Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

[TransmutingSoul]

Let alone the fact that The Bab says that the Babi/Bayani dispensation will become a worldwide religion by the time He Whom God Shall Make Manifest arrives. That absolutely did not happen as of yet.
The Babi/Bayani dispensation remains an obscure religious tradition in Iran for the most part (there are Babis/Bayanis around the world of course, but most of them are in Iran).

So many say what must happen, yet God does as God wills.

By 1893 the Faith had spread to North America and by 1953 to all continents, all that while the Line of the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah continued.

I see the majority of the Bayani will most likely embrace Baha'u'llah when Iran opens to the world and the truth of what happens starts to unfold.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The passage I quoted in this OP indicated that it was an error for Babi to cling to the Bayan after the One whom God would make Manifest appeared. It said all their works would be brought to naught, if they did not accept the One whom God would make Manifest, which is now so obvious, was Baha'u'llah, As the Bayani have failed to grow and fruit, it is more logical to accept that Baha'u'llah is the vision of the Bayan fulfilled. It really the same as all the Faiths that still cling to scriptures past and have not seen the same gems in the scriptures given subsequent ages and in this age.

One thought is that the Bayan remained an unfinished book and it was given over to the One whom God would make manifest to finish the book, add to and take away from as God so willed. That is very clear in the Bab's writings, so it lends a strong case to Baha'u'llah being that promise. When one reads the works of Baha'u'llah it sings the same song that the Bab (Gate) opened humanity to.

All the best, hope all is well, Regards Tony

What is your interpretation of the 1511 and 2001?

The Bab says multiple times in the Persian Bayan that the dispensation of the Bayan would last between 1511 and 2001 years.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

In terms of Islam's relation to esotericism and such aforementioned things, I could say very much but it is, like with most religions, an essential core of what it is. However unlike most religions, it has survived in it's original state, as transmitted by Prophet Muhammad through the Twelve Imams, and also through the 49 Ismaili Imams, aka it's passed down through the Ahl al-Bayt. Such key examples include 'ilm al-Huruf (which The Bab is well know for) which is the science of the letters of the Arabic alphabet, that every arabic letter has deep meanings and that interpreting passages of the Qur'an can also be known through this manner, the Twelve Imams are all reported to have taught this in Hadith. This esoteric science has occurred throughout Islamic history, and while downplayed by mainstream Shi'i, is still an essential esoteric teaching of Islam. Most Surahs of the Qur'an open with mysterious letters which are veiled in such mystery, this is one Qur'anic example. Nowadays, 'ilm al-Huruf is typically practiced by Sufis, but it is nonetheless as Shi'i phenomena passed by Muhammad through his progeny.

And for any readers of this thread interested in some examples, here are some Hadith which give examples of 'ilm al-Huruf by the Imams of the Ahl al-Bayt:
1. Thaqalayn - Hadith Library - Al-Tawḥīd - The Explanation of‬‬ the Letters of the Alphabet.
2. Thaqalayn - Hadith Library - Al-Khiṣāl - The Interpretation of the Letters Which Make Up the Alphabet
3. Thaqalayn - Hadith Library - Al-Maḥāsin - Volume 1 - The Revelation in the Quran being an explanation of everything

This is not even the tip of the iceberg but it gives an example of how deeply esoteric (batin) Islam actually is (and the kind of background both The Bab and the Shaykhi School prior to him where coming out of, aside from the true nature of Islam contrary to popular mainstream depiction).
Even Sunni Hadith have such Hadith where Prophet Muhammad (A.S.) explains the meaning of letters.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, I am saying that in the Bayan, only previous dispensations have any substantial prophetic relevance towards the current dispensation.

Aka, the Torah and Tanakh is only relevant to Christianity, the Gospels are only relevant to Islam (despite Muslim belief in Tahrif which is it's own subject), the Qur'an and Hadith are only relevant to the Bayan, and the Bayan is only relevant to the dispensation of He Whom God Shall Make Manifest.

I see It is illogical to say the gems of past dispensations are not reborn in the new Message, as that Message came from the one previous and the one previous and the one previous, etc.

I see science helps in the understanding of this concept. We all have common ancestors, our genes still connected to our source, we take on aspects of what was gone before and evolve with new traits that can be passed on to future generations.

Baha'u'llah in contrast borrows from all of them and not the one most relevant to the true claimant of the promised one, in fact he mostly ignores the Bayan except for when it suits him.

Do you get me now?

Which the Bab allows for in the Bayan. It is warned that a Babi should not cling to the outward meaning of the Bayan.

"...At the time of the manifestation of Him Whom God shall make manifest everyone should be well trained in the teachings of the Bayán, so that none of the followers may outwardly cling to the Bayán and thus forfeit their allegiance unto Him. If anyone does so, the verdict of ‘disbeliever in God’ shall be passed upon him.

I swear by the holy Essence of God, were all in the Bayán to unite in helping Him Whom God shall make manifest in the days of His Revelation, not a single soul, nay, not a created thing would remain on earth that would not gain admittance into Paradise. Take good heed of yourselves, for the sum total of the religion of God is but to help Him, rather than to observe, in the time of His appearance, such deeds as are prescribed in the Bayán. Should anyone, however, ere He manifesteth Himself, transgress the ordinances, were it to the extent of a grain of barley, he would have trangressed His command.

Seek ye refuge in God from whatsoever might lead you astray from the Source of His Revelation and hold fast unto His Cord, for whoso holdeth fast unto His allegiance, he hath attained and will attain salvation in all the worlds. ‘Such is the bounty of God; to whom He will, He giveth it, and God is the Lord of grace abounding.’ 1 (1 = Qur’án 57:21)" Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Page 85

So, it was the rejection of Baha'u'llah by some Babi, that fulfilled that verse, and interestingly I also have concluded that some, if not most of the Baha'i, have also failed to adequately respond to the message of Baha'u'llah, thus that same verdict is also applicable.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

No, I am saying that in the Bayan, only previous dispensations have any substantial prophetic relevance towards the current dispensation.

Aka, the Torah and Tanakh is only relevant to Christianity, the Gospels are only relevant to Islam (despite Muslim belief in Tahrif which is it's own subject), the Qur'an and Hadith are only relevant to the Bayan, and the Bayan is only relevant to the dispensation of He Whom God Shall Make Manifest.

Baha'u'llah in contrast borrows from all of them and not the one most relevant to the true claimant of the promised one, in fact he mostly ignores the Bayan except for when it suits him.

Do you get me now?

I understand what you are saying but Baha’u’llah also did not give much emphasis to the Qur’an or the Bible, as He claimed to receive His own Revelation from God, and said that the Dispensations of the past had been abrogated.

I do not see that Baha’u’llah borrowed anything from any of the past dispensations but Muhammad borrowed a lot from the Bible.

This is an error because of how Baha'i's are taught to see The Bab as merely a John the Baptist figure, rather than a fully established prophetic figure in his own right. It is a false assumption and one that makes no epistemological sense, it results in the fallacy of the assumed conclusion.

No, we are taught that the Bab was a Manifestation of God in His own right and that He ushered in an entirely new religious cycle called the Cycle of Fulfillment. We do not focus on the Bab because we believe that Baha’u’llah picked up where Baha’u’llah left off and that Baha’u’llah was the one who the Bab was referring to as Him Whom God shall make manifest. Moreover, I recall some of the laws of the Bab from the Bayan posted on a Baha’i forum, and these laws are not what anyone would ever accept and follow universally in this age. Those laws were only intended to apply to the Babis during a very short span of history in one part of the world.

Occult is a loaded term but I refer to anything involving mysticism, causing change (whether to one's self or to the outside world), metaphysics in general, experimenting with altered states of consciousness, interacting with entities, digging deep into scriptures, and the general spiritual path itself (which is an attainment of salvation).

In terms of Islam's relation to esotericism and such aforementioned things, I could say very much but it is, like with most religions, an essential core of what it is. However unlike most religions, it has survived in it's original state, as transmitted by Prophet Muhammad through the Twelve Imams, and also through the 49 Ismaili Imams, aka it's passed down through the Ahl al-Bayt. Such key examples include 'ilm al-Huruf (which The Bab is well know for) which is the science of the letters of the Arabic alphabet, that every arabic letter has deep meanings and that interpreting passages of the Qur'an can also be known through this manner, the Twelve Imams are all reported to have taught this in Hadith. This esoteric science has occurred throughout Islamic history, and while downplayed by mainstream Shi'i, is still an essential esoteric teaching of Islam. Most Surahs of the Qur'an open with mysterious letters which are veiled in such mystery, this is one Qur'anic example. Nowadays, 'ilm al-Huruf is typically practiced by Sufis, but it is nonetheless as Shi'i phenomena passed by Muhammad through his progeny.
Other examples include prayer (Salaah) itself and it's meanings, Dhikr (mantra) as well. All of which relate to altered states. Islam is very highly mystical at it's core.

Even Baha'u'llah happens to carry over some of these traits himself.

Thanks for explaining all of that, but a mystic I am not. I believe that at its core all religion is mystical but that has never been my particular bent, because being close to God has never been my bent. In fact, I would probably be an agnostic has I not become a Baha’i, as religion has never been my thing. I was always more interested in psychology and later homeopathic medicine was a passion. Animals are also a passion of mine.

The question, and the irrational answer, remains that Baha'i's have an entirely limited exposure to The Bab, yet are expected to accept Baha'u'llah without first understanding The Bab.
Though in many senses this is what Christians are like towards Judaism anyway, so it's not particularly a new trait.

I do not consider this limited exposure to the Bab ideal, but since I do not know the reason for it I am not going to draw unfounded conclusions. You draw a good parallel in comparing what Christians are like towards Judaism. The salient difference is that the Torah has been translated into English so Christians can read it whereas the Writings of the Bab have not been translated into English.

I'm a person who studies everything, anyway. I grew up a Christian and have studied Judaism (and continue to study them all), so I am in no way a person of such a type. I have a large library of physical book and an even larger pdf library of books, both scriptures, books about religions and philosophy, politics, psychology etc. Just to get a better understanding of me. I'm a Muslim but I read stuff from all sides of the camp, though I tend to have a strong aversion to anything that is merely just proselytizing (as it offers no value to anybody).

I am probably your polar opposite when it comes to religion as I was not raised in any religion or even believing in God so I never had a keen interest in either. I jointed the Baha’i Faith during my first year if college because of the spiritual teachings and principles, not because of God or even Baha’u’llah. I posted the story of how I became a Baha'i on this thread Proof of Islam? in case you are interested.

These are all things claimed by the Qur'an itself. I understand why Baha'i appeals to you, though despite the typical negative reputation westerners have towards Islam, it still has the same emphasis in it's sacred texts and claims the same universality.
The Qur'an makes claim to the Primordial tradition of Prophet Adam, via the Prophet Abraham. It calls both the ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book, aka Jews and Christians) to embrace not their own wild variations but rather to understand the significance of Abraham as the substantiator of the universal religion. As a Revelation of God directly, it claims to be a restoration of this through Prophet Muhammad (who himself is much like Abraham, Moses and David all combined but also containing the esoteric heart of Christianity in it's inward teachings).
Oneness of Humanity and anti-racism is mentioned in various passages of the Qur'an, plus in Prophet Muhammad's farewell sermon.

"Do not follow that of which you have no knowledge. Indeed the hearing, the eyesight, and the heart —all of these are accountable." - Qur'an 17:36

Indeed, Islam is the closest religion to the Baha’i Faith of all the other religions, and it has similar teachings, especially with regard to the former religions. The main issue I have with Islam is that it claims Muhammad is the final Prophet and the best Prophet, and that of course is similar to Judaism and Christianity who both believe that are the best and last religion from God. At least Islam recognizes the religions that preceded it as valid so that is a huge difference.

I do not know if you have ever read the book entitled the light that shineth in the darkness by Udo Schafer:

https://www.amazon.com/Light-Shineth-Darkness-Udo-Schaefer/dp/0853980721

About half of the book is dedicated to comparing the Baha’i Faith to Islam and explaining how Muhammad is perceived in the West. Unfortunately, I have never been able to find the book to read online.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

I knew a guy on a Baha'i forum who was a Muslim, became a Baha'i and then dropped out and became a Muslim again, but then He ended up being a Baha'i and He is still a Baha'i.

I'd love to know about that character, why he dropped out (and how exactly), and then why he returned. Like, when he became a Bahai what was the difference with being a Muslim and being a Bahai? When he dropped out, what did he drop exactly or what was the difference again? Was it something he said? He said "I'm doing everything the same, I just don't believe Baha'u'llah is God's manifestation"?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

What did he do that was good? If any of the accounts in Baha'i history are correct, he was a bad guy.

Can you disprove that?

Who is Subh-i-Azal again, and why was he a bad guy (or good guy, or neutral guy)?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

This is awesome, I'm learning a TON reading this stuff you are all posting (finally!) Thank you so much, and please continue!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is your interpretation of the 1511 and 2001?

Way out of my current understanding, we do not have an authorized translation of those verses. I have access to the translations done both from the french, or the first book done by a Bayani, but they may fall well short.

I did start reading parts of those translations and see it is a very profound work, basically dedicated to the 'One whom God would make Manifest'.

"So in number systems of that time, words are comprised of letters which have a numerical value, to which we see in that verse.
Number of the Name of God which is Ghiyath (1511) has passed, enter into it. If he does not show up at that time and tarries until the number of the Name of God which is Mustaghath (2001)"

I do not know the original Arabic word, so I can not say if these numbers do reflect those quoted words.

When using the numerical system the number can be reduced to the single digit. So 1511 can be seen as 8 and 2001 can be been as 3.

All the best, it will take scholars of the future to unravel a lot of this.

Regards Tony

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

I understand what you are saying but Baha’u’llah also did not give much emphasis to the Qur’an or the Bible, as He claimed to receive His own Revelation from God, and said that the Dispensations of the past had been abrogated.

For brevity, the blueprint of Baha'i'sm is found in Islam, the Qur'an, Sufism and the Babi/Bayani tradition (even though it severely whitewashes it).

The actually writings themselves of Baha'u'llah regularly reference, quote and make allusion to things in the Qur'an and Bible. This is well attested to Baha'i's themselves and often placed in the footnotes of Baha'i texts.

Indeed, Islam is the closest religion to the Baha’i Faith of all the other religions, and it has similar teachings, especially with regard to the former religions. The main issue I have with Islam is that it claims Muhammad is the final Prophet and the best Prophet, and that of course is similar to Judaism and Christianity who both believe that are the best and last religion from God. At least Islam recognizes the religions that preceded it as valid so that is a huge difference.

I do not know if you have ever read the book entitled the light that shineth in the darkness by Udo Schafer:

https://www.amazon.com/Light-Shineth-Darkness-Udo-Schaefer/dp/0853980721

About half of the book is dedicated to comparing the Baha’i Faith to Islam and explaining how Muhammad is perceived in the West. Unfortunately, I have never been able to find the book to read online.

Baha'i scholar Moojan Momen wrote a book called "Islam and the Baha'i faith" which covers similar ground. Other such books by other Baha'i authors have been written.
I'm not unfamiliar, personally.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well to assume a Babi/Bayani position to answer that (as I'm only a Muslim), you need to have hope. It's 2020 and we have only passed like 2% of the prophesied length of time that the Babi/Bayani dispensation will last. There is much hope, even in spite of what Baha'i's have done to damage the Babis/Bayanis.

What are the Babis/Bayanis actually doing?

You can hardly blame the Baha'is for what happened to them. If they had the truth they would have flourished, as Tony said. Moreover, what they "tried" to do to the Bahai Faith is an abomination to God, not that it matters because they are not going anywhere. Islam is projected to overtake Christianity by the year 2060, but that is because it is a true religion from God.

Do you know what respite is?
And as this Tablet very incontestably states, it's addressed to somebody not even born yet.

My interpretation is that the Bab was addressing the Babis who were adults at that time when He wrote the following:

I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication.

And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding. Thou dost indeed suffice every created thing and causest it to be independent of all things, while nothing in the heavens or on the earth or that which lieth between them can ever suffice Thee.’

So the Babis were given a respite of nineteen years to recognize Him Whom God shall make manifest as a token of God's favor, so that those who had embraced the Babi Cause could be rewarded by God who is the Lord of grace abounding.

Respite: a short period of rest or relief from something difficult or unpleasant.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=respite

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

What are the Babis/Bayanis actually doing?

For the most part practicing Taqiyah because they can't practice their religion in Iran openly and don't have the kind of networking and institutions as Baha'i's later developed.
They are, as I've said, there in the background, watching as the world happens until their time of growth happens. Seeing that they're like 2% into their dispensation, they are doing fine at the moment - with due consideration to the situation.

You can hardly blame the Baha'is for what happened to them. If they had the truth they would have flourished, as Tony said. Moreover, what they "tried" to do to the Bahai Faith is an abomination to God, not that it matters because they are not going anywhere. Islam is projected to overtake Christianity by the year 2060, but that is because it is a true religion from God.

Yeah, according to Baha'i sources Dawnbreakers? lol give me a break You don't even have an original of that text, and Babi/Bayani and general Persian sources from around that period thourghrally refute such Baha'i claims - which are, when boiled down, of a dogmatic, doctrinal and ideological nature, not a historical.

Such Baha'i texts are more like the four gospels, where it is an appeal to faith for their historicity. (though such a comparison is still too generous).

My interpretation is that the Bab was addressing the Babis who were adults at that time when He wrote the following:

I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: ‘Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayán in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication.

And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee. Thou art verily the Lord of grace abounding. Thou dost indeed suffice every created thing and causest it to be independent of all things, while nothing in the heavens or on the earth or that which lieth between them can ever suffice Thee.’

So the Babis were given a respite of nineteen years to recognize Him Whom God shall make manifest as a token of God's favor, so that those who had embraced the Babi Cause could be rewarded by God as a token of God's favor and grace abounding.

Respite: a short period of rest or relief from something difficult or unpleasant.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=respite

As already mentioned, Baha'u'llah was two years older than The Bab, he was also around 30 when this tablet was written. "Granting respite" to somebody already present in the community (the brother of Subh-i-Azal) is purely a nonsensical idea. Baha'u'llah was again a contemporary of The Bab, and not 1511 to 2001 years later. Again, think about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

For brevity, the blueprint of Baha'i'sm is found in Islam, the Qur'an, Sufism and the Babi/Bayani tradition (even though it severely whitewashes it).

I cannot disagree with the part about the blueprint, but that does not mean that Baha'u'llah did not receive His own Revelation from God.

The actually writings themselves of Baha'u'llah regularly reference, quote and make allusion to things in the Qur'an and Bible. This is well attested to Baha'i's themselves and often placed in the footnotes of Baha'i texts.

That is true. The Qur'an also references the Bible repeatedly, but that does not mean that Muhammad did not receive His own Revelation from God.

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

"Granting respite" to somebody already present in the community (the brother of Subh-i-Azal) is purely a nonsensical idea. Baha'u'llah was again a contemporary of The Bab, and not 1511 to 2001 years later. Again, think about it.

Plus such an idea also makes the role of The Bab actually meaningless and worthless because Baha'u'llah was a contemporary.
The only room there is, in the writings of The Bab and in the Babi/Bayan tradition, is an appointed successor (who is not He Whom God Shall Make Manifest). Such a person is incontestably Subh-i-Azal, according to The Will And Testament Of The Bab, as well as several other texts of The Bab which mention Azal's importance and Station.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I started to reply to this, this morning and lost the lot such is life! Your posts are far to busy for my limited patience, sorry about that, you post as genuine seeker of truth. I hold back mostly these days, have been caught many a time by people dangling a bait.

The harmful effect though, is to create doubt in people and make them question their beliefs and decisions, by using various tactics.

It is not meant to lead to what I believe is ultimate harm, but what I think is a healthy irreverence and skepticism regarding the things and people we have learned to love or trust somehow.

It is always healthy to question what you believe. How we do this is a part of our journey.

As far as I'm aware, if you're a devout Bahai person, you're basically practicing Islam (as far as the barely any information or detail I'm receiving), which is mostly fine by me, and the only thorn in it all, is the disrespect Muslims feel and have towards Baha'u'llah and maybe Bab as well, and so, this thread is for the purpose of either getting people over that hump, or calling into question the legitimacy of Baha'u'llah as well as any other heroes of salvation.

I see a Baha'i practices the Law given by Baha'u'llah, which makes them a practicing Baha'i and not a Muslim who practices the Law given by Muhammad.

I think that whatever is good (and if everything is good and great, then to take everything) in the writings of any religion or religious figure should be taken, read, adopted, applied effectively for good and spreading good. So that there is no harm ultimately in the writings and teachings of Baha'u'llah or his movement, except in the tendency of many of its followers to disregard the Qur'an as outdated and to ignore it in favor of the endless seeming words of Baha'u'llah, especially if the Qur'an is supposedly from God, and even more disturbingly if Baha'u'llah is just some guy who writes or talks a lot and is not God, the manifestation of God, or really much of anything to do with God or God's commands, then one is possibly wasting their time and life on him instead of focusing on the Qur'an (which the Bahai claim was the real legitimate scripture preceding or before Baha'u'llah and Bab).

I can only say that God does as God wills and gives the Message God chooses, through the Messenger chosen by God. It is up to each of us to consider who are the Messengers and if we are wasting out time or not!

So why is Baha'u'llah a thorn in my soft flesh? I think it is because of Baha'u'llah simply being the cause or focal point of disagreement and differences, inhibiting a more complete mutual acceptance of One Religion, while being irritatingly "so close" to just that, but making claims which are to Muslim ears (which I personally take to be sort of square shaped donkey ears in my case, like those of Sutekh) unacceptable, creates difficulties and separation from being absorbed into the Muslim Borg Blob. The Muslims are the majority by far, even at the time of the early days of the Bahai movement, so why are they being asked to accept these things from someone in favor of a One World Religion, when they have the One World Religion already, are bigger in number, and it would be more efficient to simply be absorbed back into and under the fatty Muslim fold?

Such is the Quandary of Faith given by God. The Quran gives the same challenges as the Baha'i Writings do. It challenge us to see One God in many Names.

It doesn't seem too hard to look with bright eyes into the future to see where things are headed. It could be, that if Baha'u'llah appeared to have taken over Islam and Bahai was the biggest or second biggest religion and single biggest denomination in the world, that I'd simply join whoever appears to be the likely winner with views close enough to mine, in order to ride them into victory, but nothing seems to indicate to me that such a successful progression is underway in comparison to Islam in its various forms.

I do not see it as a game to be one, but as a way of life to embrace. I see the world is learning what lifestyle it needs to embrace to find our harmony under One God.

So, what were some of the points I made in this typical of me blathering:
1. I believe that my writing has a function of potentially leading people to question everything, in order to shake the tree and see what falls and how strong it really is.
2. I think there is a cause for doubt regarding many claims of human beings and even in their abilities or acts.
3. If the strategy or goal is a One World Religion, you have some easier options and vehicles to use potentially than a new campaign with a new religion distinguishing itself.
4. I am pleased by all people increasing in faith or losing their faith, and perceive my insidious activities and spiritual venom to have an ultimately good cause, like Chemotherapy.
5. Only the strongest (or stupidest) will survive (in their understandings).

I see the Word given by God is the standard. The Bible offers this parable;

Matthew 13:24-30 The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
'24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

Regards Tony

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

That is true. The Qur'an also references the Bible repeatedly, but that does not mean that Muhammad did not receive His own Revelation from God.

That's not true actually. The Qur'an references Biblical figures, but often in the context of refuting things the Bible says about them (such as Solomon becoming a Pagan, seen in Surah 2:101-102, in conjunction with the book of 1 Kings, or Jesus being crucified in reference to the infamous Surah 4:157 etc). The Qur'an never actually quotes Biblical passages and doesn't acknowledge the Bible itself, only on rare occasion does it give vague allusion which can be seen reflected in certain Biblical passages but not word-for-word and not even always in meaning (such as when the Qur'an supposedly quotes the Talmud yet with a meaning antithetical to the passage alluded to). The Qur'an also makes allusion to extra-Biblical things (which Christians try to attack the Qur'an for - such as the one sentence reference to Jesus making birds out of clay through the holy spirit) for often the same purposes. The Qur'an doesn't exist within the limits of The Bible, nor does it make appeal to it. This is something many critics of The Qur'an can't seem to get through their heads.

Of course Baha'i's choose to ignore and gloss over this.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who is Subh-i-Azal again, and why was he a bad guy (or good guy, or neutral guy)?

That depends upon if you ask the Baha'is or the Azalis: Azali - Wikipedia

Here is a neutral account, perhaps too neutral.

Subh-i-Azal - Wikipedia

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

That depends upon if you ask the Baha'is or the Azalis: Azali - Wikipedia

Here is a neutral account, perhaps too neutral.

Subh-i-Azal - Wikipedia

Azali is a derogatory term created by Baha'i's.

Followers of Subh-i-Azal just call themselves Babis/Bayanis. Even in the writings of Baha'u'llah does he call them "People of the Bayan".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Such a person is incontestably Subh-i-Azal, according to The Will And Testament Of The Bab, as well as several other texts of The Bab which mention Azal's importance and Station.

You are free to post this persons character and his power to proclaim a Message given by God.

After all we have some good examples to compare with. Jesus, within 3 years gave His life. The Bab within 6 years Gave His Life, Baha'u'llah chose 40 years of suffering, which included being given poison by his jealous half brother Subh-i-Azal, who would hide away in disguise at the first sign of trouble. Where as Baha'u'llah rode right into the hands of the enemy to prove His innocence, Subh-i-Azal liased with the enemy spreading slanderous accusations to try to make his feelings of superiority known. Baha'u'llah protected and cared for His half brother through all this.

The time came when this situation could not longer be maintained and God ordained the parting of ways. Thus Baha'u'llah offered a meeting with all Babi, where both Baha'u'llah and half brother Subh-i-Aza would face off in debate and thus prove who was the One that the Bab was preparing humanity for.

Of course history has shown who was the coward and did not attend these meetings, Baha'u'llah was seated and ready, but a coward is a coward and a lying deceitful coward, is not a Manifestation from God.

I hope that make it clear about the half brother Subh-i-Aza, who also had his partners in crime. What happened to them, where are their names in the world, gone forgotten, dust.

Calm now, Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd love to know about that character, why he dropped out (and how exactly), and then why he returned. Like, when he became a Bahai what was the difference with being a Muslim and being a Bahai? When he dropped out, what did he drop exactly or what was the difference again? Was it something he said? He said "I'm doing everything the same, I just don't believe Baha'u'llah is God's manifestation"?

I wish I could remember everything he said but unfortunately the Baha'i forum where I knew him from closed recently so I cannot go back and ask him now. As I recall though, he never lost faith that Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God, he just preferred some aspects of Islam to the Baha'i Faith, but then he realized he was really a Baha'i and he could have both religions!