from non-Baha'i sources, check these out:

A Brief Biography of His Holiness Subh-i Azal
Why was the History of The Bab Altered?
Subh-i-Azal : God for Bab and Satan for Baha’u’llah !!!

I've already recommended you two full books (totaling around 1500 pages) of scholarship which you haven't read. If you haven't read them, then there is not much I can do when you're asking "how?", "What?" and "Why?". If you choose to read them and study references as well, that's up to you.


It's all very rich of you when the sources you take for granted have no reference, they are only ideological propaganda material. Again, Dawnbreakers, seriously I have to deal with this?

 

[Trailblazer]

the Qur'an is direct word of God delivered by an angel to a Prophet.

Prove it. Otherwise it is just a belief.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Also for readers of the thread, notice how condescending Baha'i's are towards the Babis/Bayanis? there's a reason why they vilify them like this with their propaganda.

Do you mean MacEoin's propaganda?

You're being childish as I've said. All you're doing to me is saying: "I know you are but what am I?".

Unless you have something substantial to say, we might be done here (you with excuse after excuse and no attempt to validate your claims. Circular reasoning does not work Trailblazer).

 

[Trailblazer]

It's all very rich of you when the sources you take for granted have no reference, they are only ideological propaganda material. Again, Dawnbreakers, seriously I have to deal with this?

You do not have to "deal" with anything. This is just a forum, not real life.

Seriously, do I have to deal with this calumny?

A Brief Biography of His Holiness Subh-i Azal
Why was the History of The Bab Altered?
Subh-i-Azal : God for Bab and Satan for Baha’u’llah !!!

“No one casts stones at a tree without fruit. No one tries to extinguish a lamp without light! …….

And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, pp. 105-106

 

[Trailblazer]

Unless you have something substantial to say, we might be done here (you with excuse after excuse and no attempt to validate your claims. Circular reasoning does not work Trailblazer).

You have nothing more than I have to validate your claims. All you have is anti-Baha'i propaganda, nothing that can ever be proven to be true.

I already explained why I do not use circular reasoning but I notice I got no response to that post.
I am glad we are done here, unless I see more attacks on the Faith in which case it is my duty to defend the Cause of God, as per Baha'u'llah.

 

[Aupmanyav]

There is nothing substantial in any Abrahamic religion. Don't just pick up Bahais. It is only blind faith.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Prove it. Otherwise it is just a belief.

This is the way the Qur'an sees itself, it's not "my belief" nor misinterpretation.
In the passage you quoted from, you know very well I'm speaking of the style/format and topological nature of these different scriptures, not the validity of their claims.
The Qur'an is a book of self-reference, it speaks of itself and denotes it's speaker/author/revealer as God.
In Hadith the process of revelation itself is explicated in far more detail in the sense of historical context.
Nonetheless, the Qur'an routinely makes reference to it's nature throughout all of it's 114 Surahs.
Many Surahs even begin with such pronouncements - for example Surah 3, Surah 12, Surah 15, Surah 20, Surah 27, Surah 36, Surah 41, we can go on and on.
This is aside from the endless self-references of this nature further into most Surahs.
Again, my comment wasn't about the truth claims of those texts, but about the nature of the texts typologically - and in relation to your false comparisons and lack of understanding of how these texts relate to each other (admittedly though I have read you comment that you've never read the Qur'an, so there it

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

There is nothing substantial in any Abrahamic religion. Don't just pick up Bahais. It is only blind faith.

Thank you for your insightful comment.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

You have nothing more than I have to validate your claims. All you have is anti-Baha'i propaganda, nothing that can ever be proven to be true.

I already explained why I do not use circular reasoning but I notice I got no response to that post.
I am glad we are done here, unless I see more attacks on the Faith in which case it is my duty to defend the Cause of God, as per Baha'u'llah.

I said we're done because you just go around and around, and still don't address anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the way the Qur'an sees itself, it's not "my belief" nor misinterpretation.

The Qur'an does not see anything. It is just a book that sits on a shelf that you believe in.

You believe in the words in the Qur'an just as the Jews believe in the words in the Torah and the Christians believe in the words in the Bible. It is no different.

There is no proof that any religion came from God because there is no proof that God even exists.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

The Qur'an does not see anything. It is just a book that sits on a shelf that you believe in.

That goes to show how lacking you are on any knowledge of The Qur'an nor Islam. The Qur'an was not revealed by the Angel Gabriel in book form. The name Qur'an itself makes this to damn obvious, Qur'an means "recitation". Since it was revealed 1400 years ago it has been memorized, often in it's entirety, by Muslims. That is it's initial nature. It is memorized and assimilated practically. It's not dry words on a page.
It does exist in book form, sure, but that's not it's nature as a revelation.

Unlike the books of the Bible, it's not the word of scribes and priests, as I have already said. It is something that is always being recited every second of the day. It is a book of sound, of utterance.
You can read it as a book, sure, but again it's a recitation. Doesn't get much more clearer than that.

You believe in the words in the Qur'an just as the Jews believe in the words in the Torah and the Christians believe in the words in the Bible. It is no different

Simply no, once again you are making inapt comparisons. You can only say such things on the most superficial level possible, being "you have a scripture", well sure. The typological nature of that scripture and the way it functions in my religion has no comparison to Jews and Christians, apart from the most superficial comparisons that go for any scripture (which amount to saying nothing at all).

There is no proof that any religion came from God because there is no proof that God even exists.

Not very Baha'i of you to say that but you could be right. Resorting to such a response shows a bit of insecurity in my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

I said we're done because you just go around and around, and still don't address anything.

I guess you mean because I do not accept the anti-Baha'i propaganda as true.
Why would I believe it is true? There is no evidence to substantiate it as true.

When it comes right down to it, the anti-Baha'is only have one thing they try to use against the Bahai Faith, the history, but it won't work because they have nothing that can refute the recorded history of the Baha'i Faith in The Dawn-Breakers and God Passes By.