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Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I like to think "we" are. But we also recognize the value of time as for us, this is our only shot at existence and don't wish to waste time studying every religion under the sun. Hence we often ask for the theists ***strongest*** piece of evidence and if we find that lacking, why bother investigating the lesser claims? I have reviewed the material you have provided, and find it lacking. So be it. No skin of my nose and as long as you are not trying to force your beliefs onto others and you are happy, then I am sincerely happy for you.
And as I said before, it is also no skin off my nose what you believe or disbelieve.
However going on the assumption that "god" is at least an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent entity, as most theists claim, then I can honestly say I have no idea what it would take to convince me. BBBUUUTTT......

An omniscient god WOULD know what it would take to convince me, an omniscient god COULD make that happen and an omnibenevolent god would want me to know to avoid the eternal hellfire of the afterlife (or what ever version of "hell" the theists believes in). I can thus at least conclude that THAT god either does not exist or lacks one of those 3 attributes.
Do you have any idea how many times I have heard this from atheists? I will tell you what I have told them. You are wrong about God because you don't know one single thing about God and how God operates.

An omniscient god DOES know what it would take to convince you, an omniscient god COULD make that happen and an omnibenevolent god would want you to know that He exists. However, you cannot conclude that God does not have those three attributes simply because He does not do what you want Him to do and convince you that He exists.... In fact, any God that did what you wanted Him to do (instead of what He wants/chooses to do) would not be omnipotent because an omnipotent God ONLY does what He wants/chooses to do, period. This is logic 101 stuff. Baha'u'llah wrote:

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Gleanings, p. 73

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284

So what we can conclude is that God wants you to do your own homework in order to determine if He exists.
Who do atheists think they are that God owes it to them to convince them that He exists? That would totally violate free will and the right to choose.

I would not waste any more time on this but since I already have it written up in several Word documents I will just copy/paste the one I think is most suitable, and you can do with it what you will.

God does not want to MAKE people believe He exists. God wants us to determine He exists by using our own innate intelligence coupled with a sincere effort, which demonstrates our desire to know.

Baha’u’llah wrote that God could have made all men one people. In the context of the passage below, it means that God could have made all people believers. The passage goes on to say why God didn’t do that... In short, God wants us to do our own homework and come to our own conclusions

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71


According to this passage, is that God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and applying their free will. God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him. God wants to distinguish those people from the others who are not sincere, those who are unwilling to put forth any effort.

This is related to free will. Everyone has free will so it is a level playing field. Everyone can look at Baha’u’llah if they choose to do so... However, that requires willingness and effort, just like anything in life... God wants us to make a sincere effort, and thereby prove our sincerity to ourselves; not to Him, because God already knows who is sincere and not.

“The incomparable Creator hath created all men from one same substance, and hath exalted their reality above the rest of His creatures. Success or failure, gain or loss, must, therefore, depend upon man’s own exertions. The more he striveth, the greater will be his progress.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 81-82

This is related to free will. If God convinced everyone that He exists we would all just be automatons believing in God simply because God foisted Himself on us. God does not want it to be that easy, God wants us to make a sincere effort to determine if He exists, and thereby prove our desire to believe in Him and prove our sincerity...
As tom \\"I have never received any realistic answers"\\, if god "transcends" time and space, then why does the evidence have to be "realistic"? Isn't god beyond reality?!?
This has nothing to do with God or His limitations, it is all related to human limitations, what humans can understand. God cannot makes us capable of what we are incapable of, we are as God created us. So the evidence that God exists has to be what we can comprehend as evidence. Not only that, but that but it is not just a simple matter of knowing God exists. What good is that if we know nothing about God or His Will for us?
Please tell me how YOU define god and perhaps I will be better able to answer your question on a more personal basis.
Below is the Baha'i view of God:

The Bahá'í view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation......

The Bahá'í teachings state that there is only one God and that his essence is absolutely inaccessible from the physical realm of existence and that, therefore, his reality is completely unknowable. Thus, all of humanity's conceptions of God which have been derived throughout history are mere manifestations of the human mind and not at all reflective of the nature of God's essence......

Although human cultures and religions differ on their conceptions of God and his nature, Bahá'ís believe they nevertheless refer to one and the same Being. The differences, instead of being regarded as irreconcilable constructs of mutually exclusive cultures, are seen as purposefully reflective of the varying needs of the societies in which the divine messages were revealed.[8]

While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith
 
You are wrong about God because you don't know one single thing about God and how God operates.
CORRECT!!! Seeing as I am an atheist and don't believe in "gods", it only stands to reason... logically... that I don't know anything about "god" other than how theists define said god! Same way I don't know anything about fairies other than how people define fairies!

omnipotent God ONLY does what He wants/chooses to do, period. This is logic 101 stuff
Again... RIGHT! And if god wanted me to know him and CHOSE to make it happen, it would happen.... no?!?

God does not want to MAKE people believe He exists
According to this passage, is that God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and applying their free will. God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him. God wants to distinguish those people from the others who are not sincere,
How DARE you insinuate I am insincere!!! I have always had an open mind to ANYTHING, regardless of how outlandish the claim, as long as it is supported by Logic, Reason &/or Evidence!!! How dare you claim to know my intentions or "heart" in this matter!!!

And yes... the tired 'ole "FREE WILL" claim. This is a demonstrable pile of bull****! Hypothetically Satan knew of god and still chose to rebel against him! There is nothing that states that if god proves his existence to me that I would have to ACCEPT him as the "one true savior"!


God cannot makes us capable of what we are incapable of, we are as God created us.
Do you not see how this is a ridiculous statement?!? If we are "as god created us", then isn't it HIS (her?) fault that we are incapable of realizing gods existence! It circles back to the atheist quote of, "god made me an atheist"!!! It's just silly and beneath you IMHO...

The Bahá'í teachings state that there is only one God
Bahá'ís believe they nevertheless refer to one and the same Being.
Baha'u'llah wrote:

<<YAWN>> I know you, and others, are really taken by the words of Bahá'í but for the love of god, you need to stop quoting Bahá'í to prove the existence of Bahá'í!!! It is no different than christians quoting the bible to prove their god exists... or muslims quoting the koran for their god... ad nauseum!!!

When I speak to a theist and try to engage in a Socratic discussion, I automatically assume they believe their holy writings... it's kind of a "given". What I am trying to glean is why they believe personally! If the only thing they have to fall back on is to say, "because it says so in the <insert holy text here>," that demonstrates to me that they are happy letting others think for them.

Again... If believing the literal word of Bahá'í makes you happy and you're not forcing those unsubstantiated beliefs onto others, then I am happy for you!!! But until you can defend your beliefs with your OWN thoughts *outside* of the works of <insert holy text here>, then we really have very little to discuss.

I'm heading home now but I hope you have a wonderful evening.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Again... RIGHT! And if god wanted me to know him and CHOSE to make it happen, it would happen.... no?!?
That's right, but the fact that God does not choose to make it happen does not mean God does not want you to believe in Him.
How DARE you insinuate I am insincere!!! I have always had an open mind to ANYTHING, regardless of how outlandish the claim, as long as it is supported by Logic, Reason &/or Evidence!!! How dare you claim to know my intentions or "heart" in this matter!!!
I did not say that YOU are not sincere. I said that God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him and God wants to distinguish those people from those who do not sincerely want to believe in Him.
And yes... the tired 'ole "FREE WILL" claim. This is a demonstrable pile of bull****! Hypothetically Satan knew of god and still chose to rebel against him! There is nothing that states that if god proves his existence to me that I would have to ACCEPT him as the "one true savior"!
Baha'is do not believe in a being called Satan and the he rebelled against God. :rolleyes:
We believe that anything regarding Satan is an allegorical story, nothing that really happened.

Do you not see how this is a ridiculous statement?!? If we are "as god created us", then isn't it HIS (her?) fault that we are incapable of realizing gods existence! It circles back to the atheist quote of, "god made me an atheist"!!! It's just silly and beneath you IMHO...
Nope, sorry, I am not buying that bill of goods. Baha'u'llah wrote that everyone is capable of recognizing God and He even explained why.

“I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

<<YAWN>> I know you, and others, are really taken by the words of Bahá'í but for the love of god, you need to stop quoting Bahá'í to prove the existence of Bahá'í!!!
Please show me where I EVER did that. Otherwise, stop leveling the complaint at me.
It is no different than christians quoting the bible to prove their god exists... or muslims quoting the koran for their god... ad nauseum!!!
I am not USING what Baha'u'llah wrote to try to PROVE God exists, I am quoting it to explain certain points I am trying to make.

When I speak to a theist and try to engage in a Socratic discussion, I automatically assume they believe their holy writings... it's kind of a "given". What I am trying to glean is why they believe personally! If the only thing they have to fall back on is to say, "because it says so in the <insert holy text here>," that demonstrates to me that they are happy letting others think for them.
Who ever said I assume you believe on the Baha'i Writings, of course you don't.
Again... If believing the literal word of Bahá'í makes you happy and you're not forcing those unsubstantiated beliefs onto others, then I am happy for you!!! But until you can defend your beliefs with your OWN thoughts *outside* of the works of <insert holy text here>, then we really have very little to discuss.
As I already said, I only quote the Baha'i Writings in order to explain what *I believe.* I also put it in my own words before and/or after I posted the quote.
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
What is evidence to one person is not evidence to another person.

It is evidence to me because it indicates to me that my beliefs are true.
Wow, can you really not see the bias in that assertion?
When the atheists ask for proof, I think they are asking for something else,
I am an atheist, and I have never asked for "proof" as that is a misnomer, proofs are for mathematics. I do however ask that any claim be supported by a demonstration of sufficient objective evidence. When someone claims to believe 'X', but then ask me to tell them what they should present as evidence, then I'm always a little surprised they can hear themselves shifting the burden of proof. I only ever hear this ludicrous request in a religious context.

Can you imagine Einstein or Darwin presenting just a bare assertion for their conclusions, then challenging the global scientific community to present what their expectations are for evidence. It makes me smile every time.

However I will bite, present sufficient objective evidence for your claim. Failing that present the best you have, and if all you have is blind unevidenced assertions and subjective claims for personal experience (see being beamed aboard a spaceship), then I am going to withhold belief. If the core belief is unfalsifiable, then I must remain an agnsotic, but also must withhold belief.

Sorry if this disappoints any theists, but hey, at least I'm not threatening to torture you forever when you die, so win win yeah?
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
From the Bahai study I did with them I liked and agreed with all of what they were saying. However, when they asked e to talk about my beliefs to my sisters and friends that's where I drew the line. They claimed it wasn't proselytizing but had I said no to them they would have been unhappy. They said it's just talking about the community and problems in the community. But to e it just sounds like recruiting new believers. Maybe I am wrong.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
From the Bahai study I did with them I liked and agreed with all of what they were saying. However, when they asked e to talk about my beliefs to my sisters and friends that's where I drew the line. They claimed it wasn't proselytizing but had I said no to them they would have been unhappy. They said it's just talking about the community and problems in the community. But to e it just sounds like recruiting new believers. Maybe I am wrong.

Abdul'baha always offered that it is not about changing Faith Riders, it is all about being the best we can, no matter what faith we have chosen, or not chosen.

A person only becomes a Baha'i, if they choose for themselves to identify as a Baha'i, otherwise God has many Names.

It is all about building strong communities and that is why the offer to invite others would be given. We do not have to accept the offer, as you have done.

Regards Tony
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Wow, can you really not see the bias in that assertion?
Trailblazer said:
What is evidence to one person is not evidence to another person.
It is evidence to me because it indicates to me that my beliefs are true.

That is not biased. It is no more biased than if you said:

What is evidence to one person is not evidence to another person.
What you consider evidence is not evidence to me because it does not indicate to me that your beliefs are true.
I am an atheist, and I have never asked for "proof" as that is a misnomer, proofs are for mathematics. I do however ask that any claim be supported by a demonstration of sufficient objective evidence. When someone claims to believe 'X', but then ask me to tell them what they should present as evidence, then I'm always a little surprised they can hear themselves shifting the burden of proof. I only ever hear this ludicrous request in a religious context.
Here's the thing... I have no burden of proof because I am not trying to prove to you that what I believe is true.
I only even present the evidence as a courtesy, because you asked for it.
I am under no obligation to prove to you or to any atheist that what I believe is true just because I believe it is true.
Can you imagine Einstein or Darwin presenting just a bare assertion for their conclusions, then challenging the global scientific community to present what their expectations are for evidence. It makes me smile every time.
The difference is that I am not asserting anything to be true and I don't care if people believe what I believe.
However I will bite, present sufficient objective evidence for your claim. Failing that present the best you have, and if all you have is blind unevidenced assertions and subjective claims for personal experience (see being beamed aboard a spaceship), then I am going to withhold belief. If the core belief is unfalsifiable, then I must remain an agnsotic, but also must withhold belief.

Sorry if this disappoints any theists, but hey, at least I'm not threatening to torture you forever when you die, so win win yeah?
The evidence was delineated in the post. If you do not understand why that is evidence i can try to explain it but that is all I can do.

It never disappoints me when atheists do not accept my evidence because I know it is not my job to convince anyone that what I believe is true.

Baha'u'llah wrote: “For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”Gleanings, p. 143
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
It is evidence to me because it indicates to me that my beliefs are true.
That is not biased.
Of course it is bias. You are deciding what you accept as evidence on the basis of whether or not it supports your pre-existing position.

It is no more biased than if you said:
What you consider evidence is not evidence to me because it does not indicate to me that your beliefs are true.
But that is not the rational sceptic position.
It is "Your claims do not appear to be true because the evidence does not support them".
We don't get to decide what is and isn't evidence. If it is an independent verifiable observation, repeatable experiment, etc, then it is "evidence", where we like what it shows or not.
And that is the point you seem unable to understand.
Our position is determined by the evidence. The evidence isn't determined by our position. This is basic stuff.

I only even present the evidence as a courtesy, because you asked for it.
You haven't presented any "evidence", you have only presented your beliefs.

I am under no obligation to prove to you or to any atheist that what I believe is true just because I believe it is true.
Of course not. But you claim you have evidence to support your position, which is demonstrably false. Your beliefs are just the - beliefs, and nothing more. Trying to pretend they are based on evidence is where you get yourself into trouble.

The difference is that I am not asserting anything to be true
Ok, so you accept that your beliefs might not be true.

The evidence was delineated in the post. If you do not understand why that is evidence i can try to explain it but that is all I can do.
It isn't evidence. It has been explained why it isn't evidence. The whole concept of evidence has been explained. But you still keep repeating the same refuted nonsense.
'Twas ever thus.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You haven't presented any "evidence", you have only presented your beliefs.

I am more than sure the evidence has been presented. The issue is that the evidence is a choice.

The greatest proof of God is the person of the Messenger, their person and life.

After that, the greatest proof of God is the Message they have given, that becomes the guide for many generations to come.

So, that Message both in the original language and translations is now presented to you at this link.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

It is up to you if you pursue that evidence, as it is the only evidence of God that is available, as from the beginning of time, if you do not live in the age of the Messenger, that is what has been left to all mankind, from God, to learn about God.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No room for questions in heaven. How will you ask ?

The above is a link to where this questioning started, but in order to prevent de-railing the thread, this thread has been created for anyone at all, especially Bahai people or anyone who deems themselves informed about Bahai or even just logical people, to contribute and think about and answer some of these questions.

The questions are as follows (but more may be brought up throughout the thread, and anyone else can also ask questions here about Bahai things or to me or whatever).

I currently do not consider myself a Bahai or follower of the Bab or Baha'u'llah, and will add that I may be somewhat prejudiced or suspicious of practically anything at all coming out of Persia and in relation to the Persian culture, all the way back through the Zoroastrian times even. The thing I dislike Persians for most, is their part in the creation and proliferation of the Hadiths. I don't like Persian people too much, even though some of the women can be good looking to me, but basically don't like anything about them at all overall usually (and also find that a lot of them might be crazy too), so that is to say I'm clearly prejudiced. At the time of the Zoroastrian things, they called the things from India demonic supposedly (naming as Daevas words like Sarva and Indra), and even said odd things about God in various ways like how they attributed to Ahriman the movement of things or change basically, which I attribute to God. Then they went on to make a big fuss about "the family of the Prophet" and mystical qualities and caste systems and blah blah blah, and they were killing lizards like crazy too, just not a fan of these people or their culture or their land or their ideas, even though they get lots of praise. Their influence on the religions, including Judaism, also seems to have been a potentially bad one as well. So, being quite hostile from the get go to this group of people, the idea of a charismatic leader coming along and making any claim, I'm already extremely skeptical, because I don't respect them at all, and already consider them liars from long ago, from the Zoroastrian times, into their Shia split times, finding their Shia traditions to be vile and obnoxious and even blasphemous, and then not being fond also of the Bahai movement either, as a kind of Westernizing suck up type movement, that is supported and funded by groups I don't like (like Zionists) to try to create some kind of trouble for Muslims (who I'm not particularly fond of either).

So, getting that out of the way, this is a great opportunity for people who are knowledgeable of the Bahai religion and history and apologetics to teach everyone who visits this thread all about the religion and put at ease their questions. It is unlikely to move me, except that the patience and courtesy and gentleness that people treat me with here in patiently answering my questions will likely leave me with the opinion that the Bahai are nice people (in fact, I already have this opinion of them, as they are decent and simple folks as far as I've seen and my family has been friends with Bahai people as well).

So to start off:

1. Why should Bab and Baha'u'llah be believed? While we're at it, why should any of these people be believed? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, Abraham, Paul, all the rest, whoever you can think of, why?

2. What significant update to Islam was required when the Muslims seem to still be functioning as Muslims along with the Qur'an.

3. Is the Qur'an to be believed, or is it a lie?

4. What are the changes to the Qur'anic laws by the Bab and to the Bab's laws by Baha'u'llah, and why was such an update necessary between these two in such an extremely small amount of time?

5. How are Bahai not just some type of Muslims?

6. Who are all the Prophets, and what is the point of calling them anything or giving them any significance if they are to be disregarded and are outdated anyway? Like, who cares about them if all that matters really is the Baha'u'llah and what Baha'u'llah says?

7. How do we know these people aren't just like any "Charismatic Cult Leader"?

8. The Mormons or the LDS Church (Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints or whatever) call their organizations leaders Prophets and have a chain of new ones leading back to Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young, and they keep updating and saying that this is the old stuff and here is the new stuff, is there any similarity to that and the Bahai thinking, and why should the Mormons not be believed and followed? They too are a wealthy organized religion with fancy looking buildings and other things.

9. What does it take to be a Bahai, and 9.2. how can one be a Bahai, and 9.3. why should one be a Bahai? 9.4. What is the expected fate of non-Bahai? 9.5. What is expected to happen to the devout Muslims? 9.6. So what then makes this addition necessary or worth the risk?

10. What is the population of the Bahai, their true number, in your estimates (taking out the nominal and not serious Bahai, but actual practitioners).

11. Please give the daily life and routine and rituals and activities of the best and most ideal Bahai person, 11.2. and if you do this, and 11.3. if not, why not? 11.4. Are you failing? 11.5. You aren't afraid or don't care much or what?

12. What is your personal story with Bahai, or if you are a Bahai, how did you come to Bahai or come to believe in it, and 12.2. what do you think of the Qur'an and 12.3. Why aren't you just a follower of the Qur'an?

13. What factor makes one or leads one to be a true Bahai and what is believed to be the factor that makes people deny it or defy it or reject it or be skeptical of it in the genuine views of the Bahai?

14. I view Bahai religion as a degradation or inferior version of Qur'anic Islam, can you clarify or correct this view and show how it might actually be an improvement on the Qur'anic religion or differs from it in such a way in its teachings and practices? I currently find the Muslims to be more devout, more physically clean, more disciplined, etc, so superior in every way to the Bahai which seems like its just a deflated and luke-warm Western pandering version of Islam.

15. What are the Bahai views on the actual detailed description of God (what is God, in detail, down to every detail you can muster up), angels, demons, jinn, whatever, the whole cosmology, the whole belief system in detail, magic, mysticism, symbols, all that you can discuss which give a clear picture of the Bahai worldview and cosmology and locations and history and bestiary and all that.

16. How can one come to respect, admire, or follow Baha'u'llah if one doesn't have much respect for any human beings, or for Baha'u'llah's supposed predecessors, or Muhammed, or Jesus, or Moses, or even God? 16.2. How much belief or practice is required to be a true Bahai or attain God's reward, and what is that Reward anyway and in return for what exactly and why?

17. What is the opposite of a Bahai (sometimes this helps clarify what a Bahai is through the example of what is not a Bahai or what the diametric opposite might be). 17.2. Who, if anyone, are the bad guys or groups, or list all the major bad guys or groups, like even Satan if Satan plays a role at all in the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

18. The statistical numbers of other groups are higher, what does this mean? Has the mission failed, or is it only getting started? It seems doubtful at this rate or with these numbers that Bahai religion will be a major force in 1000 years. 18.2. What accounts for the slaying of Bab and Baha'u'llah if these were slain (as compared to Muhammed, who was not slain, or Moses, who was not slain), and the comparatively small following of the Bahai faith as compared to variations of Islam and Christianity?

19. What are the strongest appeals and apologetics for Bahai religion and why one should follow it and perform each of the required or recommended rituals or tasks?

20. How was your mood and thought process before and after Bahai religion was taken on as your personal religion, and what aspects of it do you personally perceive as those which make the most beneficial difference in your thinking or practices?

21. What are some resources or all the best resources to read all the important or just all of the available and translated Bahai literature online, and what is the value if any of doing so, and what are the bare minimum requirements or recommendations for reading (how much does one need to know, and also if there is any stuff people should avoid reading or which when they read they become really difficult or skeptical).

22. Where is God right now, as I'm writing this, in your beliefs or understandings, and what would God think if I thought poorly of Baha'u'llah or Muhammed or something? Or even God? 22.2.What would thinking poorly of God be exactly in your opinion?

Lots of questions!

23. What is the Bahai organization hierarchy and system and who are the leaders and bosses and why?
24. Have you heard of the Ismaeli leadership structure? Can you compare it to them or the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses?

25. What aspects of your personal history and background do you think really might be responsible for your accepting Bahai religion as your religion (or rejecting it, if a non-Bahai answers).
Did you get the answers to any of these?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Did you get the answers to any of these?

More importantly CG, did you?

There were way to many questions, so that alone shows that the questions were not posted for an answer, but to give an opinion.

Sad times in the Solomon's Islands as the disintegration of the old world order is fed by disunity, predudices and dishonesty.

Regards Tony
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
More importantly CG, did you?

There were way to many questions, so that alone shows that the questions were not posted for an answer, but to give an opinion.

Sad times in the Solomon's Islands as the disintegration of the old world order is fed by disunity, predudices and dishonesty.

Regards Tony
There's sad times here in the U.S. Half the people believe Trump was robbed of the presidency. And the other half think he's the one trying to steal it. Gangs are busting into stores on stealing sprees. Mass shootings and vigilantes go after people they perceive as evil. People at the border wanting to get in, because things are even worth where they came from. Yeah, are the Baha'is ready to take over and fix things?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Of course it is bias. You are deciding what you accept as evidence on the basis of whether or not it supports your pre-existing position.
I had no pre-existing position when I looked at the evidence for the Baha’i Faith because I knew nothing about the Baha’i Faith.
But that is not the rational sceptic position.
It is "Your claims do not appear to be true because the evidence does not support them".
We don't get to decide what is and isn't evidence. If it is an independent verifiable observation, repeatable experiment, etc, then it is "evidence", where we like what it shows or not.
And that is the point you seem unable to understand.
Our position is determined by the evidence. The evidence isn't determined by our position. This is basic stuff.
I do understand that because my position was and still is determined by the evidence.

What you do not understand is that you don't get to decide what is and isn't evidence for the existence of God.
I asked what would be evidence on that thread I started but no atheist was forthcoming as to what would be evidence. That is because they are all clueless as to what would be evidence for God is God existed.
You haven't presented any "evidence", you have only presented your beliefs.
I did present evidence, and the fact that you do not consider it to be evidence does not magically make it into non-evidence.
Of course not. But you claim you have evidence to support your position, which is demonstrably false. Your beliefs are just the - beliefs, and nothing more. Trying to pretend they are based on evidence is where you get yourself into trouble.
I claim I have evidence to support my position, which is demonstrably true.
Ok, so you accept that your beliefs might not be true.
No, I do not accept that they are not true but I am not going to assert they are true since I cannot prove it to anyone else.

“For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.”Gleanings, p. 143
It isn't evidence. It has been explained why it isn't evidence. The whole concept of evidence has been explained. But you still keep repeating the same refuted nonsense.
'Twas ever thus.
You have not refuted anything, you just believe you have.
The ONLY reason you say it is not evidence is because you don’t like the evidence. You wanted God to provide another kind of evidence but an omnipotent God only provides what He chooses to provide, NOT what you want.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
No room for questions in heaven. How will you ask ?

The above is a link to where this questioning started, but in order to prevent de-railing the thread, this thread has been created for anyone at all, especially Bahai people or anyone who deems themselves informed about Bahai or even just logical people, to contribute and think about and answer some of these questions.

The questions are as follows (but more may be brought up throughout the thread, and anyone else can also ask questions here about Bahai things or to me or whatever).

I currently do not consider myself a Bahai or follower of the Bab or Baha'u'llah, and will add that I may be somewhat prejudiced or suspicious of practically anything at all coming out of Persia and in relation to the Persian culture, all the way back through the Zoroastrian times even. The thing I dislike Persians for most, is their part in the creation and proliferation of the Hadiths. I don't like Persian people too much, even though some of the women can be good looking to me, but basically don't like anything about them at all overall usually (and also find that a lot of them might be crazy too), so that is to say I'm clearly prejudiced. At the time of the Zoroastrian things, they called the things from India demonic supposedly (naming as Daevas words like Sarva and Indra), and even said odd things about God in various ways like how they attributed to Ahriman the movement of things or change basically, which I attribute to God. Then they went on to make a big fuss about "the family of the Prophet" and mystical qualities and caste systems and blah blah blah, and they were killing lizards like crazy too, just not a fan of these people or their culture or their land or their ideas, even though they get lots of praise. Their influence on the religions, including Judaism, also seems to have been a potentially bad one as well. So, being quite hostile from the get go to this group of people, the idea of a charismatic leader coming along and making any claim, I'm already extremely skeptical, because I don't respect them at all, and already consider them liars from long ago, from the Zoroastrian times, into their Shia split times, finding their Shia traditions to be vile and obnoxious and even blasphemous, and then not being fond also of the Bahai movement either, as a kind of Westernizing suck up type movement, that is supported and funded by groups I don't like (like Zionists) to try to create some kind of trouble for Muslims (who I'm not particularly fond of either).

So, getting that out of the way, this is a great opportunity for people who are knowledgeable of the Bahai religion and history and apologetics to teach everyone who visits this thread all about the religion and put at ease their questions. It is unlikely to move me, except that the patience and courtesy and gentleness that people treat me with here in patiently answering my questions will likely leave me with the opinion that the Bahai are nice people (in fact, I already have this opinion of them, as they are decent and simple folks as far as I've seen and my family has been friends with Bahai people as well).

So to start off:

1. Why should Bab and Baha'u'llah be believed? While we're at it, why should any of these people be believed? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, Abraham, Paul, all the rest, whoever you can think of, why?

2. What significant update to Islam was required when the Muslims seem to still be functioning as Muslims along with the Qur'an.

3. Is the Qur'an to be believed, or is it a lie?

4. What are the changes to the Qur'anic laws by the Bab and to the Bab's laws by Baha'u'llah, and why was such an update necessary between these two in such an extremely small amount of time?

5. How are Bahai not just some type of Muslims?

6. Who are all the Prophets, and what is the point of calling them anything or giving them any significance if they are to be disregarded and are outdated anyway? Like, who cares about them if all that matters really is the Baha'u'llah and what Baha'u'llah says?

7. How do we know these people aren't just like any "Charismatic Cult Leader"?

8. The Mormons or the LDS Church (Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints or whatever) call their organizations leaders Prophets and have a chain of new ones leading back to Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young, and they keep updating and saying that this is the old stuff and here is the new stuff, is there any similarity to that and the Bahai thinking, and why should the Mormons not be believed and followed? They too are a wealthy organized religion with fancy looking buildings and other things.

9. What does it take to be a Bahai, and 9.2. how can one be a Bahai, and 9.3. why should one be a Bahai? 9.4. What is the expected fate of non-Bahai? 9.5. What is expected to happen to the devout Muslims? 9.6. So what then makes this addition necessary or worth the risk?

10. What is the population of the Bahai, their true number, in your estimates (taking out the nominal and not serious Bahai, but actual practitioners).

11. Please give the daily life and routine and rituals and activities of the best and most ideal Bahai person, 11.2. and if you do this, and 11.3. if not, why not? 11.4. Are you failing? 11.5. You aren't afraid or don't care much or what?

12. What is your personal story with Bahai, or if you are a Bahai, how did you come to Bahai or come to believe in it, and 12.2. what do you think of the Qur'an and 12.3. Why aren't you just a follower of the Qur'an?

13. What factor makes one or leads one to be a true Bahai and what is believed to be the factor that makes people deny it or defy it or reject it or be skeptical of it in the genuine views of the Bahai?

14. I view Bahai religion as a degradation or inferior version of Qur'anic Islam, can you clarify or correct this view and show how it might actually be an improvement on the Qur'anic religion or differs from it in such a way in its teachings and practices? I currently find the Muslims to be more devout, more physically clean, more disciplined, etc, so superior in every way to the Bahai which seems like its just a deflated and luke-warm Western pandering version of Islam.

15. What are the Bahai views on the actual detailed description of God (what is God, in detail, down to every detail you can muster up), angels, demons, jinn, whatever, the whole cosmology, the whole belief system in detail, magic, mysticism, symbols, all that you can discuss which give a clear picture of the Bahai worldview and cosmology and locations and history and bestiary and all that.

16. How can one come to respect, admire, or follow Baha'u'llah if one doesn't have much respect for any human beings, or for Baha'u'llah's supposed predecessors, or Muhammed, or Jesus, or Moses, or even God? 16.2. How much belief or practice is required to be a true Bahai or attain God's reward, and what is that Reward anyway and in return for what exactly and why?

17. What is the opposite of a Bahai (sometimes this helps clarify what a Bahai is through the example of what is not a Bahai or what the diametric opposite might be). 17.2. Who, if anyone, are the bad guys or groups, or list all the major bad guys or groups, like even Satan if Satan plays a role at all in the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

18. The statistical numbers of other groups are higher, what does this mean? Has the mission failed, or is it only getting started? It seems doubtful at this rate or with these numbers that Bahai religion will be a major force in 1000 years. 18.2. What accounts for the slaying of Bab and Baha'u'llah if these were slain (as compared to Muhammed, who was not slain, or Moses, who was not slain), and the comparatively small following of the Bahai faith as compared to variations of Islam and Christianity?

19. What are the strongest appeals and apologetics for Bahai religion and why one should follow it and perform each of the required or recommended rituals or tasks?

20. How was your mood and thought process before and after Bahai religion was taken on as your personal religion, and what aspects of it do you personally perceive as those which make the most beneficial difference in your thinking or practices?

21. What are some resources or all the best resources to read all the important or just all of the available and translated Bahai literature online, and what is the value if any of doing so, and what are the bare minimum requirements or recommendations for reading (how much does one need to know, and also if there is any stuff people should avoid reading or which when they read they become really difficult or skeptical).

22. Where is God right now, as I'm writing this, in your beliefs or understandings, and what would God think if I thought poorly of Baha'u'llah or Muhammed or something? Or even God? 22.2.What would thinking poorly of God be exactly in your opinion?

Lots of questions!

23. What is the Bahai organization hierarchy and system and who are the leaders and bosses and why?
24. Have you heard of the Ismaeli leadership structure? Can you compare it to them or the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses?

25. What aspects of your personal history and background do you think really might be responsible for your accepting Bahai religion as your religion (or rejecting it, if a non-Bahai answers).

1. No one has presented any objective reason.
2. Objective evidence for any deity.
3. See 2
4. Subjective woo woo.
5. You've got me.
6. Subjective biased unevidenced claims, no one has offered anything more.
7. They seem exactly like that.
8. Well Joseph Smith is a convicted conman, this newest cult is not discernible from his in ay objective way.
9. I see no objective risk to disbelieving any religion, perhaps someone can present some?
10. Who cares, number of believers is meaningless.
11. ???? No idea what that means....
12. I'm an atheist as no one has any objective evidence for any deity.
13. Well it's not objective evidence for any deity, else they'd demonstrate it.
14, One unevidenced myth is much like another.
15. One collection of unevidenced claim is pretty much like another.
16. One can't...
17. Unevidenced superstition doesn't have an opposite really, only rational and critical thinking, and beliefs based on sufficient objective evidence.
18. Argumentum ad populum fallacy.
19, Woo woo
20. Pass
21. Harry Potter
22. In the minds of believers, as it always was.
23. Pass.
24. No
25. None, I don't believe anything for which no objective evidence can be demonstrated,
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
1. No one has presented any objective reason.
2. Objective evidence for any deity.
The only objective evidence for the deity is the Messenger of the deity.
Sorry if you do not like that but that is the only evidence the deity ever provided.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
There's sad times here in the U.S. Half the people believe Trump was robbed of the presidency. And the other half think he's the one trying to steal it. Gangs are busting into stores on stealing sprees. Mass shootings and vigilantes go after people they perceive as evil. People at the border wanting to get in, because things are even worth where they came from. Yeah, are the Baha'is ready to take over and fix things?

We are not here to take over CG, things are fixed by people's choice of heart.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Heart and mind. ;)

My thought comes from the first hidden word.

O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

Bahá'u’lláh, The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 1

Then further on I see it Is the heart that is needed to embrace a mind that will connect with God.

O SON OF MAN! Rejoice in the gladness of thine heart, that thou mayest be worthy to meet Me and to mirror forth My beauty.

Bahá'u’lláh, The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 36

So heart and a mind willing to embrace God, would be needed. Heart and Mind is important in embracing the 2nd hidden word.

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

So ponder in our heart but we need mind to weigh the evidences.

Regards Tony
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
I think it's a lovely Universal religion and there are lots to learn from B'ahai. I can't get past being asked to talk to friends and family about the faith though, calling it community problems doesn't make sense. I talk about the community to my family but there's no reason to bring B'ahai into it because my family isn't members of that faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My thought comes from the first hidden word.

O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting.

Bahá'u’lláh, The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 1

Then further on I see it Is the heart that is needed to embrace a mind that will connect with God.

O SON OF MAN! Rejoice in the gladness of thine heart, that thou mayest be worthy to meet Me and to mirror forth My beauty.

Bahá'u’lláh, The Hidden Words, Arabic no. 36

So heart and a mind willing to embrace God, would be needed. Heart and Mind is important in embracing the 2nd hidden word.

O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

So ponder in our heart but we need mind to weigh the evidences.

Regards Tony
Yes indeed, the heart is the home in which God dwells.

59: O SON OF BEING! Thy heart is My home; sanctify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation.The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 17

“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue. Thus hath it been ordained by the Fingers of Bahá, upon the Tablet of God’s irrevocable decree, by the behest of Him Who is the Supreme Ordainer, the All-Knowing.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 279

“Meditate on what the poet hath written: “Wonder not, if my Best-Beloved be closer to me than mine own self; wonder at this, that I, despite such nearness, should still be so far from Him.”… Considering what God hath revealed, that “We are closer to man than his life-vein,” the poet hath, in allusion to this verse, stated that, though the revelation of my Best-Beloved hath so permeated my being that He is closer to me than my life-vein, yet, notwithstanding my certitude of its reality and my recognition of my station, I am still so far removed from Him. By this he meaneth that his heart, which is the seat of the All-Merciful and the throne wherein abideth the splendor of His revelation, is forgetful of its Creator, hath strayed from His path, hath shut out itself from His glory, and is stained with the defilement of earthly desires." Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 185
 
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