Questions that believers cannot answer

[Trailblazer]

No one but God has always existed. No matter what your cult tells you.

Perhaps that is true, but that does not mean Jesus is God.

Jesus is NOT God. Only God is God, and there is only One God.
The Jews and the Muslims and the Baha'is all know that.
It is only the Christians who believe in the false doctrine of the Church that made Jesus into God.

 

[Trailblazer]

God is able to show people things as they will be. Why can't these people know?

But God has not shown anyone what the afterlife will be like. God has kept that under His Hat.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

 

[Trailblazer]

This presumes that our life started at birth or conception.

I believe that the souls of all humans come into existence at the time of conception, and later they are born with physical bodies.

However, I believe that the souls of the Prophets are different. I believe their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world and later their souls were sent by God to earth to unite with their bodies and then they were born into this world.

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to
picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[Trailblazer]

If we only look at mortal life it is most unfair. If we just glimpse into eternity. The problems are not so bad.

That is true, but the problem is that we cannot SEE into eternity, we can only have faith that the next life exists and it will be much better than this life!

Interestingly, what you just said is in the scriptures of my religion, almost verbatim, so if course I believe it.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

By Book of Life He means fate and predestination, as the Book of Life contains everything that has ever happened to us and everything that will ever happen to us in this world and the next world.

 

[Trailblazer]

I find no benefit in trying to blame God for what others do.

I do not think we should ever blame God for what others do. That would be unfair.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

So you don't believe that your god infallibly knows the future, or determines events by his will and decree?

Yes, if He chooses to, but that’s just like if we could see the future… it wouldn’t mean that we had any control over those events. Neither does He. Events unrelated to His purpose develop on their own.

He can control what occurs, of course, and maneuver events to fulfill His purposes and promises (as He did with Abraham, involving His arrangement of redeeming mankind, ie., through Jesus), but for the most part Jehovah stays out of mankind’s affairs….

You think that stuff just happens and god has nothing to do with it, he is merely an observer of the universe doing its thang.

Pretty much. Calling God “an observer” is just about right. He has intervened at times, as per above.

But Why doesn’t He step in all the time?

Because back in the Garden of Eden, in Genesis 3, accusations were made & issues were raised questioning God’s right to rule, that He was hiding something, and saying that man can make his own choices, that he doesn’t need to listen to God, or obey Him.

We learn in Revelation 12:9 that a spirit creature was actually controlling that Genesis serpent, using it as a ventriloquist would, to raise those issues. (I find it interesting that we find something in the *last* book, Revelation, that helps explain something in the *first* book.)

And millions of other spirit creatures (angels) were watching & hearing this. Unfortunately, A&E gave those issues life when they rebelled.

So what was Jehovah to do? He could have destroyed the rebels, and started again….but that wouldn’t have solved the issue. The wisest course was to allow the issues to resolve themselves….let mankind try this experiment in self-rule.

So every form of government has been tried, and mankind has divided themselves. To the point of even killing each other.

But Jehovah doesn’t overtly step in. (Maybe He has. Maybe He’s prevented nuclear war, or a “MAD” scenario.)
If Jehovah stepped in all the time, He’d be defeating, ie., working against, His side of issue, which is that ultimately Man can’t rule himself successfully; we need guidance from our Creator, who is all - wise. Always. (Or, wait….he’s …always…wise? Something like that. Hehe)

He’s also let the Earth and it’s huge systems continue on its own without His control of its processes. Man has to contend with these problems (like hurricanes, volcanoes, diseases, and Global Warming) on his own. Evolutionary mechanisms, also. (The Bible states that “all green vegetation” was good for food…. Not anymore!)

When you think about it, Jehovah God has been more patient than anyone….He’s had to observe a lot of hurtful things. Once the issues regarding humans are resolved, though, they will be settled forever. No more disruptive influences will be allowed.

But the Kingdom that we pray to “come”, and for God’s ‘Will to be done on Earth’ (Matthew 6:9-10), will soon exert its influence. (We’re in the Last Days — we’ve reached the point where humans can & have negatively impacted the entire planet & its atmosphere.) God will “bring to ruin those ruining the Earth”. — Revelation 11:18

And the bad things each of us have experienced in our 70-90 years of living, “will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” — Isaiah 65:17.

IMO, from years of studying and researching the Bible with the help of JW’s.

Any questions, please ask.

@Trailblazer; just wanted you to be notified of this.

@nPeace , @tigger2 , @URAVIP2ME , @YoursTrue , @Eyes to See , please add anything you think is useful. Or please clarify something you think I wrote is unclear. As I’ve said, I’m not a very good writer.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, if He chooses to, but that’s just like if we could see the future… it wouldn’t mean that we had any control over those events. Neither does He. Events unrelated to His purpose develop on their own.

He can control what occurs, of course, and maneuver events to fulfill His purposes and promises (as He did with Abraham, involving His arrangement of redeeming mankind, ie., through Jesus), but for the most part Jehovah stays out of mankind’s affairs….

Pretty much. Calling God “an observer” is just about right. He has intervened at times, as per above.

But Why doesn’t He step in all the time?

Because back in the Garden of Eden, in Genesis 3, accusations were made & issues were raised questioning God’s right to rule, that He was hiding something, and saying that man can make his own choices, that he doesn’t need to listen to God, or obey Him.

We learn in Revelation 12:9 that a spirit creature was actually controlling that Genesis serpent, using it as a ventriloquist would, to raise those issues. (I find it interesting that we find something in the *last* book, Revelation, that helps explain something in the *first* book.)

And millions of other spirit creatures (angels) were watching & hearing this. Unfortunately, A&E gave those issues life when they rebelled.

So what was Jehovah to do? He could have destroyed the rebels, and started again….but that wouldn’t have solved the issue. The wisest course was to allow the issues to resolve themselves….let mankind try this experiment in self-rule.

So every form of government has been tried, and mankind has divided themselves. To the point of even killing each other.

But Jehovah doesn’t overtly step in. (Maybe He has. Maybe He’s prevented nuclear war, or a “MAD” scenario.)
If Jehovah stepped in all the time, He’d be defeating, ie., working against, His side of issue, which is that ultimately Man can’t rule himself successfully; we need guidance from our Creator, who is all - wise. Always. (Or, wait….he’s …always…wise? Something like that. Hehe)

He’s also let the Earth and it’s huge systems continue on its own without His control of its processes. Man has to contend with these problems (like hurricanes, volcanoes, diseases, and Global Warming) on his own. Evolutionary mechanisms, also. (The Bible states that “all green vegetation” was good for food…. Not anymore!)

When you think about it, Jehovah God has been more patient than anyone….He’s had to observe a lot of hurtful things. Once the issues regarding humans are resolved, though, they will be settled forever. No more disruptive influences will be allowed.

But the Kingdom that we pray to “come”, and for God’s ‘Will to be done on Earth’ (Matthew 6:9-10), will soon exert its influence. (We’re in the Last Days — we’ve reached the point where humans can & have negatively impacted the entire planet & its atmosphere.) God will “bring to ruin those ruining the Earth”. — Revelation 11:18

And the bad things each of us have experienced in our 70-90 years of living, “will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” — Isaiah 65:17.

IMO, from years of studying and researching the Bible with the help of JW’s.

Any questions, please ask.

@Trailblazer; just wanted you to be notified of this.

@nPeace , @tigger2 , @URAVIP2ME , @YoursTrue , @Eyes to See , please add anything you think is useful. Or please clarify something you think I wrote is unclear. As I’ve said, I’m not a very good writer.

I agree with many of your points, but I do not have time to address all of them right now.

The main thing that I agree on is that God does not step in and why God does not step in...
I think its is downright silly to even expect God to step in since God is not a human with feet that can step in.

Aside from that, God gave humans dominion over the Earth so why would God take it back? That is not logical. As you said, man has to contend with these problems (like hurricanes, volcanoes, diseases, and Global Warming) on his own.

I also agree that ultimately man can’t rule himself successfully without assistance; we need guidance from our Creator, who is all - wise.

I also agree we are in the end times although I have a different understanding of what the end times are.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe that Resurrection Day has already occurred.........
I believe that Enjoy Life Forever will be the final outcome, but it will not be that way for everyone and it will not be a physical life and it will not be on this Earth. It will be in Heaven.......................

You surely are Not alone in your thinking.
Most of 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian ) puts eternal life as only in Heaven.
Whereas, Jesus taught that humble meek people will inherit the Earth from Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5
If Resurrection Day has already taken place then your relatives tracing back to one of Noah's sons are here with you.
Since you believe they are in Heaven, then to you Earth is merely a stepping stone to Heaven.
Adam was never offered Heaven only Earth - everlasting life on Earth.
In the Bible we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 to God for Jesus to come !
We don't pray to be 'taken away' to the kingdom, nor pray to be 'taken up' to the kingdom but for the kingdom to come.
Come so that there will be 'healing' for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2- Heaven needs No healing.
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick....." -Isaiah 33:24 - there is No sickness in heaven.
Earth and its people will be healthy as described in Isaiah 35th chapter. Healing does Not need to come to Heaven.
Enemy death exists here on Earth, there is No death in Heaven, so when Jesus does away with enemy death it will be here on Earth. No body dies in Heaven, death is an earthly problem. - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I agree with many of your points, but I do not have time to address all of them right now.
The main thing that I agree on is that God does not step in and why God does not step in...
I think its is downright silly to even expect God to step in since God is not a human with feet that can step in.
Aside from that, God gave humans dominion over the Earth so why would God take it back? That is not logical. As you said, man has to contend with these problems (like hurricanes, volcanoes, diseases, and Global Warming) on his own.
I also agree that ultimately man can’t rule himself successfully without assistance; we need guidance from our Creator, who is all - wise.
I also agree we are in the end times although I have a different understanding of what the end times are.

I find God is Not taking back that humans have dominion over Earth but a righteous dominion - Genesis 1:28
God is moving forward to bring to ruin those ruining the Earth - Revelation 11:18 B; Jeremiah 10:23
MAN's long history has proven that MAN can't direct HIS step, so God is going to have Jesus step in.
Jesus will take the action to rid the Earth of the wicked as found at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
( the wicked to be 'destroyed forever' - Psalms 37:38; Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22 )
So, we are at the 'end times of all badness on Earth' before Jehovah God has Jesus step in.
This is why we are all invited to pray to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come so humble meek people will inherit the Earth and keep Earth as God requires at Genesis 1:28.

 

[YoursTrue]

I agree with many of your points, but I do not have time to address all of them right now.

The main thing that I agree on is that God does not step in and why God does not step in...
I think its is downright silly to even expect God to step in since God is not a human with feet that can step in.

Aside from that, God gave humans dominion over the Earth so why would God take it back? That is not logical. As you said, man has to contend with these problems (like hurricanes, volcanoes, diseases, and Global Warming) on his own.

I also agree that ultimately man can’t rule himself successfully without assistance; we need guidance from our Creator, who is all - wise.

I also agree we are in the end times although I have a different understanding of what the end times are.

If I may, God gave dominion temporarily to man until such time as He deems fit. And it seems to be coming soon. As far as stepping in, He steps in when He deems it necessary.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........But honestly i do not blame God for my suffering, if i had not had my spiritual life and current belief in God, i had ended my life multiple times already. But i have so much good to live for in my life. Life is pain and suffering but one can overcome it one way an other i believe.

How good to know you don't blame God for God made everything very good.
We can place the blame on sinner Satan who introduced sin ( rebellion ) into our world.
Sinner Satan challenged a man named Job (Job 2:4-5) that under suffering conditions he would Not serve God.
Not only Job but the rest of us included even Jesus in Satan's suffering challenge.
Both Job and Jesus under suffering conditions proved faithful to God and so can we.
We too can prove Satan a liar and Not blame God.
We are all also invited to pray to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and bring HEALING to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2
Healing to the point that No one will say, " I am sick...." - Isaiah 33:24
Coming healing to Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Perhaps that is true, but that does not mean Jesus is God.
Jesus is NOT God. Only God is God, and there is only One God.The Jews and the Muslims and the Baha'is all know that. It is only the Christians who believe in the false doctrine of the Church that made Jesus into God.

Wrong, it is the fake 'weed/tares' Christians that believe that false doctrine.
Genuine 'wheat ' Christians believe pre-human Jesus was 'IN' the beginning but Not 'BEFORE' the beginning.
Only God was BEFORE the beginning or start of anything according to Psalms 90:2
Pre-human heavenly Jesus was in the beginning according to Revelation 3:14 B Not before any beginning.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12.

Even the old King James noticed there was a difference between God and Jesus at Psalms 110.
KJV uses all Upper-Case letters for God by putting LORD in all capital letters.
KJV uses some lower-case letter for Jesus by putting Lord in some lower-case letters.
The Tetragrammaton -YHWH - stands for LORD God.
The Tetragrammaton never is used in connection to Lord Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus is and was God incarnate.

Jesus paid the price for Adam's sin, Not for God's sin.
Thus, Jesus balanced the Scales of Justice for us: Life for Life = equal life for equal life.
Sinner Adam, Not sinner God, brought down the Scales of Justice for us. Jesus balanced the Scales of Justice for us.

God had No beginning according to Psalms 90:2.
Thus, only God was 'before' the beginning of anything.
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was "IN" the beginning but Never ' before ' the beginning as his God was.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3;12

 

[Truthseeker]

Did I forget to tell you that?

I don't if you told me that or not. It was 8 years ago, and my memory is not good these days.

That was a veritable nightmare but what is going on now is so much worse.
Everything in life is relative.

Hang in there. I may have lower empathy because of being on the autism spectrum, but I give whatever empathy I can. (See my conversation with you).

 

[Trailblazer]

Hang in there. I may have lower empathy because of being on the autism spectrum, but I give whatever empathy I can. (See my conversation with you).

I saw it. Despite your autism, I think you have more empathy than Lewis.

 

[KWED]

That an absurd accusation.

Oh dear. Do I really have to walk you through the implications of your own statements?...

TB said "it really does not help me much when the losses are just too overwhelming"
You used your having had flu as an analogy for suffering in life that eventually passes, in the context of "overwhelming loss".

So, a bit like someone complaining about the pain of cancer and you replying that you had toothache once and you got over it. An asinine comparison.

 

[KWED]

I have no mental health issues

You said you had emotional pain that caused you to consider taking your own life on several occasions. That is the definition of "mental health issues". With all due respect, accepting you have a problem is the first step in addressing the problem.

and religion is not how I cope with difficulties. The first thing I do is try to problem solve and research every avenue that might help resolve the issue. When desperate, I do turn to God and cry out for help, that perchance I might get help, but mostly I try to cope all by myself, or if I need to I turn to kind and caring people who understand

Religion will not address the cause of the problem. Like medication, it just addresses the symptoms. Counselling, therapy, etc are the only way to address the source. The fact that you say the issue is long-term and ongoing suggests that the Band Aid of religion keeps coming off.

 

[Sheldon]

From a purely logical point of view it can.

I am dubious.

I think you missed the point entirely. You know full well that good and evil are arbitrary unless there's some kind of universal standard.

I know they're subjective ideas, but I certainly don't know they are entirely arbitrary, and beyond a broad consensus there is no universal standard, so no, this is what you subjectively think, not what I know at all.

You will never get all people to agree on what the terms even mean.

I imagine that's why we create and use reference tools like dictionaries, so we can easily access what most people understand words to mean, though of course language is constantly evolving. I fail to see how this is evidence that mass murder is as you claimed, a common sense solution to over population? Maybe my common sense differs in as much as mine must involve empathy.

If we want to address the exponentially increasing human population far more common sense solutions might involve sex education, to avoid unwanted pregnancies, free access to early terminations, freely available and affordable contraception, lifting people in the developing world out of poverty, and offering people some type of security in old age, so they didn't feel their only recourse was to have large families to take care of them etc etc....These seem like common sense solutions to me, mass murder does not.

 

[KWED]

Ok... apparently you haven't studied the Bible:

Define "study".

1) You did side-step because you had selective reasoning when you mentioned Dresden which wasn't my point. (Your point is correct - but it wasn't what I was talking about and proceeded with my point

You raised the issue of the atrocities committed by the Allies during WW2. Therefore mentioning Dresden was absolutely apposite.
Also, what does this have to do with "Bible study"?

2) It would be hypocritical to say you see hypocrisy.

In what way? Even as an attempt to accuse me of hypocrisy (good luck showing that), it makes no sense.

My point about hypocrisy was that you keep avoiding my questions about the morality of deliberately killing civilians because to condemn it in principle means condemning god, but to condone it makes you look like a monster. It's that old religious rock and a hard place again.

3) If a civilian is doing wrong, it isn't murder (speaking of the TaNaKh) -

So if someone is driving without insurance, it is ok to kill them?

so since you don't know why God ordered differently for different people of "why", you have no idea (other than your biased opinion) of how to judge it. -

This is where my superior morality comes into play. I don't need to know "why" someone ordered the indiscriminate slaughter of women and children. I condemn it as a barbaric atrocity regardless. It's a pity that you (and many other religionists) find it so difficult.
And there lies one of the very real dangers of your kind of blind dogma. You are prepared to defend or justify (or for some, even commit) the most abhorrent acts simply because you have been ordered to. The Nuremberg Defence yet again.

4) "The issue of "collateral damage" (civilian deaths unavoidable in the context of taking out a legitimate military target) is still a difficult issue." EXACTLY. So go back and find out why - and even if is a legitimate military target, it is still "difficult"

You seem to be missing the point. It is difficult to justify attacks even on legitimate military targets if civilian casualties may ensue (we are now seeing this put into practice by some nations). You are saying that we shouldn't worry about civilian casualties if there is a possible military advantage to be gained - or even if we are simply ordered to do it.

because, as the Jewish sages say "If you kill one person, you kill a generation.

A meaningless platitude. Moreso because the Torah and OT repeatedly prescribe or condone killing.
Cherry-picking quotes from religious scripture to support a specific position rarely works because there is usually a contradictory passage somewhere. Killing is a perfect example. Apologists will point to one solitary passage while ignoring the dozens that contradict it. (What was that you were saying about "not studying the Bible"?)

5) Jesus said, "This is the NEW Covenant"... meaning the other covenant was being changed. EVERYTHING changed.

That doesn't say that he was abolishing all the OT laws. In fact, he said that he wasn't doing that. “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them"

So, quite frankly, as horrible as it is including WWII (and it was horrible) - sometimes it is a difficult issue and required difficult decision...

I fail to see why you think the indiscriminate and unnecessary slaughter of women and children is "a difficult issue". It is simply wrong. Period. Whatever the supposed "justification".

UNLESS - you want us to speak in German, have the Jews eradicated and others, and not be the perfect race that they wanted and believed in.

By the time the decision was made to carry out the purely punitive raids against Dresden and other targets in 1945, Germany was on its knees and had been all but defeated. Not doing it would have had no effect on the outcome of the war.

So... are you in favor of not killing so that those who do can continue?

I consider the killing of combatants during defensive military operations an undesirable necessity.
I consider the indiscriminate and unnecessary killing of civilian women and children to be morally repugnant and wrong under any circumstances.
How about you? You have been strangely reluctant on these issues, despite raising them.
Explain under what circumstances you consider the indiscriminate killing of civilian women and children to be acceptable. (Don't worry, I understand why you will side-step this issue again. *rock vs hard place* )

 

[KWED]

No one but God has always existed. No matter what your cult tells you.

Every religion started as a cult.