Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
As a non-Bahai, I find the evidence that you offer as good as that offered by napkin religion.No, other people could also believe that evidence, and then they would become Baha'is.
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Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
- Thread starter DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan
- Start date
"Shoghi Effendi says: " the study of the Qur’án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá’í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God."
It seems to me though, that the Bahai, regardless of what they might say, don't actually care about the Qur'an very much or even really consider it the "absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God" at all, they consider it some old dusty book invented by Muhammed which they regularly ignore because they have the Newer stuff, which is the writings of Baha'u'llah which has apparently made them really flippant about the Qur'an which is supposedly the ABSOLUTELY-AUTHENTICATED-REPOSITORY-of the-WORD OF GOD. I don't know, that seems like a BIG DEAL TO ME! The way the Bahai treat the Qur'an though (by never reading it, never having time to read it, refusing to read it, and also ignoring it, finding it a relic, finding it authored by Muhammed, finding it outmoded entirely and basically for the trash bin, finding it what has Muslims in the wrong and separating from it what has Bahai in the right), is like God's absolutely authenticated word (which there is NO WAY they believe that, or at least the people on this site, but I think probably all Bahai disregard the Qur'an in their heart of hearts) is not something worth even looking into!
www.islamawakened.com/quran You click that, you look at it, and there is no way that inside your hearts and minds you think that is actually God's Absolutely Authenticated Repository or anything, no way, you think its just rubbish made up by Old Muhammed the Man (not even really a Man-ifestation).
When you look at the writing of Baha'u'llah, you're supposed to feel and know that it is God speaking, those are God's words there, not the words of a mere man, but the words of God.
That is why I made my thread on tastes. I despise LIES and lying, even lying to oneself. Lets be honest. Logically, no one would ignore or act like they do if they thought that anything however old was actually THE UNIVERSE'S CREATOR'S WORD! What kind of psycho would just actually believe that and be like "Nah, not even interested in seeing what it has to say!", the heck!?
I'm curious to what degree though the words and writings of Baha'u'llah trigger that impression in you when read, that this is God speaking directly in those words?
If that doesn't even give that impact, then isn't it just some game you're all playing with yourselves? You don't believe any of it or in anything much at all really then? Or you read those words, and don't believe they are God speaking directly, but still think they are important to fight for or pretend they are God speaking directly for some reason?
I don't understand what goes on in the mind of each of you! Could you explain or even test it out and introspect and tell me the results in a sincere and authentic account of your real thoughts and reactions? Please! Thank you in advance!
Put it all out here please, if you haven't already, I have not caught up with all the posts yet, but if you could list all the evidences you have come by in your whole life and detail them out and convincingly, that might be good for people to see as well (including the Atheists or Agnostics who visit).
Why are you certain without even completing the reading of the Qur'an? It is because what Baha'u'llah has said which has convinced you that anything he says has to be true, so that if he said that about the Qur'an it must be true even without looking at the Qur'an or finishing it?
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
I was directed to this thread from another thread, and I have not read all 16 pages, but:
I tried to be a Baha'i for awhile and liked their syncretism. Unfortunately, one of the Baha'i rules is that if you wish to attend gatherings and be an official member, and you're transgender, you have to have the surgery done to alter your private parts. And I would have to only have relationships with men too. I asked about this question online, and though there was debate whether the Baha'i officials would hold me to that, it was kind of made clear that at least on the internet, other Baha'is wouldn't have been too overly eager for me to be a part of their group being who I am.
I tried to be a Baha'i for awhile and liked their syncretism. Unfortunately, one of the Baha'i rules is that if you wish to attend gatherings and be an official member, and you're transgender, you have to have the surgery done to alter your private parts. And I would have to only have relationships with men too. I asked about this question online, and though there was debate whether the Baha'i officials would hold me to that, it was kind of made clear that at least on the internet, other Baha'is wouldn't have been too overly eager for me to be a part of their group being who I am.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
As a non-Bahai, I find the evidence that you offer as good as that offered by napkin religion.
I love you napkin, but it does not work that way.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Here is my description of a Messenger of God, which is the same as a Manifestation of God:
A Messenger of God is not an ordinary man. Messengers of God, what Baha’is normally refer to as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.
Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory. All other human beings are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,
The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.
Baha'u'llah said the same thing as Muhammad, that He was expendable and could be replaced, because He was not important, it was the message that was important. Addressing the kings and rulers He said:
"All the rulers and kings of the earth honor and revere the descendants of their Prophets and holy men, could ye but perceive it. Ye, on the other hand, are responsible for such acts as no man hath, at any time, performed. Your misdeeds have caused every understanding heart to be consumed with grief. And yet, ye have remained sunk in your heedlessness, and failed to realize the wickedness of your actions.
Ye have persisted in your waywardness until ye rose up against Us, though We had committed nothing to justify your enmity. Fear ye not God Who hath created you, and fashioned you, and caused you to attain your strength, and joined you with them that have resigned themselves to Him (Muslims)? How long will ye persist in your waywardness? How long will ye refuse to reflect? How long ere ye shake off your slumber and are roused from your heedlessness? How long will ye remain unaware of the truth?
Ponder in thine heart. Did ye, notwithstanding your behavior and the things your hands have wrought, succeed in quenching the fire of God or in putting out the light of His Revelation—a light that hath enveloped with its brightness them that are immersed in the billowing oceans of immortality, and hath attracted the souls of such as truly believe in and uphold His unity? Know ye not that the Hand of God is over your hands, that His irrevocable Decree transcendeth all your devices, that He is supreme over His servants, that He is equal to His Purpose, that He doth what He wisheth, that He shall not be asked of whatever He willeth, that He ordaineth what He pleaseth, that He is the Most Powerful, the Almighty? If ye believe this to be the truth, wherefore, then, will ye not cease from troubling and be at peace with yourselves?
Ye perpetrate every day a fresh injustice, and treat Me as ye treated Me in times past, though I never attempted to meddle with your affairs. At no time have I opposed you, neither have I rebelled against your laws. Behold how ye have, at the last, made Me a prisoner in this far-off land! Know for a certainty, however, that whatever your hands or the hands of the infidels have wrought will never, as they never did of old, change the Cause of God or alter His ways.
Give heed to My warning, ye people of Persia! If I be slain at your hands, God will assuredly raise up one who will fill the seat made vacant through My death, for such is God’s method carried into effect of old, and no change can ye find in God’s method of dealing. Seek ye to put out God’s light that shineth upon His earth? Averse is God from what ye desire. He shall perfect His light, albeit ye abhor it in the secret of your hearts. " Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 223-225
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is not true at all. The Baha'is consider the Qur'an to be the Word of God just like the Bible, yet much more authentic. You cannot judge all the Baha'is by what I might say. I would love to have time to read the Qur'an but do you have any idea how many posts I receive in one day? I woke up to 20 new posts I have to answer and they are still coming in. How do you think I have time to answer all these and still have time for reading books, aside from my other duties in life?
My best Baha'i friend, who is a poster on this forum, took a course on the Qur'an and he knows it well, but he does not spend much time posting on forums and he is retired and has no responsibilities. By contrast I have nine cats and I have three houses I am responsible for, and I am still employed.
As I recall I explained that in my story of how I became a Baha'i and what happened after that. Yes, when I read the Writings of Baha'u'llah, I feel as if it is God speaking, when Baha'u'llah speaks as the Voice of God. All His Writings are not like that though. Sometimes he speaks from His station as a man and a Servant of God.
I answer these posts as I am able to, but I cannot answer all of them at once given there are only so many hours in a day.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I have posted what I consider to be evidence that Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be on this forum many times. I have it saved in a Word document and it is listed as categories of evidence people can research if they want to.
Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence. More specifically, Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).
“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106
His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh
The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book:
William Sears, Thief in the Night
The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I am certain because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about the Qur'an, as well as what Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi wrote about it. If I read it, it would only be my own personal opinion and that would not matter much.
I am certain of everything Baha'u'llah wrote is the very Word of God, just as you are certain that Muhammad spoke for God, and the passage below explains the reason why I am certain:
“He is a true believer in Divine unity who, far from confusing duality with oneness, refuseth to allow any notion of multiplicity to becloud his conception of the singleness of God, who will regard the Divine Being as One Who, by His very nature, transcendeth the limitations of numbers.
The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. This is the loftiest station to which a true believer in the unity of God can ever hope to attain. Blessed is the man that reacheth this station, and is of them that are steadfast in their belief.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 166-167
In the end Kit-Kat I see we are defined by our Faith.
I see no Baha'i can, or even should Judge you, or can or should have predudices against you, in fact under civil law they will support your rights for you to be as you choose.
To be a Baha'i is defined within the given Law. Many of those laws are a challenge to our current thoughts and lifestyles, but if we see Baha'u'llah gave a Message from God, then they are the Laws given by God, who knows us better than our own selves.
As such this life offers us all a challenge. Our nature, our nurture are moulded by mostly the world around us, a world that Baha'u'llah offered needed to see that true liberty was submission to God's commandments, and not to allow and unbridled Liberty in man's own ways and desires.
I struggled many years with this liberty and only found a piece of mind in the last 6 or so years. Where we focus our mind is the key. If we focus on our desires and needs in this world, they end up consuming us, when God becomes the focus, then a Light lifts many burdens from our heart, and gives us motivation to overcome what we once thought were impossible barriers.
Regards Tony
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
If memory serves me right, Bahaullah put Shoghi in charge, and he said some things which either implemented or later was interpreted to implement that:
1. If a person medically transitions, they then have to also get the surgery done. SRS.
2. If a person transitions, they can't typically have a Baha'i wedding if the person they want to marry isn't opposite their brand new gender.
And it does create kind of a bad situation. Baha'is seem to have to end up siding with the transgender people making an honest effort to be recognized, or their organization official(s) given charge by the direction and statements of Bahaullah.
Wow! That is fascinating! So, how did you become interested in Bahai, how did you find out about it first or hear about it and start learning about it? What is the whole experience like of becoming or working on becoming a convert? What are their meeting halls or conference rooms like? What are their meetings like? What is the inside scoop of the experience? Did they seem prejudiced or weird or anything? I didn't know they had those rules. From my mother who is a doctor who has dealt with many transgender patients in Hawaii, particularly male to female trans women, some of them report difficulties after the surgery by the removal of their testicles which eliminates their natural or original sex drive more which had led some to feel depressed and very different, so most of the successful and emotionally satisfied transgender trans women that I've talked to have retained their male sexual organs and thus their male sex drive as well while taking the female hormones and attaining by various means a more feminine and female appearance, and the more "beautiful" they seem to be to themselves (and probably others) and having whatever things both of these hormones provide which make them mentally and emotionally satisfied and retaining their usual thinking and desires and stuff, which seems to be pretty important, or at least being able to become stimulated sexually more and seeking it out and having some sexual ambitions which the male hormone seems to be important for.
There were others, that I talked to, which seemed extremely distressed by their testicles to the point where they literally mutilated themselves and had to go to the hospital but reported being very pleased by having finally gotten rid of their testicles, though this had only happened somewhat recently I think by the time I talked to them, so I'm not sure if something different occurred later, but it may be that they actually wanted to eliminate their sex drive for whatever reason. People with the surgery who take the female replacement therapies and female hormones report being happier and feeling better after a while, but the elimination of the old sex drive has been reported to me a few times as a distressing element, while others may say that the inclusion of some natural testosterone keeps them feeling more balanced.
The irreversibility of the procedure though is the element which really would make me caution people, while receiving hormones seems much less harmful overall as it can be stopped if there is anything bad going on about the reactions, while no one can yet have their testicles given back to them or other parts once they are removed.
Yes Kit-Kat, there will be guidance, I do not have it in memory, would need to look it up.
The point I was sharing is that it is our own choice in heart and soul to search and find if they are laws from God.
If we find they are, then it is our heart and mind that must ask God for the wisdom to know how we will face this life.
Regards Tony
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
No I have most certainly have NOT.
My beliefs are just a tinsy bit different. I don't believe Muhammed spoke the words of God, I believe All Words (even bad ones) are God's work, and I only like the Qur'an because it seems good to me. I believe that God also generated all the writing of me, you, and Baha'u'llah, but that our words are not really as overall useful, popular, effective, etc, as the Qur'an. So that is the difference, and what confuses me about people (All people):
How can you just wake up and read some writing of someone and be like "I believe everything this person is saying"? That is not how I deal with the Qur'an. If I didn't like the Qur'an, I would happily throw it in the trash as rubbish which does not accord with the truth or reality at all. So why the Qur'an is good is not "just because", but because it matches up well with reality and is useful, and I don't believe what it says except that it seems to be very accurate, and cool, and I like it a lot.
The words of Baha'u'llah (what did you read first or what did you read again which specifically was the moment you were like "yep, whatever this guy says is the truth"?) need to be read to see if they accord with the truth and the reality of things, and if they seem to, if we also enjoy them is a factor. You must enjoy them, but the fact that you are convinced of whatever something says without investigating it, seems sort of amazing and even weird to me.
I don't believe anything the Qur'an says at all "just because". I read it, and if it says something, it either accords with my experience of reality or not, when it talks about things no one was alive to know about, then its not that I believe it just because the Qur'an said it, but with the model the Qur'an presents of God, which matches up to my model based on reasoning, logic, and experience, I am confident that God can "make it so" or "make that be true", which is different from "that is what really did happen" necessarily.
Yet, there are people who believe in the Gospels and everything the Gospels say, why? There are people who believe whatever the Buddha says, why? There are people who even more shockingly believe in what Joseph Smith or Baha'u'llah says, but why? Even without checking? Why? How? Also, if there is some super duper God's word repository, why is everyone taking it for granted and not looking at it? It must be because no one really actually takes it very seriously that it really is the Creator of the Universe's authentic dictates, they think its just Muhammed talking.
I don't care about Muhammed, and I wouldn't believe anything anyone says without seeing if it can make sense or be logically sound, and when claims are made that so and so is the Manifestation of God or the Son of God or whatever various people say, that can not be made logically sound or reasoned clearly, and so the people who "just believe it" stun me, but there are many. Why would you want to be like that though? Now that you are anyway, can you explain how you became convinced by the words of someone out in the boondocks of the world and what piece of writing you read finally really touched your heart and you were like "Wow, this is God speaking" and "Wow, this is God speaking, and I won't read anything else God said but this specific time that God said it, because its the latest stuff by God and I'm not interested in God's old posts".
So no, I do not believe in the Qur'an, I happen to like it, I happen to find it useful, I happen to find that it matches up with reality, reason, is pragmatic, can be proven, makes sense. The God Manifestation stuff, the Son of God stuff, and so much more, even the "updated" stuff, none of that seems to match up with reality or appear proven or proveable.
So what happened is, you came by this writing, something clicked in your head, and you became totally and utterly convinced this guy was speaking God's words exclusively.
That is not how or why I prefer the Qur'an. Moby Dick is authored by God in my beliefs, that doesn't mean its necessarily a fun book to read or enjoyable, and in my case I'm excused from reading everything God has authored, since I believe God authored everything (though I have read a hell of a lot). The Qur'an is outstanding because its one of the things authored by God that is actually enjoyable for me, useful in numerous ways as well, and accords with the truth and the reality I see right before my eyes and experience every day. I don't believe in just "this one thing is authored by God only" and that "this other thing is one of the very few things authored by God which I also won't read even though its just like 600 pages or something and people have read it in an extremely short time". Likewise, they say God was exclusively in Jesus and controlling Jesus, while my God is in Everything and controlling Everything, so Jesus being controlled by God is no big deal, just like the Qur'an is one of an endless amount of good and evil books authored by One, Jesus was just one of an endless number of puppets including you and me.
So I'd think I must be crazy if I murmured to myself "They say that Muhammed said it, so it must be true", what the heck? What if its not true? What if it is a big fat lie? That is why we need verification, logic, reasoning, how is it true, how is it false, how can it be true, how can it be false?
Yet, what you're describing (and you understandably thought I have the same reasoning behind my liking the Qur'an, since what you described of your experience probably is the experience of other religious people as well in relation to the content they end up following or preferring) is that you just believe it because something touched your heart and mind about what is written so that without looking or verification or anything you just believe whatever someone says.
Lol, I've been watching a lot of Law & Order SVU and I'm starting to read what I'm saying like the character of Elliot Stabler played by Christopher Meloni.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
When I joined this forum May 2019, I was a seeker. I tried Panentheism but it didn't make much sense to me. Then I found the Baha'i faith and found it really really interesting. I was starting to feel good about this faith having studied 2 months. Then someone, it could have been someone on another site, and I think it was... pointed out how it'd be difficult for me to transition while subscribing to the Baha'i faith. I created a thread on this forum to ask whether this was true and get verification. In my opinion, it more or less was. This thread that I created kind of became larger than life and larger than I meant it to, and spanned about 750 posts, with some strong debate, especially from non-Bahai's not seeing these transgender views or what was being said about the subject as very genuine. I'd rather not link to the thread as I want to put it behind me for now. But I will say it also pained me to see the Baha'is get it rough in that thread too. I later announced that I would study HInduism since Krishna was a fascinating subject while I was Baha'i, and here I am. I really just practice my faith privately.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You might be interested in this article from BahaiTeachings,org:
Can Transgender People Be Baha’is?
This website also covers many questions you might have:
"Transsexuailty by/on behalf of Universal House of Justice, " Bahá'í Library Online, 2002-DEC-26, at: http://bahai-library.com/
Marriage
As to the question concerning marriage following a sex-change operation, the Universal House of Justice indicates that, “If a Bahá’í has had surgery and a change of sex has been registered officially on the birth certificate or otherwise, marriage is permissible to a person of the sex opposite to that which is officially registered” (extract 1).
Transsexuailty by/on behalf of Universal House of Justice
Good on you Kit-Kat, your heart is all that God asks for. Life is our test.
Regards Tony
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
That's pretty much what I said. I hope you know how big the surgery is and how making that choice causes 8 to 12 months of recovery.