Questions for Muslims

[Raahim]

Raahim,

I agree that there are many people who don't know anything about Islam who criticize Muslims without trying to see the whole picture. And of course I agree that there are many Muslims fighting the very few terrorists there are in the world.

You bring up a comparison with physics. Okay, let's go with that. Physics is a tool we use. Good people can use physics for good purposes, and bad people can use physics for bad purposes. Are we good so far? But notice that physicists are free to experiment, find better answers, and discard old, no longer useful ideas.

Islam is also a tool that can be used for good or for evil. But there are a few problems:

First off, the most natural and obvious understanding of the Quran is that it promotes supremacy, misogyny, anti-semetism, homophobia, and intolerance in general. Over 1300 hundred years of Islamic history demonstrates that millions and millions of Muslims have consistently interpreted the Quran exactly as I have just described. So you can claim that those millions of Muslims got it wrong, but I don't care! As long as so many Muslims continue to get it wrong, it's a dangerous tool.

Second: By its own definition, Islam's ability to evolve is severely limited. For the most part, we're stuck with a vision of the world that came from people who knew almost nothing of the world. This isn't to slam 7th century Arabia, this was the state of the entire world 1300 years ago. I am happy to grant you that Islamic teachings were very useful in a primitive, tribal, hostile slice of desert. But the world is very different than that now, and we cannot afford to give such out-of-date, tribal messages any power. What we've seen for 1300 years is that far too often, Muslims use Islam for evil.

Just to save time, much of what I just said about Islam, is also true of Christianity.

I won't bother much with this because @DawudTalut answered this issue and I agree with it.
But "...far too often, Muslims use Islam for evil." - So does every other religion, don't you think so? You might not agree with any religion, but Christianity for example is much worse and violent in practice than Islam, I won't bother proving this because same old statements will be used with which I don't want to bother at the moment. If you can't apply Islamic views to modern day that just proves you're not very well educated in Islam.

 

[icehorse]

I won't bother much with this because @DawudTalut answered this issue and I agree with it.
But "...far too often, Muslims use Islam for evil." - So does every other religion, don't you think so? You might not agree with any religion, but Christianity for example is much worse and violent in practice than Islam, I won't bother proving this because same old statements will be used with which I don't want to bother at the moment. If you can't apply Islamic views to modern day that just proves you're not very well educated in Islam.

Already answered in my last post... yes, Christianity is just as evil - IMO. But whenever an Islamic apologist says "Christianity is also bad", it reminds me of the "two wrongs make it right" argument, which I hope you can agree is a really, really weak argument.

==

When you accuse me of not being able to apply Islam to modernity, you miss the point entirely. The evidence in the world is that far too many Muslims can't apply Islam to modernity. And I'm not talking about a handful of terrorists, I'm talking about hundreds of millions of Islamists.

 

[Rival]

When folks say "Well the Christians did it," that's like saying, "Why can't I gas the Jews? Hitler did it." It really does sound that malinformed.

 

[Raahim]

Already answered in my last post... yes, Christianity is just as evil - IMO. But whenever an Islamic apologist says "Christianity is also bad", it reminds me of the "two wrongs make it right" argument, which I hope you can agree is a really, really weak argument.

==

When you accuse me of not being able to apply Islam to modernity, you miss the point entirely. The evidence in the world is that far too many Muslims can't apply Islam to modernity. And I'm not talking about a handful of terrorists, I'm talking about hundreds of millions of Islamists.

No, no - I didn't mean that two wrongs makes it right just wanted to be sure you are seeing all religions as equally bad.
Well true picture is that many religious people don't follow their religion as it should be because of XY reasons, Muslims are no exception in it. When there's will everything is possible, it's just that society has too much influence on them.

 

[icehorse]

No, no - I didn't mean that two wrongs makes it right just wanted to be sure you are seeing all religions as equally bad.
Well true picture is that many religious people don't follow their religion as it should be because of XY reasons, Muslims are no exception in it. When there's will everything is possible, it's just that society has too much influence on them.

You say people don't follow religion like they should. I'd sincerely like to know how anyone knows what the "should" is for a religion? How "should" Christians follow Christianity? How "should" Muslims follow Islam? History makes it abundantly clear that religious people kill each other by the millions over disagreements about how their faith "should" be followed. E.g., to this day we have sectarian violence.

If you say society has too much influence, well, based on what? What religious standard are you using to say that? Can you point to an unambiguous definition?

The standard I use is to take religious people at their word when they say they are behaving in the name of their religion.

 

[firedragon]

Already answered in my last post... yes, Christianity is just as evil - IMO. But whenever an Islamic apologist says "Christianity is also bad", it reminds me of the "two wrongs make it right" argument, which I hope you can agree is a really, really weak argument.

==

When you accuse me of not being able to apply Islam to modernity, you miss the point entirely. The evidence in the world is that far too many Muslims can't apply Islam to modernity. And I'm not talking about a handful of terrorists, I'm talking about hundreds of millions of Islamists.

Christianity is not evil. Thats such a vague and bias statement.

Just because a secular state has a tyrannical global policy that does not mean secularism is evil.

I highly doubt that this is what he meant. He meant, in your standards, if you say that islam is evil just because some people are, then Christianity should also be evil for what some Christians did.

He was just explaining the fallacy of your stand.

 

[firedragon]

The standard I use is to take religious people at their word when they say they are behaving in the name of their religion.

IN that case you must also take religious people at their word when they say that the religion is not at fault.

 

[Raahim]

If you say society has too much influence, well, based on what? What religious standard are you using to say that? Can you point to an unambiguous definition?

The standard I use is to take religious people at their word when they say they are behaving in the name of their religion.

I ignore the "how should" part because the healthy logic states that no religion is violent & evil because they believe in Merciful God so they should follow religion in peace. Everything bad that had happened in history and is happening to this day that is prescribed to religions is actually motivated by politics. Suicide bombers of Middle East were non existing until the "great saviour" USA started to intervene there for "democracy and freedom". Society has very huge influence and it's visible every single day, why do many Muslims skip prayer if they are in public (in non-Muslim countries)? Why do many Jews who live in non-Jewish countries reject wearing kippot or put mezuzah on their doors? Because of the society's influence and they (Muslims/Jews) are completely fine with it because if they wanted to be better Muslims they would pray no matter where and Jews would wear proper clothing for their religion.

I'm not saying I'm perfect example, I have my cons but it's simple that people have no will to be different and want to fit into society despite it being very "evil".

 

[icehorse]

Christianity is not evil. Thats such a vague and bias statement.

Just because a secular state has a tyrannical global policy that does not mean secularism is evil.

I highly doubt that this is what he meant. He meant, in your standards, if you say that islam is evil just because some people are, then Christianity should also be evil for what some Christians did.

He was just explaining the fallacy of your stand.

One does not need to criticize everything in order to criticize one thing. Criticizing Islam all by itself is not a fallacy. In a separate thread I might choose to criticize Christianity (and I have done that many times).

 

[icehorse]

IN that case you must also take religious people at their word when they say that the religion is not at fault.

No, not really. Behaviors and talk are two different things. If you say religion is not to blame, you're making a claim that is subject to debate and criticism. If you say you did something in the name of your religion, that is mostly not debatable. If I am to treat you well, I must take you at your word when you make a claim like that, that is not falsifiable.

 

[icehorse]

I ignore the "how should" part because the healthy logic states that no religion is violent & evil because they believe in Merciful God so they should follow religion in peace. Everything bad that had happened in history and is happening to this day that is prescribed to religions is actually motivated by politics. Suicide bombers of Middle East were non existing until the "great saviour" USA started to intervene there for "democracy and freedom". Society has very huge influence and it's visible every single day, why do many Muslims skip prayer if they are in public (in non-Muslim countries)? Why do many Jews who live in non-Jewish countries reject wearing kippot or put mezuzah on their doors? Because of the society's influence and they (Muslims/Jews) are completely fine with it because if they wanted to be better Muslims they would pray no matter where and Jews would wear proper clothing for their religion.

I'm not saying I'm perfect example, I have my cons but it's simple that people have no will to be different and want to fit into society despite it being very "evil".

I disagree with your "healthy logic". The words of religious scripture and the bad behaviors of the religious - in the name of their religion - over centuries, do NOT support your claim that religions are not violent. They most certainly are violent. Long before the US even existed, Muslims were slaughtering Hindus by the 10's of millions. Why? Because the Quran instructs Muslims that polytheists are the worst humans.

 

[Raahim]

I disagree with your "healthy logic". The words of religious scripture and the bad behaviors of the religious - in the name of their religion - over centuries, do NOT support your claim that religions are not violent. They most certainly are violent. Long before the US even existed, Muslims were slaughtering Hindus by the 10's of millions. Why? Because the Quran instructs Muslims that polytheists are the worst humans.

Religion is good, human's interpenetration of it might be bad. On one side they are since they are ungrateful to God for creating them, but I would never harm them and I will always help others in all my possible way to matter what they are as long as they are good. Again I state that Quran was wrongly interpreted by those Muslims, ignorance is present in all generations and as long as there's ignorance history will repeat itself. Fighting enemies (outside war) can be in many ways achieved - even with good deeds, but again we as humans seek easier path despite it going against the God's word.

 

[paarsurrey]

I disagree with your "healthy logic". The words of religious scripture and the bad behaviors of the religious - in the name of their religion - over centuries, do NOT support your claim that religions are not violent. They most certainly are violent. Long before the US even existed, Muslims were slaughtering Hindus by the 10's of millions. Why? Because the Quran instructs Muslims that polytheists are the worst humans.

An individual even if he declares himself a Muslim (or for that matter any religion or no-religion) has to do his deeds as per the guidance provided in the scripture (for no-religion the norms of his ideology), if he does not do that, then the religion or the ideology cannot be blamed for that, as the religion or ideology cannot force him on anything.
If because of a Muslim individual the whole Muslim community is to be blamed or his religion the same should be done with the Atheists/Agnostics/Skeptics etc, they should lift the burden of cruelties done by non-believers (anti-Theists) under Communism, but they don't.
It is double standard; isn't it?
Regards

 

[icehorse]

Hey Raahim and paarsurrey,

Who knows the correct way to interpret the scripture? Can you show me the correct interpretation?

 

[OurCreed]

Well I think I have a pretty good sense, but please, enlighten me...

Well, if you read over the questions again, you'll see my answers and how they clarify your understandings.

 

[Raahim]

Hey Raahim and paarsurrey,

Who knows the correct way to interpret the scripture? Can you show me the correct interpretation?

No I can't show you because it's not something you do in five minutes with few sentences.
I'll just give you a small hint: There are no contradictions and you feel it in your heart. Call that answer however you want, reject it as much as you can but those who lack in faith simply can't understand.

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
The evidence in the world is that far too many Muslims can't apply Islam to modernity. And I'm not talking about a handful of terrorists, I'm talking about hundreds of millions of Islamists.

It depends what you mean by 'modernity'..
If you mean that Muslims should embrace modern secular values then certainly not!

 

[Rival]

It depends what you mean by 'modernity'..
If you mean that Muslims should embrace modern secular values then certainly not!

They should when they come to secular countries.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hey Raahim and paarsurrey,
Who knows the correct way to interpret the scripture? Can you show me the correct interpretation?

It is easy, and I started a thread on it. Let me check and I will let one know.
Yes, I have found it "How to read Quran- the amazing revealed Recitation for correct understanding?". Please access posts #1 and #195.
Regards

 

[muhammad_isa]

They should when they come to secular countries.

No .. people are entitled to hold their own religious values. That's not to say that they should impose them upon others. Muslims also have a duty to obey the law of the country they reside in .. that does not mean that they would necessarily agree with all the laws.

It's only when a law would cause a person to sin that they should not obey it. An example would be a law that forced one to drink alcohol or not attend public worship etc.