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Questions on the big bang expanding universe.

exchemist

Veteran Member
So the idea that there was ever a doppler red shift associated with receding galaxies is invalid, or is it just a doppler effect period? I think I get it, it amounts to the same thing.
I'm not really au fait with all this since, being only a chemist, I have not studied general relativity. My understanding is that the effects are qualitatively similar but the mathematics are different. However you would need @Polymath257 or someone with more GR knowledge to explain in detail the practical distinction between the two.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure I understand that cbr and red shift observations are real, but there is more to it. Have a read if you have not done so of Polymath's summary of bb theory, it lists some of the areas that still need resolution.

Btw, as a matter of interest, when I first read of red shift observations many decades ago, the narrative was all about it being due to the speed of the receding galaxies relative us as one looked back in time towards the bb.. But I have of late read, if I am understanding it correctly, the red shift is caused by the expansion of space in an expanding universe, with the distance between all points of space becoming larger, thus creating the red shift. Now here is my question, the earlier in time as I understand it, the less the expansion and so the less the red shift, so how is this reconciled in determining the age of the receding observed object due to red shift?

The latter description of the cosmic red shift is the correct one. For *close* galaxies, this is approximated by a doppler shift corresponding to an apparent velocity, but for larger distances/redshifts, that breaks down. In your earlier reading, only smaller redshifts had been observed.

That had changed over time. For example, we see galaxies that have redshifts over z=1, which would correspond to a velocity more than the speed of light. But the light was still able to catch up because the expansion of space itself brought the light along (the speed of light is constant *locally* in general relativity--global effects can give different results).

The red shift shows how much space has expanding since the light was emitted. So, light emitted from hydrogen (the most common element by far) has very specific wavelengths. As space expands, the wavelengths are extended and become longer. What we observe when we detect that light, may have double the wavelength of the original light from hydrogen.

But the degree of redshift is still related to how long that light has been traveling because it relates to the amount that space has expanded since that time.

In the scientific literature, distances are usually actually given by redshift. That gives relative ages and is easy to determine from observation. When distances in terms of light years or when ages are determined, though, things get more complicated. Again, the relation between redshift and age depends on the specifics of how space expanded during the time of flight of the light. So to get the actual relation between redshifts and age, we need something *else* to resolve that correspondence.

This is what 'standard candles' do. They are objects/events that have a fixed brightness no matter where they occur. Early in the study of cosmology, Cepheid variable stars were used as standard candles. Their brightness is directly correlated to how long they take to cycle. Once their brightness was known, the distance is easy to calculate. Well, for close (within a couple billion light years) things. There is a story here, but determining the brightness of the Cepheid variables was a huge undertaking for a while.

Nowadays, the distances we are probing are such that resolving individual stars, like the Cepheid variables, is impossible unless something dramatic is going on. And, dramatic things do go on: supernovas. These are incredibly bright events that can be detected across the observable universe. And, a specific type of supernova is both fairly common (in the universe as a whole) and a standard candle (as far as we know). This has allowed us to extend our distance measurements far, far further out. More accurately, the correlation between redshift and distance has been extended.

And, in fact, it was the supernova data that showed the accelerating expansion rate. And that resurrected an old, discarded, model that had a cosmological constant proposed by Einstein (another story here). That cosmological constant is equivalent to an energy density for a vacuum, which we now call dark energy.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not really au fait with all this since, being only a chemist, I have not studied general relativity. My understanding is that the effects are qualitatively similar but the mathematics are different. However you would need @Polymath257 or someone with more GR knowledge to explain in detail the practical distinction between the two.

At smaller redshifts, the results are similar. At relativistic redshifts, they are not. The expansion redshift is NOT a doppler redshift. It is due to expansion of space.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Btw, as a matter of interest, when I first read of red shift observations many decades ago, the narrative was all about it being due to the speed of the receding galaxies relative us as one looked back in time towards the bb.. But I have of late read, if I am understanding it correctly, the red shift is caused by the expansion of space in an expanding universe, with the distance between all points of space becoming larger, thus creating the red shift.
The redshift idea is a mixe up idea of measuring changing sound vawes moving towards and away from the listener - and this idea of changing frequenses was later on applied to measuring distances in cosmos by using the E&M light frequency and taking the luminosity of so called "cosmic standard candle" of the Type 1a Supernovae, to measure observed distance to a certain object in cosmos - which of course has huge known problems.

Taking a certain luminous cosmic object to count as an universal distance measuring method is inconsistent as not two stars are excactly the same and the light from one luminous object is skewed, dispersed and delayed differently from other objects by cosmic gas and dust on it´s way to the telescope, thus causing the scientific conclusion (really: confusion) of an "expansion" and even an impossible "increasing velocity expansion" in the Universe.

"The farther away an object is measured, the faster it´s expansion velocity" it is postulated. Which really reveals that something is seriously wrong with the accepted cosmic redshift distance measuring method.

How on Earth can a cosmic object change it´s velocity just by a change of distance? This isn´t science but science fiction.

Halton Christian "Chip" Arp (March 21, 1927 – December 28, 2013) was an American astronomer who especially studied galaxies. When comparing some observed galaxies with their assigned redshift data, he once discovered that a galaxy and a connected specific quasar light source had two very different numbers of redshift, which he of course criticised publical in articles and lectures.

Of course Halton Christian Arp very soon was excluded from using his astronomy telescope and tossed out of the consensus society as beeing a scientific heretic by questioning the redshift measuring method assumptions and subsequently logically also questioned the very idea of a Big Bang.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, it´s really tested in this article:

Hubble Team Breaks Cosmic Distance Record
Quote:
By pushing NASA’s Hubble Space Telescope to its limits, an international team of astronomers has shattered the cosmic distance record by measuring the farthest galaxy ever seen in the universe. This surprisingly bright infant galaxy, named GN-z11, is seen as it was 13.4 billion years in the past, just 400 million years after the Big Bang".

According to the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis, this should´nt be possible at all.

Now the question remains if the BB proponents revise this entire idea according to the scientific method when a hypothesis is contradicted - or it keeps on beeing a dogmatic scientific religion.

Where in the article on nucleosynthesis does it say we would not be able to see a galaxy that formed 400 million years later? This is well after the era of decoupling, which is well after the era of nucleosynthesis.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
At smaller redshifts, the results are similar. At relativistic redshifts, they are not. The expansion redshift is NOT a doppler redshift. It is due to expansion of space.
Indeed.

But what do you mean by a relativistic redshift? Is this connected with the fact that one can have recessional velocities >c? Something I've never been clear about is whether, under the cosmological redshift, one can still see red-shifted light from an object with a recessional velocity >c.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Oh, I otherwise thought that cosmological models initially were based on factual observations.

"develop models (by math) of the origins of our Universe"? Are you serious? Your math breakes down several times in such an attempt.

All of the above is false. Science uses math as part of its too box combined with objective observations to modeling and describing the nature of our physical existence since the at least Greeks and of course Newton.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
The redshift idea is a mixe up idea of measuring changing sound vawes moving towards and away from the listener - and this idea of changing frequenses was later on applied to measuring distances in cosmos by using the E&M light frequency and taking the luminosity of so called "cosmic standard candle" of the Type 1a Supernovae, to measure observed distance to a certain object in cosmos - which of course has huge known problems.

Taking a certain luminous cosmic object to count as an universal distance measuring method is inconsistent as not two stars are excactly the same and the light from one luminous object is skewed, dispersed and delayed differently from other objects by cosmic gas and dust on it´s way to the telescope, thus causing the scientific conclusion (really: confusion) of an "expansion" and even an impossible "increasing velocity expansion" in the Universe.

"The farther away an object is measured, the faster it´s expansion velocity" it is postulated. Which really reveals that something is seriously wrong with the accepted cosmic redshift distance measuring method.

How on Earth can a cosmic object change it´s speed just by a change of distance? This isn´t science but science fiction.

Halton Christian "Chip" Arp (March 21, 1927 – December 28, 2013) was an American astronomer who especially studied galaxies. When comparing some observed galaxies with their assigned redshift data, he once discovered that a galaxy and a connected specific quasar light source had two very different numbers of redshift, which he of course criticised publical in articles and lectures.

Of course Halton Christian Arp very soon was excluded from using his astronomy telescope and tossed out of the consensus society as beeing a scientific heretic by questioning the redshift measuring method assumptions and subsequently logically also questioned the very idea of a Big Bang.

Arp's views were discussed, evaluated, and found to be unjustified. He continued to publish (which shows he was still regarded as part of the scientific community) and his ideas are still discussed. But, you are correct, his ideas have not achieved consensus. His claims have not held up to better data that has been found since Arp did his original catalog. In particular, the correlation between quasars and galaxies simply doesn't hold. Most of the 'connections' Arp found were results of the photographic processes used at the time. With more modern methods of photography, they don't remain.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Where in the article on nucleosynthesis does it say we would not be able to see a galaxy that formed 400 million years later? This is well after the era of decoupling, which is well after the era of nucleosynthesis.

upload_2020-12-29_15-2-9.png


Where in this scheme do you find the initial BB Nucleosynthesis evolution of galaxies and where is the "farthest away galaxy" found in the scheme? It´s located in a stage where galaxies shouldn´t have been found at all and as such it is a contradiction of the BB Nucleosynthesis which then shall be revised and even discarded.

Just try to get the written dots and image together before going automatically into denial mode.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Indeed.

But what do you mean by a relativistic redshift? Is this connected with the fact that one can have recessional velocities >c? Something I've never been clear about is whether, under the cosmological redshift, one can still see red-shifted light from an object with a recessional velocity >c.

Yes, anything with z>1.46 corresponds to a recessional velocity >c. I think the current limit for a red shift for a galaxy is 11.1.

The following article is a bit technical, but goes into a lot of misconceptions that are around about the BB model:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...uperluminal-expansion-of-the-universe-div.pdf

(Thanks to @ChristineM for the reference)

Many of the misconceptions are common in the popular literature. Some are even common among physicists. if you can push through it, this is a very good article to clear up confusion.

One big issue is the notion of co-moving coordinates. if we imagine the universe expanding, we can set up coordinates where objects moving with the expansion have a fixed spatial coordinate. This is not a 'true' distance coordinate, but it can simplify the math considerably. Many times, the picture simplifies in comoving coordinates and allows a better understanding of what is going on.
 
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Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Arp's views were discussed, evaluated, and found to be unjustified. He continued to publish (which shows he was still regarded as part of the scientific community) and his ideas are still discussed. But, you are correct, his ideas have not achieved consensus. His claims have not held up to better data that has been found since Arp did his original catalog. In particular, the correlation between quasars and galaxies simply doesn't hold. Most of the 'connections' Arp found were results of the photographic processes used at the time. With more modern methods of photography, they don't remain.
Of course Arp was rejected by convensus scientists who wasn´t and isn´t able to think independently and act against the consensus science. This happens all the time and in many cases, such pathetic rejections of "heretics" really are a genuine hallmark for real scientific discoveries by thinking differently.

Such pathetic rejections even take place right in this forum
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
View attachment 46471

Where in this scheme do you find the initial BB Nucleosynthesis evolution of galaxies and where is the "farthest away galaxy" found in the scheme? I´t located in a stage where galaxies shouldn´t have been found at all.

Just try to get the written dots and image together before going automatically into denial mode.

You do realize that nucleosynthesis and the formation of galaxies are separated in time by hundreds of millions of years, right?

I don't know how you get that galaxies shouldn't be found at all at the point this oldest galaxy appears. Nucleosynthesis happens at the far right. The first stars happen just to the left of the orange strip. This galaxy happens at the beginning of reionization. Modern galaxies happen much later.

What do you see the problem as being?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course Arp was rejected by convensus scientists who wasn´t and isn´t able to think independently. This happens all the time and in many cases, this is really genuine hallmark for real scientific discoveries.

They did think independently. They simply disagreed with Arp.

Arp was not able to give sufficient hard evidence of his claims. When further data came in, his claims became LESS consistent with the data. That is why the consensus does not agree with his position.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Native said:
Atmospheric pressure - Wikipedia
Quote:
"In most circumstances, atmospheric pressure is closely approximated by the hydrostatic pressure caused by the weight of air above the measurement point.
Yes, we all know that. How does that make things fall?
I know where you´re are going with that question:

"But the atmosperic pressure works on all sides and thus balances everything".

And the you can explain how the phenomenon of a water or mercury colomn works and rises by the weight of air which obviously overcomes your fantasy gravity from the Earth.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
And the you can explain how the phenomenon of a water or mercury colomn works and rises by the weight of air which obviously overcomes your fantasy gravity from the Earth.

Try explaining it without gravity. You keep on using "weight"- nothing can weigh anything without gravity.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Native said:
Atmospheric pressure - Wikipedia
Quote:
"In most circumstances, atmospheric pressure is closely approximated by the hydrostatic pressure caused by the weight of air above the measurement point.

I know where you´re are going with that question:

"But the atmosperic pressure works on all sides and thus balances everything".

And the you can explain how the phenomenon of a water or mercury colomn works and rises by the weight of air which obviously overcomes your fantasy gravity from the Earth.

The pressure from the atmosphere is not countered by a pressure at the top of the tube (because there is a vacuum at the top). So it is the *gravity* acting on the water or mercury in the tube that is countering the pressure of the air.

If there was no vacuum at the top, there would be no rise in the water or mercury because the pressures would balance and gravity would be the net force on the liquid.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
You do realize that nucleosynthesis and the formation of galaxies are separated in time by hundreds of millions of years, right?
upload_2020-12-29_15-43-12.png

You do realize that galaxies in large numbers are found on the left side of the scheme and a pair of galaxies are found in the right side of the scheme where the BB nucleosynthesis is thought to begin in the assumed BB theory?

Such a galactic formation shouldn´t have taken place so early after BB and this notion is mentioned all over the places in articles.

It would be nice that you too notise what is said in articles in order to have a fruitfull debate.
 

Native

Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Try explaining it without gravity. You keep on using "weight"- nothing can weigh anything without gravity.
You¨re simply confusing the atomic E&M binding of particles as weight and then you´re confusing this weight to contain your illusive "gravity".

Oh, so it´s your gravity which causes water and mercury colums to rise and fall in changing atmospheric pressures? So "gravity" isn´t a constant force? Or is it that your gravity works both ways?

As far as I know it´s only the atmospheric pressure and of course E&M which can work both ways.
 
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ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
You do realize that galaxies in large numbers are found on the left side of the scheme and a pair of galaxies are found in the right side of the scheme where the BB nucleosynthesis is thought to begin in the assumed BB theory?

According to the link you provided; "Primordial nucleosynthesis is believed by most cosmologists to have taken place in the interval from roughly 10 seconds to 20 minutes after the Big Bang", so how does this impact on galaxy formation 400 million years later?
 
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