-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
- Thread starter DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan
- Start date
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
If they are "hidden words", WHY are you showing everyone??
Do you know what "hidden" means?
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
What happened???!!!
So short!
How come when you post to me I have to read your whole life's history that takes several days to read???
Lol He Whom God SHALL MAKE MANIFEST was born before The Bab was born. I'd think that such a thing would ring alarm bells.
Let's say your totally right, then that makes Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri: "He Whom God Made Manifest Before You Were"(aka before The Bab himself).
Just can't make up how silly this is.
As I've already said, 15 years is by far not enough time for the maturation of the Babi/Bayani dispensation and Mirza Husayn-Ali Nuri was not appointed by The Bab. Anyone who has read The Bab's works would get red alarm bells, unfortunately Baha'i's don't care about The Bab's writings or the validity of their truth claims.
Muslim tradition included this concept.
The date of His birth confirmed the truth of the saying attributed to the Imam Ali, the Commander of the Faithful: "I am two years younger than my Lord." [the Bab is two years younger than Baha'u'llah] The mystery of this utterance, however, remained unrevealed except to those who sought and recognised the truth of the new Revelation. It was He, the Bab, who, in His first, His most weighty and exalted Book, revealed this passage concerning Baha'u'llah: "O Thou Remnant of God! I have sacrificed Myself wholly for Thee; I have consented to be cursed for Thy sake; and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient witness unto Me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days!" From: The Dawnbreakers, by Nabil, p.14
From Beharul Anwar Imam Ali (as) said, "I am two years younger than my Lord." (Ref: Beharul Anwar, volume 38, page 278. This tradition appears in the footnote)
Amazing Baha'u'llah also knew the footnotes of traditions.
I should stop answering you, do not know why I continue, maybe just to show thee is so much more you are yet to consider?
Regards Tony
Go ahead, read them and tell me what they say.
The challenge is given.
Regards Tony
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
TB won't let me borrow her Baha'u'llah bombastic gobbledygook decoder ring.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
What a strange Hadith to quote, and out of context too.
Imam Ali (pbuh) is speaking about the age that Prophet Muhammad (A.S.) died.
That is your interpretation for sure. Since it has been quoted in the Baha'i Writings and understood by many Muslim scholars that came Baha'i to mean other than what you offer.
So it is said Muhammad was born 22 April 571 AD and passed on 8 June 632 AD,
And that
Imam Ali born13 September 601 AD and Assassinated: 29 January 661 AD
How has that qot anything to do with that statement by Imam Ali (as) who said, "I am two years younger than my Lord."
Sounds like a great prophecy to me. That a gate for Muhammad talked about the future Gate to Baha'u'llah being 2 years younger.
When you read the Bayan, how it all ties together, makes even more sense.
Regards Tony
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
@Tony Bristow-Stagg
You can read it all in here:
http://www.shianeali.com/books/arabic/bihar-ul-anwar/Bihar ul Anwar vol 38 by Mulana Baqir Majlisi.pdf
(in the pdfs index it's 293 to get your quotes 278).
Here's a translation:
And sixty years (*). As for except for these two narrations, it is an anomaly that may be known in Sahih Al-Tariq, and no one among the people of the narration and reason will accept it. Before the Hijra and ten after it, and he lived after him for thirty years, and his death was in the forty year of the Hijra, so if we judge at his age of sixty-five according to the frequency of the news, his age at the origin of the Prophet (may God’s prayers be upon him and his family) was twelve years. His age at the source is ten years, and how can it be extracted from this calculation that his age at the source is seven years? Oh God, except that someone says: If his age was sixty years at his death, this is true for him, except that he is a motivation for the mawtirat from the news, denying the well-known of the effects, relying on the anomaly of the narrations, and whoever became to that was the first in his debate to explain to him by speaking in the news Determining the ways of the corrupt is one of the correct in it without risking in the article, and how a wise person can hear the news or look at something from the effects to claim that the Commander of the Faithful, may God’s prayers be upon him, passed away and has sixty years old, with his popular saying about him (1) in private and public undefined Shivering (2) his enemies with him in management and opinion: (I have been informed that some people say: Ali bin Abi Talib is brave but has no insight into war! undefined....(goes onto next page)
What Bahaullah quotes is actually the footnote written by Allamah Mohammed Baqir Majilisi (one of our big Shia Hadith scholars and collectors), which reads underneath the above translated passage:
(1) The news has spread: it has spread. (2) Urge: He waded into bad news and sedition with the intention of irritating people. * I say: The truth is that he (peace be upon him) was arrested after he entered the sixty-fourth year just as the Prophet, peace be upon him, was arrested and he entered into The sixty-sixth year and that is why he says about himself (peace be upon him) (I am two years younger than my Lord), meaning about his teacher and teacher Muhammad, may God’s prayers be upon him. That is because the Prophet (may God’s prayers be upon him and his family) made a hundred badas in the farewell argument: 66 on his person and 34 on who he is In his same status as (peace be upon him) the number of their years of life, for the Prophet in that year had been stabbed at the age of sixty-six and at the age of thirty-four. 39-42 (his age (peace be upon him) was the seventh of Dhu al-Hijjah in the year of the Hajj Farewell 10 of the Hijra 33 years and 4 months, and after that he remained until Ramadan 21 in the year 40 of the Hijra 29 years, 10 months and 16 days, so this is 63 years, two months and 16 days. Full (b)
So, how much more lies are you gonna fire from that canon Bahaullah, or should I say Āl-Masīḥ Ad-Dajjāl.
The next page (279), concludes the paragraph that was unfinished, with the following:
God is their father, and does anyone see them from me? I got up in it (1) and when I reached twenty, and here I’m shed over sixty (2), (but the one who does not obey has no opinion (3), (((peace be upon him)) was told that he had spent the sixty (4) at a time after which he lived for a long time. A long time, and that is in the days of two rows, and this belies the saying of the one who claimed that, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, he died and was sixty years old.
Last edited:
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
If you could prove that Baha'u'llah was not a Manifestation of God, that would do it.
Good luck.
Do you have any suggestions as to how one would be able to do that? Could one say just about anyone or anything is a "Manifestation of God"?
Thank you very much, I'm going to start very soon! I really appreciate having access to this writing and reading for free!
@Tony Bristow-Stagg
You can read it all in here:
http://www.shianeali.com/books/arabic/bihar-ul-anwar/Bihar ul Anwar vol 38 by Mulana Baqir Majlisi.pdf
(in the pdfs index it's 293 to get your quotes 278).
Here's a translation:
And sixty years (*). As for except for these two narrations, it is an anomaly that may be known in Sahih Al-Tariq, and no one among the people of the narration and reason will accept it. Before the Hijra and ten after it, and he lived after him for thirty years, and his death was in the forty year of the Hijra, so if we judge at his age of sixty-five according to the frequency of the news, his age at the origin of the Prophet (may God’s prayers be upon him and his family) was twelve years. His age at the source is ten years, and how can it be extracted from this calculation that his age at the source is seven years? Oh God, except that someone says: If his age was sixty years at his death, this is true for him, except that he is a motivation for the mawtirat from the news, denying the well-known of the effects, relying on the anomaly of the narrations, and whoever became to that was the first in his debate to explain to him by speaking in the news Determining the ways of the corrupt is one of the correct in it without risking in the article, and how a wise person can hear the news or look at something from the effects to claim that the Commander of the Faithful, may God’s prayers be upon him, passed away and has sixty years old, with his popular saying about him (1) in private and public undefined Shivering (2) his enemies with him in management and opinion: (I have been informed that some people say: Ali bin Abi Talib is brave but has no insight into war! undefined....(goes onto next page)
What Bahaullah quotes is actually the footnote written by Allamah Mohammed Baqir Majilisi (one of our big Shia Hadith scholars and collectors), which reads underneath the above translated passage:
(1) The news has spread: it has spread. (2) Urge: He waded into bad news and sedition with the intention of irritating people. * I say: The truth is that he (peace be upon him) was arrested after he entered the sixty-fourth year just as the Prophet, peace be upon him, was arrested and he entered into The sixty-sixth year and that is why he says about himself (peace be upon him) (I am two years younger than my Lord), meaning about his teacher and teacher Muhammad, may God’s prayers be upon him. That is because the Prophet (may God’s prayers be upon him and his family) made a hundred badas in the farewell argument: 66 on his person and 34 on who he is In his same status as (peace be upon him) the number of their years of life, for the Prophet in that year had been stabbed at the age of sixty-six and at the age of thirty-four. 39-42 (his age (peace be upon him) was the seventh of Dhu al-Hijjah in the year of the Hajj Farewell 10 of the Hijra 33 years and 4 months, and after that he remained until Ramadan 21 in the year 40 of the Hijra 29 years, 10 months and 16 days, so this is 63 years, two months and 16 days. Full (b)
So, how much more lies are you gonna fire from that canon Bahaullah, or should I say Āl-Masīḥ Ad-Dajjāl.
The next page (279), concludes the paragraph that was unfinished, with the following:
God is their father, and does anyone see them from me? I got up in it (1) and when I reached twenty, and here I’m shed over sixty (2), (but the one who does not obey has no opinion (3), (((peace be upon him)) was told that he had spent the sixty (4) at a time after which he lived for a long time. A long time, and that is in the days of two rows, and this belies the saying of the one who claimed that, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, he died and was sixty years old.
I would expect that an alternate reply can be found, after all the Persians had to pull out all guns to try to shoot Baha'u'llah down.
Problem is for them, no matter how hard they tried, they did not and God spread the word beyond the confines of Persia and Islam.
Thus alternate interpretation can be considered without fear of the sword.
Regards Tony
What I consider is that it can have more than one meaning, as all Mesengers and Disciples are to me tied together.
The way I see it It can mean Imam Ali died 2 years before Muhammad and was also 2 years younger. Then to me, in time that unfolds in Prophecy where the Gate to the Glory of God is also 2 years younger than the Glory of God.
The Bible also says the Glory of God comes by the way of the Gate.
In the future, I see a lot of this will be unravelled.
Regards Tony
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
All the context is given for you in the direct translation of the entire page which Baha'u'llah took a tiny snipped quote from.
Baha'u'llah quoted a footnote, a footnote, yes a footnote about the outlined situation quoted about Imam Ali (pbuh) in the main portion of the page.
"more than one meaning".
Dude, it's not an enigmatic or esoteric statement, Ali (pbuh) has plenty of those, but this is very directly not one of those.
Baha'u'llah quoted something far out of context which was not a prophecy, let alone anything to do with the Qa'im or Jesus or any other eschatological figure.
Well if Baha'u'llah is a Messenger from God, it was God that offered us that.
I am not a betting man, but hey, if I was, that sounds like the place to put all my bets.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You would have to prove that Baha'u'llah was deluded or a lying imposter.
Everything in Creation manifests God, each to its own capacity, but not everyone is a Manifestation of God as I described them.
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
You STILL trying to convince everyone how this Baha'u'llah's vague bombastic gobbledygook is "prophecy"?
Spoiler alert!
It isn't.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I (don't) wonder why they did that because Abdu'l-Baha explained the reason why.
“From the beginning of the world until the present time each ‘Manifestation’ 1 sent from God has been opposed by an embodiment of the ‘Powers of Darkness’.
This dark power has always endeavoured to extinguish the light. Tyranny has ever sought to overcome justice. Ignorance has persistently tried to trample knowledge underfoot. This has, from the earliest ages, been the method of the material world.
In the time of Moses, Pharaoh set himself to prevent the Mosaic Light being spread abroad.
In the day of Christ, Annas and Caiaphas inflamed the Jewish people against Him and the learned doctors of Israel joined together to resist His Power. All sorts of calumnies were circulated against Him. The Scribes and Pharisees conspired to make the people believe Him to be a liar, an apostate, and a blasphemer. They spread these slanders throughout the whole Eastern world against Christ, and caused Him to be condemned to a shameful death!
In the case of Muhammad also, the learned doctors of His day determined to extinguish the light of His influence. They tried by the power of the sword to prevent the spread of His teaching.
In spite of all their efforts the Sun of Truth shone forth from the horizon. In every case the army of light vanquished the powers of darkness on the battlefield 103 of the world, and the radiance of the Divine Teaching illumined the earth. Those who accepted the Teaching and worked for the Cause of God became luminous stars in the sky of humanity.
Now, in our own day, history repeats itself.
Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.
Our methods are different, we do not attack, neither calumniate; we do not wish to dispute with them; we bring forth proofs and arguments; we invite them to confute our statements. They cannot answer us, but instead, they write all they can think of against the Divine Messenger, Bahá’u’lláh.” Paris Talks, pp. 102-103
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
The problem... not only is it ignoring the context, but The Bab, or The Gate, and Baha'u'llah, or The Glory of God are titles. Any religious leader can call himself some name, like Yahweh or Maitreya. So that isn't all that great that the names they take on "fulfill" an out of context "prophecy". So can you fit The Bab and Baha'u'llah into the context of what is being said in Ezekiel?
Ezekiel 43 Then the man brought me to the gate facing east, 2 and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory. 3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown. 4 The glory of the Lord entered the temple through the gate facing east. 5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the Lord filled the temple.
6 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple. 7 He said: “Son of man, this is the place of my throne and the place for the soles of my feet. This is where I will live among the Israelites forever. The people of Israel will never again defile my holy name—neither they nor their kings—by their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings at their death. 8 When they placed their threshold next to my threshold and their doorposts beside my doorposts, with only a wall between me and them, they defiled my holy name by their detestable practices. So I destroyed them in my anger. 9 Now let them put away from me their prostitution and the funeral offerings for their kings, and I will live among them forever.