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Questions on the big bang expanding universe.

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Your post makes no sense to me. Quote my exact words that you want to respond to and try and avoid non essential verbiage.

Ok, got it.

I know, you have explained your background before. Btw, I am impressed with what you have achieved.

You don't need math to understand that math can't explain how the universe began.

Yes you do not math and physics to develop models of the origins of our universe. What is your science and math background that you can make these assertions you make in this thread, other than the fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance.' Well, ah . . . math can develop math models that are confirmed by observations that support hypothesis of the origins of our universe. There are several models that fit the current knowledge of physics, cosmology and math models.

That is where I am coming from, I am not promoting any cosmological model, I am asking about the bb model. I am not yet convinced that it is correct. I don't doubt the math that does exist to explain the model sans very beginning is quite good as far as math goes, but models of reality are not equal to the reality, they are just a sort of thumb sketch relatively.

Science and math is descriptive of the nature of our physical existence. They are more than a thumb sketch. Again . . . What is your science and math background that you can make these assertions you make in this thread, other than the fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance.'

Still waiting . . .
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Could be.

It depends on whether what you say makes any sense, scientifically speaking.

The thing is that, in science, you can't just make stuff up. Hypotheses only start to have value when observational evidence supports them. So all this tiresome nonsense about "true believers" in the Big Bang is just rhetorical garbage. There is evidence for the Big Bang theory. You are welcome to advance an alternative theory, but it will need to account for the evidence better than the Big Bang model does.
You have got to be kidding, scientists are human and my guess is that there are just as many corrupt minds in that demographic as an other, not withstanding the correct scientific method meant to keep things honest.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Yes you do not math and physics to develop models of the origins of our universe. What is your science and math background that you can make these assertions you make in this thread, other than the fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance.' Well, ah . . . math can develop math models that are confirmed by observations that support hypothesis of the origins of our universe. There are several models that fit the current knowledge of physics, cosmology and math models.



Science and math is descriptive of the nature of our physical existence. They are more than a thumb sketch. Again . . . What is your science and math background that you can make these assertions you make in this thread, other than the fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance.'

Still waiting . . .
You are trying to deflect from your impotence to show how science can explain the beginning of the universe.

Still waiting...
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok, got it.

I know, you have explained your background before. Btw, I am impressed with what you have achieved.

You don't need math to understand that math can't explain how the universe began. That is where I am coming from, I am not promoting any cosmological model, I am asking about the bb model. I am not yet convinced that it is correct. I don't doubt the math that does exist to explain the model sans very beginning is quite good as far as math goes, but models of reality are not equal to the reality, they are just a sort of thumb sketch relatively.


There are two problems that come with the models we find in science.

1. It is easy to take them too seriously. It should always be remembered that our models are our current best guess and may be changed when new information comes in.

2. It is also easy to not take them seriously enough. Since scientific models usually have been extensively tested, they have already shown themselves reliable in a wide variety of situations. Unless there is good observational reason to think they will fail, it is usually a good bet they will not.

When it comes to the Big Bang model, there are aspects that have been thoroughly tested and others that have not been.

For example, the basic model of an expanding universe whose expansion follows the parameters set out in General Relativity has been tested very extensively. We know that this model works well once we get into the stage of nucleosynthesis. The current consensus model based on a cosmological constant (also known as dark energy) and cold dark matter fits the observations incredibly well.

Are there things we don't understand? Yes, of course. We don't know the specifics of how the early galaxies and stars formed, for example. That isn't directly an aspect of the BB scenario, but an extension into galactogenesis. The BB model gives the background parameters, but there is a lot we don't know concerning the sequence and timing of many events.

So, expansion from a hot, dense universe with nuclear reactions, through a time of decoupling of matter from light, to an accelerated expansion is a solid sequence. Exactly when the first stars formed, when the first galaxies formed, how they formed, etc, is a collection of things we know significantly less about.

Prior to the stage of nucleosynthesis, things start becoming less certain. that is partly because we don't fully understand the particle physics for the energies (temperatures) involved, including the role of the HIgg's boson. So, while it is very likely that there was an early period of inflation (exponential expansion), this has not yet been verified and is closely related to some aspects of particle physics we are still learning about.

Prior to the inflationary stage, we have very little data to go on, which makes almost anything said speculation. But, what we know is that at some point quantum aspects of gravity become relevant. The basic BB model does NOT include quantum gravity (although energies less than those from quantum gravity can be handled). And we simply do not have anything close to a tested theory of quantum gravity. We have a LOT of speculation, but almost no hard data.

So, when it comes to some basic questions, like why the universe is mostly matter and has so little anti-matter, we simply don't know. When it comes to the question of why the energy density of a vacuum is what it is, we have almost nothing. Whether the 'singularity' that happens in the basic BB model is even still present in a full treatment involving quantum gravity is not known at all.

So, some questions, like whether there is a multiverse, whether time had a beginning, whether there is a 'cause' for the current expansion phase, and *many* others, simply don't have answers at this point. And, without hard data, we may never know the answers.

Having mathematical models keeps us honest to some extent. it prevents the type of hand waving that people tend to engage in when math is not involved. There is *still* some hand waving, of course, but the amount of it is cut down considerably.

But the precision of a mathematical model, especially when it works, can lead people to think it *must* be true. But all too often we have had good mathematical models that simply turn out to be wrong when extended to the next level. So, what will happen in quantum gravity is anyone's guess. How that will affect the question of whether the current expansion has a cause is also anyone's guess.

But that doesn't mean the basic BB model is wrong. It is incredibly good *in its domain*. But that domain does not include quantum gravity or the specifics of galaxy formation.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You have got to be kidding, scientists are human and my guess is that there are just as many corrupt minds in that demographic as an other, not withstanding the correct scientific method meant to keep things honest.

There are some, sure. But the fact is that a scientific career can be made by showing some cherished idea is *wrong*. So the motivation is actually to show the limits of our current knowledge, to find out where the current model fails, and to find some new idea that explains things better. They key is *always* observation in the end.

A good way to ruin a career is to make fake data or ignore good data.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You are trying to deflect from your impotence to show how science can explain the beginning of the universe.

Still waiting...

You have to familiar with the science and math to understand the scientific hypothesis and models related to the origins of the universe and a possible multiverse.

Again . . . What is your science and math background that you can make these assertions you make in this thread, other than the fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance.'
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
There are two problems that come with the models we find in science.

1. It is easy to take them too seriously. It should always be remembered that our models are our current best guess and may be changed when new information comes in.

2. It is also easy to not take them seriously enough. Since scientific models usually have been extensively tested, they have already shown themselves reliable in a wide variety of situations. Unless there is good observational reason to think they will fail, it is usually a good bet they will not.

When it comes to the Big Bang model, there are aspects that have been thoroughly tested and others that have not been.

For example, the basic model of an expanding universe whose expansion follows the parameters set out in General Relativity has been tested very extensively. We know that this model works well once we get into the stage of nucleosynthesis. The current consensus model based on a cosmological constant (also known as dark energy) and cold dark matter fits the observations incredibly well.

Are there things we don't understand? Yes, of course. We don't know the specifics of how the early galaxies and stars formed, for example. That isn't directly an aspect of the BB scenario, but an extension into galactogenesis. The BB model gives the background parameters, but there is a lot we don't know concerning the sequence and timing of many events.

So, expansion from a hot, dense universe with nuclear reactions, through a time of decoupling of matter from light, to an accelerated expansion is a solid sequence. Exactly when the first stars formed, when the first galaxies formed, how they formed, etc, is a collection of things we know significantly less about.

Prior to the stage of nucleosynthesis, things start becoming less certain. that is partly because we don't fully understand the particle physics for the energies (temperatures) involved, including the role of the HIgg's boson. So, while it is very likely that there was an early period of inflation (exponential expansion), this has not yet been verified and is closely related to some aspects of particle physics we are still learning about.

Prior to the inflationary stage, we have very little data to go on, which makes almost anything said speculation. But, what we know is that at some point quantum aspects of gravity become relevant. The basic BB model does NOT include quantum gravity (although energies less than those from quantum gravity can be handled). And we simply do not have anything close to a tested theory of quantum gravity. We have a LOT of speculation, but almost no hard data.

So, when it comes to some basic questions, like why the universe is mostly matter and has so little anti-matter, we simply don't know. When it comes to the question of why the energy density of a vacuum is what it is, we have almost nothing. Whether the 'singularity' that happens in the basic BB model is even still present in a full treatment involving quantum gravity is not known at all.

So, some questions, like whether there is a multiverse, whether time had a beginning, whether there is a 'cause' for the current expansion phase, and *many* others, simply don't have answers at this point. And, without hard data, we may never know the answers.

Having mathematical models keeps us honest to some extent. it prevents the type of hand waving that people tend to engage in when math is not involved. There is *still* some hand waving, of course, but the amount of it is cut down considerably.

But the precision of a mathematical model, especially when it works, can lead people to think it *must* be true. But all too often we have had good mathematical models that simply turn out to be wrong when extended to the next level. So, what will happen in quantum gravity is anyone's guess. How that will affect the question of whether the current expansion has a cause is also anyone's guess.

But that doesn't mean the basic BB model is wrong. It is incredibly good *in its domain*. But that domain does not include quantum gravity or the specifics of galaxy formation.
Thank you for that excellent summary imho Polymath, it answers just about every question I have and highlights what we don't yet know, everyone should read it.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
You have to familiar with the science and math to understand the scientific hypothesis and models related to the origins of the universe and a possible multiverse.

Again . . . What is your science and math background that you can make these assertions you make in this thread, other than the fallacy of 'arguing from ignorance.'
Here, read this excellent summary of the state of bb scientific models, their strengths and their problems and aspects not yet understood.
Questions on the big bang expanding universe.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
You have got to be kidding, scientists are human and my guess is that there are just as many corrupt minds in that demographic as an other, not withstanding the correct scientific method meant to keep things honest.
My point has nothing to do with corruption or any other human motivation. It is that in science, hypotheses need to be supported by observation of nature before they can become part of a theory.

What I omitted, in order to keep my explanation simple, was that, in science, observations need to be reproducible. That means they have to be capable of being repeated elsewhere, by other people. If one has a scientist who fakes his or her data, or just honestly thinks he or she sees something that is not really there, that will get shown up because nobody will be able to reproduce the observation. "Cold fusion" is a classic example.

In the case of the Big Bang theory, the cosmological red shift and the cosmic background radiation are observations that have been repeated and reconfirmed many, many times. There is no doubt about them.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I agree bb is just a model, but it does not and can not deal with the most critical aspect of the theory of creation, the beginning. I understand that it can't because time had not begun blah blah, but I really can't accept a belief that ca not deal with how it came to be. You are told you can not ask the question of where it all came from, but I am someone who needs to know because at the moment, it makes more sense that the universe, or source therefore has always existed, it had no beginning, Thus I hold off going full belief in it and get called a denier by true believers. Ring bells wrt religious fundies?
Oh I see what you mean. In actual fact, the Big Bang model restricts itself to what seems to have happened immediately after the hypothetical start. The model is consistent with the cosmos having developed from a hypothetical singularity, but as there is no evidence to confirm whether or not this is right, that bit remains speculative.

If you read descriptions of the Big Bang model carefully, you will see this. For instance here: Big Bang - Wikipedia

I would be happy to agree with you that popular descriptions of the model gloss over this limitation and tend to assume that an initial singularity is a fact, when it is actually an extrapolation back to a regime in which our laws of nature would break down. So nobody really knows. All the scientific work on cosmogenesis is concerned with the particle and radiation physics that would - according to the model - have taken place at a slightly later stage, once the normal laws of physics were up and running.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Not quite. because he doesn't understand the basic concepts, your exposition is considered (by him) to be rambling.
Is it really the Staff Member method in RF to participate in a collective mocking?
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
My point has nothing to do with corruption or any other human motivation. It is that in science, hypotheses need to be supported by observation of nature before they can become part of a theory.

What I omitted, in order to keep my explanation simple, was that, in science, observations need to be reproducible. That means they have to be capable of being repeated elsewhere, by other people. If one has a scientist who fakes his or her data, or just honestly thinks he or she sees something that is not really there, that will get shown up because nobody will be able to reproduce the observation. "Cold fusion" is a classic example.

In the case of the Big Bang theory, the cosmological red shift and the cosmic background radiation are observations that have been repeated and reconfirmed many, many times. There is no doubt about them.
Sure I understand that cbr and red shift observations are real, but there is more to it. Have a read if you have not done so of Polymath's summary of bb theory, it lists some of the areas that still need resolution.

Btw, as a matter of interest, when I first read of red shift observations many decades ago, the narrative was all about it being due to the speed of the receding galaxies relative us as one looked back in time towards the bb.. But I have of late read, if I am understanding it correctly, the red shift is caused by the expansion of space in an expanding universe, with the distance between all points of space becoming larger, thus creating the red shift. Now here is my question, the earlier in time as I understand it, the less the expansion and so the less the red shift, so how is this reconciled in determining the age of the receding observed object due to red shift?
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
There are some models that called itself “Theory”, but are not “scientific theory”. For examples, String Theory, M-theory, Superstring Theory, etc, are not scientific theories, because they are untested. So until they have evidence to support them, they are not scientific theories.
You forgot to mention the Big Bang Model - which logically never can be tested scientifically. It can ONLY be assumed.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
But the Big Bang theory is being constantly tested, hence it isn’t a religion, nor it is dogma.
Well, it´s really tested in this article:

Hubble Team Breaks Cosmic Distance Record
Quote:
By pushing NASA’s Hubble Space Telescope to its limits, an international team of astronomers has shattered the cosmic distance record by measuring the farthest galaxy ever seen in the universe. This surprisingly bright infant galaxy, named GN-z11, is seen as it was 13.4 billion years in the past, just 400 million years after the Big Bang".

According to the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis, this should´nt be possible at all.

upload_2020-12-29_12-33-23.png


But the Big Bang theory is being constantly tested, hence it isn’t a religion, nor it is dogma.
Now the question remains if the BB proponents revise this entire idea according to the scientific method when a hypothesis is contradicted - or it keeps on beeing a dogmatic scientific religion.
 
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exchemist

Veteran Member
Sure I understand that cbr and red shift observations are real, but there is more to it. Have a read if you have not done so of Polymath's summary of bb theory, it lists some of the areas that still need resolution.

Btw, as a matter of interest, when I first read of red shift observations many decades ago, the narrative was all about it being due to the speed of the receding galaxies relative us as one looked back in time towards the bb.. But I have of late read, if I am understanding it correctly, the red shift is caused by the expansion of space in an expanding universe, with the distance between all points of space becoming larger, thus creating the red shift. Now here is my question, the earlier in time as I understand it, the less the expansion and so the less the red shift, so how is this reconciled in determining the age of the receding observed object due to red shift?
It is because the greater the lapse of time, the greater the degree of expansion of space that has taken place between then and now. So the stretching between adjacent wave crests in the radiation, as it travels towards the observer, is greater, i.e. a bigger red shift.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Yes you do not math and physics to develop models of the origins of our universe.
Oh, I otherwise thought that cosmological models initially were based on factual observations.

"develop models (by math) of the origins of our Universe"? Are you serious? Your math breakes down several times in such an attempt.
 
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Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
It is because the greater the lapse of time, the greater the degree of expansion of space that has taken place between then and now. So the stretching between adjacent wave crests in the radiation, as it travels towards the observer, is greater, i.e. a bigger red shift.
So the idea that there was ever a doppler red shift associated with receding galaxies is invalid, or is it just a doppler effect period?

On edit. After reading this, it helps, Redshift of distant galaxies: why not a doppler effect?
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
But the fact is that a scientific career can be made by showing some cherished idea is *wrong*. So the motivation is actually to show the limits of our current knowledge, to find out where the current model fails, and to find some new idea that explains things better.
You got to be kidding here. I can mention several scientists who have been tossed out from their scientific society just for having second opinions and then have to fight for decades and decades before their opnions are recognized as a better way of explaing cosmological issues.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
One potential problem with math proof, is math is like a faithful horse that can be led anywhere. One can start with any premise and math can be used to simulate and support it. This can be seen in the math used for video games; physics engines. I can tell the math to allow for infinite lives, which is fun in games, but not in touch with reality. I can then use the game to run experiments to verify that infinite lives is possible, by reviving after continuous conflict over many hours. Others can then verify this with the game math engine.

What is more fundamental than math, is conceptual consistency. Infinite lives is not conceptually consistent with the reality data, even if math can be used to simulate it.

There is a simple conceptual tweak to the BB theory that allows one to explain galaxy formation and why the universe is expanding relative to the galaxies. This tweak is based on simple entropy considerations. In the current model of the BB, we go from a singularity to an expansion into umpteen particles. This transformation, would result in a very drastic increase in entropy; very simple to very complex. This drastic increase in entropy will absorb a lot of energy. The universe should have cooled very fast and lost much of its original giddy-up, as free energy lowers drastically, due to the huge increase in entropy. For galaxies to form, we need the entropy to be much lower. We need another way to expand.

Another way to expand, but in a way that uses less energy for entropy, is for the singularity to simply split into two halves, similar to a mother cell into two daughter cells. This change will also increase entropy, but much less than all at once to umpteen particles. There is much more energy left over for these daughter cells to also split, etc., etc. Picture the singularity splitting like the cells of a fertilized egg into an embryo; body of the universe, with the final cell split at the mass scale of a galaxy.

The last stage would be something similar to mini BB phase, where millions of final cells all puff up like popcorn, releasing powerful energy waves. This will cause turbulence for star formation and also cause the expanding cells to move away relative to each other. We are near the same point as the original BB theory, with the loss of energy cooling.

Gravity is active and helps contains the matter from each cell, in place, as it expands. Decompressing a galaxy level cell, into a material galaxy, allows for order to appear that is tweaked by the powerful energy wave fronts coming from all directions from other cell
 
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