Those are song lyrics that are a reference to Milton's Paradise Lost, and they don't have anything to do with being nice to people who spew crass bigotry.
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Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
- Thread starter DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan
- Start date
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
As far as I know, ex-Baha'is are free to throw their name in the hat.
WOW!!!
They have YOUR permission, they must all feel THRILLED!
Ancient Soul
The Spiritual Universe
Usually when people leave a religion it's because the RELIGION is on shaky ground and they see it, then split.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is do not believe the Baha'i Faith is *better.* Rather, we believe it is more *current* than the older religions and thus it has the answers to the problems humanity is facing in the current age, and going forward, until another Messenger of God is sent..
In my opinion, the only reason to choose the Baha'i Faith would be if Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, what Baha'is usually refer to as a Manifestation of God. If He was He brought the latest message from God and if He wasn't he a false prophet, either delusional or a con-man.
So, out of all the questions people have the only real question that matters is whether Baha'u'llah was a Manifestation of God or not. Everything hinges on the answer to that one question, everything.
Fortunately there is no detailed description of God. God is simply the unknowable 'Source' of all of existence, and eternally One and indivisible. We only know the attributes of God, such as Love, Justice, and Compassion through progressive evolving eternal Revelation and Creation. The problem exists for the different ancient religions is they fail to present a vision of a God that has a universal relationship with all humanity and potentially all possible planets of the universe with intelligent life. The only way that universal God could exist is that the nature of God is beyond the human cultural perspective of any one religion in one place and time in human existence, or division there of.
The Baha'i cosmology is roughly equivalent to the cosmology of science, but in the theistic sense it is eternal in Creation and Revelation with with many stars with planets with life and possibly infinite universes.
SeekerOnThePath
On a mountain between Nietzsche and Islam
I'd strongly advise not associating Baha'u'llah with The Bab. Baha'u'llah screwed over his own brother (Subh-i-Azal - the appointed successor) as the opportunist he was, when he was not the appointed successor that The Bab himself directly appointed in person and in writing, and was not "he whom God shall make manifest" either, who is still over approx 1000 years away as of this year according to the writings of The Bab.
Baha'u'llah just decided that 25 years later "he whom God shall make manifest" would come not even 1% of the prophesied time of the Babi/Bayani dispensation. It's hilarious though.
The Bab though, as far as who he was and what he taught. He was an occultist, and a marvelous one at that.
If one accepts the Shi'i view, then The Bab is clearly an authentic form of restorationist (at the very least) who through his teachings united the Twelver stream back with the Ismaili one (Twelve Imams + the hyper-eSoteric occult philosophy innate in the Shi'i worldview) - so circa Imam Jafar al-Sadiq era restoration.
From the point of view of someone of that disposition with Shi'i leanings, I can strongly respect and love the Bab on those terms.
On revelatory terms, it's still very contentious. Muhammad is the last of the Prophets (Surah 33:40, plus endless Hadith), it doesn't get much clearer than that. Yet such an idea does have it's own internal contradiction which could be logically exploited for such defense.
Either way, God, according to the Qur'an, does not leave humanity at any time without an Imam, or guide, or Khalif (various Quranic passages and Hadith mention it), so there is always the question mark there. In the Shi'i view, obviously it either means the Mahdi in Ghayba or the Aga Khan for Nizaris.
It's worth noting though, that since Baha'i's falsify the belief in the Twelve Imams, the Mahdi in particular, and take the Sunni view instead, they deny the epistemology of their own truth claims which comes out of the Shi'i camp not the Sunni one.
Anyway, the Bab's teachings are very profound, unfortunately not enough has been translated yet and Baha'i's don't want to risk translating any of his writings to english (it's the last thing on their list).
This site is fantastic though, you may enjoy it: Haykal - Writings of the Bāb | Hurqalya Publications: Center for Shaykhī and Bābī-Bahā’ī Studies
The book "The Messiah of Shiraz" by Dennis MacEoin has a lot of fantastic insights as well, although not detailed enough in parts.
Something that makes no sense, in the Baha'i view. The Babi/Bayani view differs though, particularly in the realm of esotericism.
What remains though is that in terms of scripture itself, The Qur'an is still as it was in Prophet Muhammad's time, there is no comparison to the situation of the Bible predating Islam. Same thing goes for Islam's universally normative practices, still done as it was back in the Prophet's time (5 pillars et al).
Also one thing I'll call to mind is the nature of scripture as well. The Qur'an, regardless of one's opinions about it, sees itself as and speaks as God's direct word the whole way though (sparing the metaphysical semantics alluded to with the preserved tablet, Umm al-Kitab etc). The Qur'an is the only scripture like this, and has also been consistently memorized since the Prophet himself received the revelation.
In some of the Bab's writings it goes in and out of perspectives, sometimes it is the Bab himself speaking, other times the Imam Mahdi, other times it is God. Depends on the sacred text of his and the nature of that text. Whatever work of the Bab you read though, it's always very symbolically dense and takes lots of rereading to grasp all of what it's saying, because it's again: esoteric. Everything he does with symbol, Tawil, the arabic letters, etc, is all incredibly inventive and very true to the science of the letters ('ilm al-Huruf) taught by the Ahl al-Bayt.
But as for Baha'u'llah, aside from Quranic allusions, it is rather usually him alone being the speaker (exception of certain poems). Baha'u'llah's writing style and his basic nature as a "holy figure" (which I contest of course) reminds me heavily of the "apostle" Paul of the New Testament. He is a very Paulian figure, and curiously a usurper like Paul was (Paul usurped James the Just - aka Jesus's brother).
He writes epistle-style works, even for his non-letters.
There aren't many of his works that aren't this.
His writings aren't very symbolically deep, most of it superficially borrows aspects from the Babi/Bayani oeuvre, with bits of basic Islamic and Christian symbol, in other areas he borrows Sufi flourishes (while also denying mysticism).
Later Baha'i authorities, namely Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi, are the ones who really create "the Baha'i faith" our of the blueprints of his writings and try to de-Islamicize his work, and that of The Bab (who is of course treated as only a footnote in Bahaism).
From a legalistic standpoint, there isn't much to say there. The Bab is a more complex figure regarding his idea of abrogation. One thing is certain though, Baha'u'llah returns to medieval punishment, whereas The Bab doesn't. It's quite a strange thing. Baha'u'llah's laws, except for doctrinal stuff, are not implemented yet by Baha'i and no wonder why.
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A reply to this would be outside the scope of this OP. Needless to say the Bab's Message speaks of the One whom God will make Manifest, who is obviously none other than Baha'u'llah. The history of the Faith covers this in great detail and leaves no doubt about this issue.
Subh-i-Azal was a very weak soul who was constantly in hiding to protect his own safety and was strategically chosen to fulfill a role that diverted attention away from Baha'u'llah for an appointed time.
"...SAY, He Whom God shall make manifest will surely redeem the rights of those who truly believe in God and in His signs, for they are the ones who merit reward from His presence. Say, it is far from the glory of Him Whom God shall make manifest that anyone should in this wise make mention of His name, if ye ponder the Cause of God in your hearts. Say, He shall vindicate the Cause through the potency of His command and shall bring to naught all perversion of truth by virtue of His behest. Verily God is potent over all things.
If ye wish to distinguish truth from error, consider those who believe in Him Whom God shall make manifest and those who disbelieve Him at the time of His appearance. The former represent the essence of truth, as attested in the Book of God, while the latter the essence of error, as attested in that same Book. Fear ye God that ye may not identify yourselves with aught but the truth, inasmuch as ye have been exalted in the Bayán for being recognized as the bearers of the name of Him Who is the eternal Truth.
It is obvious that the followers of Baha'u'llah have fulfilled that prophecy and those that went with Subh-i-Azal are no longer.
Regards Tony
They both declared they were Messengers from God and came to fulfill all the promise of past scriptures. They like Christ and Muhammad before them, gave all their life to deliver those Messages as per God's Will. They have offered, as promised, the age of Peace.
As such, why would we choose not to believe?
I see it is the same reason as stated above, all of God's chosen Messengers came to give God's Message to us. Their early disciples likewise were commissioned to spread that Message. Thus the question is for us, why do we choose not to believe in those messages?
Regards Tony
Persia in the 1800's in no way reflected the Message given by Muhammad. It is too big a topic to say much more in this OP. What we can consider is that it is God that chooses the people that most need the Message. So what we must ask ourselves, is why God chose Persia and America to first receive the Messages given by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
There is a lot written on this. Takes a lifetime of study to open the door to what was happening in those times, in those places.
Regards Tony
It is to be believed. Like the Bible, one can not always read it in a purely material way. The Quran contains many a spiritual truth, that in turn can unlock many material passages.
Regards Tony
A change that takes place that always shakes the foundation of religion is the direction of prayer. The Quibla was changed from Mecca and now is in Haifa, just outside Akka.
Here is a couple of quotes a to why;
"Even as He hath revealed: ‘Do men think when they say “We believe” they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?’" Bahá’u’lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9
"..The Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, his servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns... Bahá’u’lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9
Regards Tony
I see the realization of the Oneness of Humanity and One God lead us to Baha'u'llah.
I see all else that does not embrace this oneness, will make us skeptical or give us causes to reject what Baha'u'llah offered.
Regards Tony
Baha'u'llah left a covenant which appointed His son Abdul'baha and in turn the Guardian Shoghi Effendi and then the Universal House of Justice, a current body of 9 elected men. The administration of the Baha'i Faith is via 9 elected representatives at local and national level yearly. The national then elect the Universal House of Justice every 5 years.
The Baha'i have no clergy, there are no bosses. There is the elected representatives and the appointed learned. The learned are advisory capacity only.
It is a model system that I see the world may adopt in the future.
Regards Tony
No, I believe you.
Like I said on another thread, my idea of heaven is a place where cats live forever and my idea of hell is when cats die...... and I hope God heard that because I am dead serious.
Oh, and by the way, I only have nine cats now, unless you count the one outdoor kitty, but I have a lot more raccoons than cats, say like 30+ ... I only wish I had a camera so I could take a picture of my monster deck in the back where they all come together to eat... I doubt anyone would believe me unless they saw a picture.
We no longer have a deck, we have a rack deck, and we no longer have a back yard, we have a rack yard, and we no longer have a lake view because the racks and squirrels own the trees that are blocking our view.
I hope monster deck was not a typo! I am actually totally amazed about these raccoons, I love raccoons, and I'd love to see them coming along and eating. They have little hands and can totally communicate with each other and you (me), whenever I see raccoons its a treat! I don't think I've ever seen as many as you are mentioning all at once. I've seen up to maybe 6 together in a family or possibly up to 9 (fantasy of mine? I don't know, it was in Vancouver), but never 30 all at once! That would be awesome to see, and a little glimpse of heaven (or hell), but I believe the same as you, that its only right that paradise is full of all the animals living forever in peace along with us, and my worst experiences in life are basically witnessing or going through the deaths of my (animal) friends.
That is awesome! I knew a little about that, and had this Effendi name playing in my head just the other day for no apparent reason, and I didn't know about the 9. Are the elections performed by the Bahai members by mail in ballots or something? Does one have an official Bahai membership that they have to pay for or something in order to vote? This is fascinating stuff! I love learning about such things and how they work! Out of the 9, do the 9 each do the same thing or do they all do different things, like one takes care of money, one takes care of media, etc?
The oneness thing though seemed to be something stated by the prior Muslim people and their Qur'an thing, then the Free-Masons, Napoleon seemed to say it even, and so the idea of a Universal One Religion seems to have been present already, most particularly in the Qur'an and Islam, where it says something like "There is Only One Religion" and that the same message was brought to mankind repeatedly throughout history and stuff. The Muslims also seem to have been one of the most successful in actually making it appear that way with their huge amounts of varying nations and people who all started following this One Religion. It seems as though that Baha'u'llah was mentioning these ideas but as of yet has not really had as much success based on the population of Bahai people with the literature or spread of the ideas or following as compared to Islam still (which seems to say the same thing basically).
Speaking of which, all the Muslims turn their face to the One Alien Cube for their One Alien God of the One Alien Religion, do the Bahai have any particular place they turn their face to when they perform worship similar to the Muslim style of worship?
This was extremely enlightening and informative, and I hope that you continue to visit this thread to show evidence or correct things that might be stated here which you feel might not be accurate or representing the truth precisely.
I was always more interested in and attracted to the Bab and the character of the Bab as compared to Baha'u'llah and Baha'u'llah's writing. I also was always attracted to the Yellow Turban Rebellion guys from China, because they were supposedly wizards also, and I have a thing for wacko wizard types (a thing for myself maybe).
Are there currently bubbling Babi boys and girls who follow the Bab but reject Baha'u'llah existing to this day? I am much more ready to say that if the Bab was a Persian magician occultist Muslim that I'm ok with his claims (and possible killing sprees) while still having heavy doubts or concerns about the succession of Baha'u'llah as of yet. What would really take me over the edge or help a ton would be seeing or hearing something from the writings of Baha'u'llah which is really special seeming to me, because as far as I've ever read or seen, its like someone spilled a perfume bottle on a tafsir of the Qur'an or something and its so heavily flowery smelling that is gives a gag reflex.
Another bunch of people's writing I don't like very much are those people who talk to aliens or saints or something and relay back their words and are like "My dears, today my beloved, the alien reptiles have started their invasion of this deep blue world of love by manifesting their black and green hate rays into the hearts of their love-resistant cloned agents everywhere"
Maybe not the best imitation, but when they say "my beloved" or things like that, it really makes me cringe.
I totally have no doubt at all that the Baha'u'llah left as his legitimate heir his son and his own family. I too think that in the future, things may be run by (artificially) elected committees rather than single authoritative individual leadership.
This may even occur before the time when Prophet ZX-60 finally brings back some of our long lost humanity.
The Muslims seem to believe that some of the people used to turn their faces towards Jerusalem when they worshipped, is Haifa nearby? The Muslims were then supposedly asked to differentiate themselves from these by turning towards the local Cube. So it is interesting that another group turned back to a place relatively close to Jerusalem (I'm guessing). I wonder what its all about!
Was there something in Haifa already built and did Baha'u'llah decide this exact location and to turn towards that exact location or was it decided after he was dead and his heir or someone in charge decided it afterwards?
I doubt that Bahai people worship towards graves or call upon the help of dead people like some do of Saints, but are there any practices like that? Its possible that if a corpse had been venerated as some used to do (and still do), that people might have turned towards the grave site of some significant figure or Baha'u'llah to direct their prayers.
Speaking of which, what is currently believed among the Bahai to the status of Baha'u'llah? Like, Christians tend to believe (variously, since its confusing a bit because Jesus is also supposed to be God), that Jesus is alive and sitting in his Jesus form next to God on some cosmic second throne or something.
Muslims seem to have made obnoxious stories about Muhammed unraveling his Persian turban into hell and playing a big role in afterlife affairs and proceedings, and people even say Joseph Smith is sitting in Judgment of people. King Minos also played a role or something in the Underworld, as does Pharoah (I think its Khufu) as a leader in Hell.
Is there stuff like that or beliefs about Baha'u'llah watching over people somehow or existing right now, or is he just nothing right now and has not yet been brought back to life by the resurrection? Is there the resurrection and Judgment Day and all that?
Do people say that Baha'u'llah will sit on a Judgment seat like Joseph Smith or unravel his turban like they say of Muhammed (not in the Qur'an, but in stories they make about Muhammed)?