Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

[Trailblazer]

So why do bibles say End of the World?

They don't say that. They say end of an age

Matthew 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

Matthew 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Source: 25 Bible verses about End Of The World

And that is exactly what happened in 1844. One age ended and a new age was ushered in by the Bab.

What hath God Wrought? 24 May 1844

 

[Trailblazer]

You're wrong there. Here's a list of religion that started in the last century. List of religious movements that began in the United States - Wikipedia

Religious movements based upon what? They are not based upon a new Revelation from God so they do not qualify as a religion according to Baha'u'llah.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

These are not religions:

• Church of Satan (LaVeyan Satanism), 1966
• Universal Eclectic Wicca, 1969
• Georgian Wicca, 1970
• Church of the SubGenius, 1970s

 

[Starlight]

Question to Baha'i on this forum:

Do you believe Baha'u'llah is Jesus himself? Or do believe Baha'u'llah just is Jesus symbolically?

Was the person who was Jesus in Nazareth two thousands years ago in the spirit world when Baha'u'llah was on earth?

 

[Trailblazer]

Question to Baha'i on this forum:

Do you believe Baha'u'llah is Jesus himself? Or do believe Baha'u'llah just is Jesus symbolically?

Was the person who was Jesus in Nazareth two thousands years ago in the spirit world when Baha'u'llah was on earth?

Baha'is believe that Baha'u'lah was the return of the Christ Spirit (and the return of the Holy Spirit.)
Yes, we believe that Jesus was in the spirit world when Baha'u'llah was on earth.

I just posted the explanation to a Christian on another thread today, based upon what I had posted to another Christian a few days ago, and here was my post: This might be a little more than you asked so do not hesitate to ask if you do not understand. This is an extensive subject.
******************************************************************

Jesus was the Son of man, and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Son of man who brought the Holy Spirit. Baha'u'llah was also the return of Christ, because He was the Comforter that Jesus promised to send from the Father. I explained that to Brian2 a few days ago.

Brian2 said:If Jesus was in heaven when Baha'u'llah was on earth then Jesus spirit was in heaven then.

Trailblazer said: There is the soul and the spirit and the Holy Spirit.

The words soul and spirit mean the same thing because the soul is the human spirit; but the Holy Spirit is different, it is the Bounty of God.

So the soul (spirit) of Jesus ascended to heaven (as per Acts 1:9) and it has remained in heaven ever since.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit to humanity.

When Jesus ascended to heaven, He sent another Comforter, as He had promised to do.

Jesus sent the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit to humanity, again.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Baha'u'llah was the Comforter who brought the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to send from the Father, since Jesus was with the Father in heaven. That is why we have this verse:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
*********************************
There is no basis to believe that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of man who would return to earth in the Son of man verses, and there is also no basis for believing that the same man Jesus would ever return to earth, as I explained in this thread I started a while ago:

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

But not for 1000 years will there be any?

And actually, as I showed in the bunch of posts after this: Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Baha'u'llah didn't wait his turn and came in 2000 years too early. So it would seem perfectly reasonable if the next Baha'i "manifestation of God" come much earlier, if not tomorrow or yesterday already!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And actually, as I showed in the bunch of posts after this: Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Baha'u'llah didn't wait his turn and came in 2000 years too early. So it would seem perfectly reasonable if the next Baha'i "manifestation of God" come much earlier, if not tomorrow or yesterday already!

What is contained in the Persian Bayan is writings about the dawn of the New World Order, which we are all striving daily to build. Shoghi Effendi writes:

".... in the third Vahid of this Book there occurs a passage which, alike in its explicit reference to the name of the Promised One, and in its anticipation of the Order which, in a later age, was to be identified with His Revelation, deserves to rank as one of the most significant statements recorded in any of the Bab’s writings. ‘Well is it with him,’ is His prophetic announcement, ‘who fixeth his gaze upon the Order of Baha’u’llah, and rendereth thanks unto his Lord. For He will assuredly be made manifest. God hath indeed irrevocably ordained it in the Bayan.’ It is with that self-same Order that the Founder of the promised Revelation, twenty years later—incorporating that same term in His Kitab-i-Aqdas—identified the System envisaged in that Book, affirming that ‘this most great Order’ had deranged the world’s equilibrium, and revolutionized mankind’s ordered life."

Regards Tony

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

What is ontained in the Persian Bayan is writings about the dawn of the New World Order, which we are all striving daily to build. Shoghi Effendi writes:

".... in the third Vahid of this Book there occurs a passage which, alike in its explicit reference to the name of the Promised One, and in its anticipation of the Order which, in a later age, was to be identified with His Revelation, deserves to rank as one of the most significant statements recorded in any of the Bab’s writings. ‘Well is it with him,’ is His prophetic announcement, ‘who fixeth his gaze upon the Order of Baha’u’llah, and rendereth thanks unto his Lord. For He will assuredly be made manifest. God hath indeed irrevocably ordained it in the Bayan.’ It is with that self-same Order that the Founder of the promised Revelation, twenty years later—incorporating that same term in His Kitab-i-Aqdas—identified the System envisaged in that Book, affirming that ‘this most great Order’ had deranged the world’s equilibrium, and revolutionized mankind’s ordered life."

Regards Tony

Of course, the promise one abrogates The Bayan 15 years after The Bab died. No logic whatsoever.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

And even if it is true, what does that prove about religion?

What fallible humans do does not prove anything about the religion itself.

As I've shown so many religions are created by Man, so fallible humans prove everything about religion. They create it, they are responsible.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You beat me to the punch on that rating... See how I edited it to cover all the religions.

Amanaki can make up quotes all day long to fit his message.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Of course, the promise one abrogates The Bayan 15 years after The Bab died. No logic whatsoever.

The point and logic is that both the Persian and Arabic Bayan was a tribute to Baha'u'llah and the Persian Bayan was left unfinished for the 'One Whom God Would Make Manifest' to complete.

As such, that in itself shows that the 2 Messengers are tied together and the Kitab-i-aqdas was the completion of the Bayan.

As this is important, this is a link to an explanation on Him who God would make Manifest.

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volume 1, Chapter 18

An extract.

Spoiler

"...
In several passages in the Bayán and other Writings, the Báb mentioned Bahá'u'lláh by name and alluded to Him as 'Him Whom God shall make manifest'. All these references clearly indicate Bahá'u'lláh as the Promised One of the Bayán and the object of the adoration of the Báb. A striking example is to be found in the Persian Bayán where, in the course of a reference to 'Him Whom God shall make manifest', the Báb anticipated the establishment of a new Order by Bahá'u'lláh. These are His words:

Well is it with him who fixeth his gaze upon the Order of Bahá'u'lláh and rendereth thanks unto his Lord! For He will assuredly be made manifest. God hath indeed irrevocably ordained it in the Bayán.

Many were the tributes which the Báb paid in His Writings to the inconceivable greatness of the Revelation of 'Him Whom God shall make manifest' and numerous were the expressions of His loyalty and self-effacement towards its Author. Having recognized Him to be the Source of His inspiration, the Revealer of His Revelation, and the Object of His adoration, the Báb often craved to lay down His life as a sacrifice in the path of 'Him Whom God shall make manifest'. In the Qayyúmu'l-Asmá',* described by Bahá'u'lláh as the 'first, the greatest and mightiest' 16 of the books revealed by the Báb, we find the following references to Bahá'u'lláh--'Him Whom God shall make manifest':

Out of utter nothingness, O great and omnipotent Master, Thou hast, through the celestial potency of Thy might, brought me forth and raised me up to proclaim this Revelation. I have made none other but Thee my trust; I have clung to no will but Thy will...O Thou Remnant of God! I have sacrificed myself wholly for Thee; I have accepted curses for Thy sake, and have yearned for naught but martyrdom in the path of Thy love. Sufficient witness unto me is God, the Exalted, the Protector, the Ancient of Days...
And when the appointed hour hath struck, do Thou, by the leave of God, the All-Wise, reveal from the heights of the Most Lofty and Mystic Mount a faint, an infinitesimal glimmer of Thy impenetrable Mystery, that they who have recognized the radiance of the Sinaic Splendour may faint away and die as they catch a lightening glimpse of the fierce and crimson Light that envelops Thy Revelation.

That is why Baha'u'llah is the One whom God did make manifest.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

That is why Baha'u'llah is the One whom God did make manifest.

Regards Tony

Then there's this:

SeekerOnThePath said: Yes there is, he says many times that the dispensation will last between 1511 and 2001 years. It doesn't get clearer than that.

Truthseeker9 said: How do you explain this passage by the Bab to the Sherif of Mecca:

Shouldst thou return unto Us while revelation still continueth through Us, We shall transform thy fire into light. Truly We are powerful over all things. But if thou failest in this task, thou shalt find no way open to thee other than to embrace the Cause of God and to implore that the matter of thine allegiance be brought to the attention of Him Whom God shall make manifest, that He may graciously enable thee to prosper and cause thy fire to be transformed into light.

The Báb, "Selections from the Writings of the Báb", 1.7.3

This clearly indicates that the Sherif of Mecca will still be alive when Him Whom God shall make manifest comes.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then there's this:

SeekerOnThePath said: Yes there is, he says many times that the dispensation will last between 1511 and 2001 years. It doesn't get clearer than that.

Truthseeker9 said: How do you explain this passage by the Bab to the Sherif of Mecca:

Shouldst thou return unto Us while revelation still continueth through Us, We shall transform thy fire into light. Truly We are powerful over all things. But if thou failest in this task, thou shalt find no way open to thee other than to embrace the Cause of God and to implore that the matter of thine allegiance be brought to the attention of Him Whom God shall make manifest, that He may graciously enable thee to prosper and cause thy fire to be transformed into light.

The Báb, "Selections from the Writings of the Báb", 1.7.3

This clearly indicates that the Sherif of Mecca will still be alive when Him Whom God shall make manifest comes.

Also the Jináb-i Bábu'l-Báb ("Gate of the Gate"), the first Letters of the Living tells of his recognition of Baha'u'llah. Quaddas was with the Bab when Mullah Husayn's report came in about Baha'u'llah.

It is all recorded history and why people do not dispute this, that Baha'u'llah is not the one foretold by the Bab, is that it is just plain and simply, a vain dispute.

Regards Tony

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Then there's this:

SeekerOnThePath said: Yes there is, he says many times that the dispensation will last between 1511 and 2001 years. It doesn't get clearer than that.

Truthseeker9 said: How do you explain this passage by the Bab to the Sherif of Mecca:

Shouldst thou return unto Us while revelation still continueth through Us, We shall transform thy fire into light. Truly We are powerful over all things. But if thou failest in this task, thou shalt find no way open to thee other than to embrace the Cause of God and to implore that the matter of thine allegiance be brought to the attention of Him Whom God shall make manifest, that He may graciously enable thee to prosper and cause thy fire to be transformed into light.

The Báb, "Selections from the Writings of the Báb", 1.7.3

This clearly indicates that the Sherif of Mecca will still be alive when Him Whom God shall make manifest comes.

And I already responded to that weeks ago: Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@The Artis Magistra

Also another:

Persian Bayan, Vahid 3 Gate 15:

"It is the same if all the believers in the Bayan believe in Him Whom God shall make manifest; not a single one among them will remain in the fire, and the order of non-believer will not be thrust upon any one among them. Await the manifestation so that that space of a breath will not pass between the moment of the manifestation and that in which all those who believe in the Bayan will give their faith, for it is not worthy that He be awaited during Mustaghas (that is to say 2001 years). If they take step of the robe of circumspection, this circumspection was and is in the fire. Even if our hope in God, very good and very benevolent may be this that at the moment of His
manifestation, by His elevated orders in His writings He awakens all His slaves from their sleep and does not permit that, following the formal order of His Bayan which is “from Qias to Mustaghas” they will remain in the fire; for, finally, nobody other than God knows the date of the
manifestation. When it takes place, all must affirm the Point of Truth and thank God, even though
we hope in God that one will not have to wait until Mustaghas and that before this date the word of God will arise."

I dont think when the Bab says, during Mustaghas, He means, to calculate that in Abjad. It only may appear so. The word Mustaghas must be translated here, rather than calculated numerically. Qias and Mustaghas have another interpretations.

Also, the Bab wanted to mislead the enemies, so, they don't know Bahaullah was among them, until the appointed time comes, when Bahaullah declares. Thus He made it appear as if He shall make manifest long time later.

The dispensation of the Bab and Bahaullah are One. This was already said in the Quran:

"One day, the disturbing trumpet-blast shall disturb it and the second blast follows it.....
Verily, it will be but a single blast" 79:6-13

In Quran, two trumpet blasts, represent the two revelations which will follow each other, but they are so close to each other, and so united in purpose that is counted as one single blast. In Bahai view, The Bab and Bahaullah, are fulfillment of these two trumpet calls.
In Hadithes, the Imams have said, the trumpet is the Qaim. See Biharulanwar volume 51-53.

In Hadithes, two person must appear after one another. One is the 12th Imam, who rules for 7 years, followed by return of Christ, who rules for forty years. But their missions are united.

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake.

Ah! So "fulfilled prophecies" is your best piece of evidence then? I know you asked for me to read through all the proofs then choose which one was most compelling to me but to be quite honest, I have neither the time nor the interest in doing that. EVERY religion has numerous claims and pieces of "evidence" and as demonstrated, with 3 youngish children and a very active life, I don't have time to devote as much time as I would like to the study of every religion out there.

As I am sure you are aware, many christians have pointed to various prophecies in the bible as proof that jesus was the true messiah and all that I am aware aware of / researched, has been soundly debunked time and again. So again I ask respectfully... what is the BEST prophecy in your eyes that proves your version of religion. Lets start with the BEST piece of "evidence" and wok backwards from there.

Thanks

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah! So "fulfilled prophecies" is your best piece of evidence then?

I never said that fulfilled prophecies was the best piece of evidence.

I know you asked for me to read through all the proofs then choose which one was most compelling to me but to be quite honest, I have neither the time nor the interest in doing that. EVERY religion has numerous claims and pieces of "evidence" and as demonstrated, with 3 youngish children and a very active life, I don't have time to devote as much time as I would like to the study of every religion out there.

That is fine by me. It was just an offer. There is nothing in it for me as I already know the truth.

I am not at all surprised that it ended up this way as I have yet to meet an atheist who was really serious about knowing the truth about God, so as to make it a priority, but you are young enough that you can come back to it later when you don't have other pressing responsibilities.

I never suggested studying every religion out there as I see no reason to study ancient religions that no longer have what humanity needs in this age. What an utter waste of time. I am still waiting to run into an atheist who realizes how illogical that is to look at old religions. That would be like shopping for an antique car that barely runs and hoping it will take you across the country.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.

We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

“No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

There is nothing in it for me as I already know the truth.

Hypothetically... But then again so do all the other umpteen thousand religions that are just as valid as your based on your "evidence", namely unsubstantiated claims and "faith"

but you are young enough

Wow. Thank you! Being 52 I rarely feel "young" these days. Granted I'm forced to grow older but I refuse to grow up ;-)

I see no reason to study ancient religions that no longer have what humanity needs in this age. What an utter waste of time.

Waste of time?!? Agree 100%! And see no reason as to why your "religion" is any different. Your quoted passages are nice... but so are passages from MANY works of fiction and non-fiction alike.

If you have indeed provided your "best evidence" for your god / beliefs, then I guess we are done as I find them exceedingly disappointing. Take care and stay safe! -Arthur

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Wow. Thank you! Being 52 I rarely feel "young" these days. Granted I'm forced to grow older but I refuse to grow up ;-)

52 is young, to some.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Hypothetically... But then again so do all the other umpteen thousand religions that are just as valid as your based on your "evidence", namely unsubstantiated claims and "faith"

Sorry to say that they are not just as valid as my religion, for various reasons.

Wow. Thank you! Being 52 I rarely feel "young" these days. Granted I'm forced to grow older but I refuse to grow up ;-)

You are a spring chicken and someday you will think back and realize that.

Waste of time?!? Agree 100%! And see no reason as to why your "religion" is any different. Your quoted passages are nice... but so are passages from MANY works of fiction and non-fiction alike.

Duh, but of course you do not SEE why my religion is any different, you don't know anything about it.
I thought atheists were supposed to be so logical.

If you have indeed provided your "best evidence" for your god / beliefs, then I guess we are done as I find them exceedingly disappointing. Take care and stay safe! -Arthur

Okay, but I just posted you two posts on that other thread so maybe you should at least read them.

I have been asking atheists for seven years what they would consider evidence for God's existence but thus far I have never received any realistic answers, but maybe you have something I have not heard before?

 

[Arthur P. Dent]

You are a spring chicken and someday you will think back and realize that.

Why thank you and do recognize that age is definitely relative and FWIW, I do feel young for my age. As I tell my clients, "It's not the age, it's the mileage!"

I thought atheists were supposed to be so logical.

I like to think "we" are. But we also recognize the value of time as for us, this is our only shot at existence and don't wish to waste time studying every religion under the sun. Hence we often ask for the theists ***strongest*** piece of evidence and if we find that lacking, why bother investigating the lesser claims? I have reviewed the material you have provided, and find it lacking. So be it. No skin of my nose and as long as you are not trying to force your beliefs onto others and you are happy, then I am sincerely happy for you.

I have been asking atheists for seven years what they would consider evidence for God's existence but thus far I have never received any realistic answers, but maybe you have something I have not heard before?

THIS is a great question and one that Matt Dillahunty answered *perfectly* IMHO. Now of course the first order of business would to determine what you mean by god exactly... i.e. if a theists states "god is just the sum total of energy in the universe," then hallelujah and pass the wafers... I'm a theist! However going on the assumption that "god" is at least an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent entity, as most theists claim, then I can honestly say I have no idea what it would take to convince me. BBBUUUTTT......

An omniscient god WOULD know what it would take to convince me, an omniscient god COULD make that happen and an omnibenevolent god would want me to know to avoid the eternal hellfire of the afterlife (or what ever version of "hell" the theists believes in). I can thus at least conclude that THAT god either does not exist or lacks one of those 3 attributes.

As tom \\"I have never received any realistic answers"\\, if god "transcends" time and space, then why does the evidence have to be "realistic"? Isn't god beyond reality?!?

Please tell me how YOU define god and perhaps I will be better able to answer your question on a more personal basis.