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Questions that believers cannot answer

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Lets play game of football. To ensure that no one gets hurt we won't actually have any contact
Erm, that is one of the basic rules of football. It is a non-contact sport.

running or passing.
Those don't involve injury.

Also to prevent any hurt feelings there won't be any good plays or bad ones.
Kinda subjective. I know people who don't like Shakespeare. And where do you stand on Beckett?

no scores kept no celebrating achievement, no choices to be made, no skill to develop, no outcome to be determined.
No idea where you are going with this.

The only way to have achievement and growth is for there to be risk.
That's quite the non sequitur. Care to explain?

Now in life there are some pretty major opportunities for love and hate, good and evil.
However in the grand scheme of the eternities it is brief.
Nope, lost me again.

I'm guessing that if I offered you $10 for a kidney you say no. On the other hand @ $50,000,000,000 and you'd be tripping over yourself to sign the contract.
You are making the mistake of assuming that everyone thinks the way you do. People regularly donate kidneys for no money at all.

Mortal life is a high risk short term learning experience and it is very unfair in the short term. However we gave God our consent to come knowing the risks ,
I didn't give god my consent for anything. If I had been consulted, I would have had more than a few issues to raise.
And why did god make it so high risk and unfair when there was no need?

and its on us to try to reduce suffering even when its far beyond us to end it all
And many people much of their lives trying to mitigate the damage done by god. Ironically, they are often people who don't believe in him. But I guess it is easier to shrug and say "Meh, it's god's will" than to actually do something about it.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It always puzzles me when religionists seem unaware of the content of their own scriptures.
Judges 21:10-24 records mass rape and murder by the Israelites, with not a word of admonition from god.
Numbers 31:7-18 recounts Moses ordering all the women and children killed, apart fro the young virgins, who the soldiers could keep for themselves (no prizes for guessing what for)
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 explains that god approves the execution of all men and the women can be "enjoyed".

Be puzzled no more :)

It always puzzles me why people were fine in WWII to bomb cities in Germany with mass murder from the Allied forces........ wait a minute... was it really murder?

Why did God ask the Israelites to do what they did?

I would be interested in hearing your argument as to why mass murder and rape (including children) is not "evil" by your standard.

see above.

Why? Is the OT suddenly no longer a part of the Christian cannon? I must have missed that memo. However, I can understand why. I mean, who wants to have to publicly defend rape and murder?

Because Jesus is the perfect will of God for all mankind and when you have a New Will and Testament, the Old Testament is done away.

The Cross, IOV, changed everything.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
God may as well not exist for all the help humans get from Him.
This is a key issue.
Even if god does exist, for all practical purposes it's as if he doesn't so it is unreasonable and irrational to assume that he does, given all the evidence and argument against.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Be puzzled no more :)
You need to provide a reasonable explanation in order to solve the puzzle. You claimed that the Bible doesn't contain x. I showed that it does. Simply saying "it is solved" isn't actually any kind of solution.

It always puzzles me why people were fine in WWII to bomb cities in Germany with mass murder from the Allied forces........
Revenge and deterrence, simple as that (Bomber Harris said that attacks like the firestorm on Dresden were to give the German people such a kicking that they would never think of allowing it to happen again). Doesn't justify it though.

wait a minute... was it really murder?
Quite a bit of what the Allies did during WW2 would qualify as a war crime today. The area bombing of German cities for no military advantage, with the deliberate intent of causing huge civilian casualties (often in the most horrendous manner) qualifies as a war crime, and even murder in my book. How about you?

Why did God ask the Israelites to do what they did?
Revenge, conquest, oppression - the usual stuff.
Also, interesting that you have changed your position from "god never condoned rape and murder" to "god did condone rape and murder, but I believe it was justified".
So what we would normally consider "evil" is not evil if god condones it.
Sounds a lot like the Nuremberg Defence. Remind me how that went...

Because Jesus is the perfect will of God for all mankind and when you have a New Will and Testament, the Old Testament is done away.
The Cross, IOV, changed everything.
But in the OT Jesus said that he hadn't come to do away with any of the OT laws.
You have to bear in mind that Jesus was not a Christian and he did not preach from the NT.
He was a Jew preaching from the OT.
 
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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
When you have the Flu life really feels depressing. I've had the flu several times and it always sucks.

That said when I look at my life as a whole the several weeks of having the flu are small. Its hard to see it in the moment, but the pain does pass.
Are you really comparing having the flu with helplessly watching your child die in agony from a congenital condition?
Jeez, religious apologetics really does make people think like sociopaths.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Revenge and deterrence, simple as that (Bomber Harris said that attacks like the firestorm on Dresden were to give the German people such a kicking that they would never think of allowing it to happen again). Doesn't justify it though.

Nice side step unless you think it was better for the Allied forces to stand down and do nothing

Quite a bit of what the Allies did during WW2 would qualify as a war crime today. The area bombing of German cities for no military advantage, with the deliberate intent of causing huge civilian casualties (often in the most horrendous manner) qualifies as a war crime, and even murder in my book. How about you?

So values change at your whim? And you side-stepped the question because even when military advantage was there, they still killed innocent people

Me? In what way? I'm in the NT.

Revenge, conquest, oppression - the usual stuff.
Also, interesting that you have changed your position from "god never condoned rape and murder" to "god did condone rape and murder, but I believe it was justified".
So what we would normally consider "evil" is not evil if god condones it.
Sounds a lot like the Nuremberg Defence. Remind me how that went...

You haven't stated a case that it was murder or rape.

Your reasons are simply opinions.

But in the OT Jesus said that he hadn't come to do away with any of the OT laws.
You have to bear in mind that Jesus was not a Christian and he did not preach from the NT.
He was a Jew preaching from the OT.

He was THE CHRIST... we follow as CHRISTians. He finished the one and instituted the other.

Do you understand the theology of what we believe and why? It doesn't seem like it.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Please prove that fate and predestination are real things.
So you don't believe that your god infallibly knows the future, or determines events by his will and decree?
You think that stuff just happens and god has nothing to do with it, he is merely an observer of the universe doing its thang.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Did I forget to tell you that? That was a veritable nightmare but what is going on now is so much worse. :(
Everything in life is relative.
Whilst having every sympathy for whatever it is you have gone through, it is interesting to note how many people that "find spiritual truth" etc, especially in new religious belief, also suffer from difficult mental health issues. Finding some sort of coping mechanism is essential, but not all coping mechanisms are healthy, which is why we often see people going through the gamut of substance abuse, abusive relationships, self harm, etc and eventually spiritual belief (often communal) looking for some kind of manageable, non-destructive relief.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Nice side step
Where was the "side step"? I addressed your point clearly.

unless you think it was better for the Allied forces to stand down and do nothing
Yes, it would have been better for them not to firebomb Dresden simply to terrorise the civilian population. Don't you agree?

So values change at your whim?
Values change. Full stop.
Are you not familiar with history?

And you side-stepped the question because even when military advantage was there, they still killed innocent people
The issue of "collateral damage" (civilian deaths unavoidable in the context of taking out a legitimate military target) is still a difficult issue. However, you cannot compare collateral damage to the deliberate targeting of civilians with no military objective.

Interesting that you keep avoiding stating your position. Understandable, given the potential for glaring hypocrisy.

Me? In what way?
Thought it was pretty clear...
"The area bombing of German cities for no military advantage, with the deliberate intent of causing huge civilian casualties (often in the most horrendous manner) qualifies as a war crime, and even murder in my book...How about you?"

I'm in the NT.
Huh? :confused:

You haven't stated a case that it was murder or rape.
Given the hand-to-hand nature of the killing (thus excluding unintentional killing), and the fact that the passages include instructions to kill everyone (including women and children), it therefore includes non-combatants. The deliberate, hands-on killing of civilians is murder, even if it is done by soldiers acting under orders. This is a fact of law.
Similarly, having sex with captives is "rape" as their position negates the ability to provide free, informed consent.

Your reasons are simply opinions.
Nope. It's the law. Soldiers have ben convicted of murder for killing civilians in that manner.

He was THE CHRIST... we follow as CHRISTians.
"Christ" is just an anglicised translation of the Hebrew for "anointed one". It was a title applied years after his death. There have been other "anointed ones" throughout the Ancient Near East.

He finished the one and instituted the other.
That's your opinion. In the Bible, he said he didn't.
So, do you believe that everything in the OT is to be rejected as no longer applicable?

Do you understand the theology of what we believe and why? It doesn't seem like it.
Ooh, was that irony deliberate?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Where was the "side step"? I addressed your point clearly.

Yes, it would have been better for them not to firebomb Dresden simply to terrorise the civilian population. Don't you agree?

Values change. Full stop.
Are you not familiar with history?

The issue of "collateral damage" (civilian deaths unavoidable in the context of taking out a legitimate military target) is still a difficult issue. However, you cannot compare collateral damage to the deliberate targeting of civilians with no military objective.

Interesting that you keep avoiding stating your position. Understandable, given the potential for glaring hypocrisy.

Thought it was pretty clear...
"The area bombing of German cities for no military advantage, with the deliberate intent of causing huge civilian casualties (often in the most horrendous manner) qualifies as a war crime, and even murder in my book...How about you?"

Huh? :confused:

Given the hand-to-hand nature of the killing (thus excluding unintentional killing), and the fact that the passages include instructions to kill everyone (including women and children), it therefore includes non-combatants. The deliberate, hands-on killing of civilians is murder, even if it is done by soldiers acting under orders. This is a fact of law.
Similarly, having sex with captives is "rape" as their position negates the ability to provide free, informed consent.

Nope. It's the law. Soldiers have ben convicted of murder for killing civilians in that manner.

"Christ" is just an anglicised translation of the Hebrew for "anointed one". It was a title applied years after his death. There have been other "anointed ones" throughout the Ancient Near East.

That's your opinion. In the Bible, he said he didn't.
So, do you believe that everything in the OT is to be rejected as no longer applicable?

Ooh, was that irony deliberate?
Ok... apparently you haven't studied the Bible:

1) You did side-step because you had selective reasoning when you mentioned Dresden which wasn't my point. (Your point is correct - but it wasn't what I was talking about and proceeded with my point
2) It would be hypocritical to say you see hypocrisy.
3) If a civilian is doing wrong, it isn't murder (speaking of the TaNaKh) - so since you don't know why God ordered differently for different people of "why", you have no idea (other than your biased opinion) of how to judge it. -
4) "The issue of "collateral damage" (civilian deaths unavoidable in the context of taking out a legitimate military target) is still a difficult issue." EXACTLY. So go back and find out why - and even if is a legitimate military target, it is still "difficult" because, as the Jewish sages say "If you kill one person, you kill a generation.
5) Jesus said, "This is the NEW Covenant"... meaning the other covenant was being changed. EVERYTHING changed.

So, quite frankly, as horrible as it is including WWII (and it was horrible) - sometimes it is a difficult issue and required difficult decision... \

UNLESS - you want us to speak in German, have the Jews eradicated and others, and not be the perfect race that they wanted and believed in.

So... are you in favor of not killing so that those who do can continue?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
In John 8:24 Jesus states: "For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins", and later the crowd attempts to stone Jesus in response to his statement in John 8:58: "Before Abraham was, I am". Many other translations, including the American Standard Version, have rendered John 8:24 as something like "...

I am (biblical term) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › I_am_(biblical_term)


That was not Jesus saying that He was God. That was Jesus saying that He existed before Abraham was born into this world, and that is true. The soul of Jesus did exist in the spiritual world (heaven) before the body of Jesus was born into this world, and since the spiritual world has no beginning and no end that means that the soul of Jesus has always existed with God in the spiritual world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to
picture His state of being.

(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)
No one but God has always existed. No matter what your cult tells you.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
guess you’re referring to John 8:58?

The Greek verb used there, is about existence. (See John 9:9, where the former blind man said “ego eimi”) Nothing else. Jesus was saying he “existed” before Abraham.
The Jews didn't try to kill him because he merely claimed to exist.
They tried to kill him because they understood what he was saying, putting himself on the same level as God.

Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.

If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.” The Greek words translated “was,” in the case of Abraham, and “am,” in the case of Jesus, are quite different.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Physical pain comes and goes and it passes, but sometimes it is more serious than that and the person passes.
Please do not say "He is gong to a better place." Nothing could be more insensitive.

I believe in the afterlife but that does not assuage the pain of loss.
Moreover, nobody knows it will be "better"- they can only believe that.


God is able to show people things as they will be. Why can't these people know?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
No, God does not give us the opportunity to choose when we will die... All we can do is try to forestall that event.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

No, we did not accept life, our parents had sex and brought us into this world.
This presumes that our life started at birth or conception.

I like the was he puts this:
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy,
But he beholds the light, and whence it flows,
He sees it in his joy;
The Youth, who daily farther from the east
Must travel, still is Nature’s Priest,
And by the vision splendid
Is on his way attended;
At length the Man perceives it die away,
And fade into the light of common day.

~ William Wordsworth

The bible is a light on details but it does indicate that we lived prior to our mortal life, but it does offer some help on this.

John 9:
1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

For some additional detail a bit from Abraham,
Abraham 3:
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;


So before we were around as mortals we were around.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
In your football analogy, the players take risks and may learn. The coaches take risks of a different nature, and may learn. The spectators may learn from the example of their fellow humans, both good and bad...

...and a crack baby who has no capacity to learn, can't sit still, and doesn't understand what the hell football is sits in a puddle of her own urine.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately missing my point, but there are humans who do not have the capacity to learn, through no fault of their own, and no choice made. If you see those humans as sacrificial lambs, used by God to teach others a lesson, then just say it. I wouldn't worship such a being, but I don't believe he exists anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.

But...harking back to my original point...there is pain and suffering on Earth which does NOT serve a purpose in terms of growth and learning. Suggesting all pain helps us grow is trite. So...imho...is using an arms length and controlled example like a football game.


I think I have a different perspective. In order for us to have a situation where we can really learn there must be the option for some bad stuff to happen. The point is that the game will end. The players can go home. Those who through no fault of their own got the shaft will be just fine.


Alma 40:
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

Even if in this life it is short and it is painful. God has them covered in the long run. Years back a young child needed major usury in order to fix a severe deformity. His parents got the surgery.It hurt a lot. From a narrow point of view we might think the parents cruel. However in the long run despite the many weeks of pain the ability for this child to live a long and healthy life makes that short term pain seem like a bargain compared the horrible alternatives.

If we only look at mortal life it is most unfair. If we just glimpse into eternity. The problems are not so bad.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So, I can say you “believe that God is the source of some evil.”
But religious beliefs need to be backed up by their respective Holy Books. And then the books themselves need to be scrutinized.
No, I do not believe that God is the source of ANY evil, as evil is all caused by man.

As for evil, evil is acts committed by man because man does not adhere to God's Laws.
Below is what my scriptures say about evil.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand. Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150


I believe God is the source of 'some' of the suffering of man, suffering that man does not bring about by his own choices and actions, but God does send trial to us in order to test our faithfulness.
This is supported by the Baha'i scriptures as well as the Bible.

Below is one thing that my scriptures say but much more is written about suffering.

“God alone ordereth all things and is all-powerful. Why then does He send trials to His servants?

The trials of man are of two kinds. (a) The consequences of his own actions. If a man eats too much, he ruins his digestion; if he takes poison he becomes 50 ill or dies. If a person gambles he will lose his money; if he drinks too much he will lose his equilibrium. All these sufferings are caused by the man himself, it is quite clear therefore that certain sorrows are the result of our own deeds. (b) Other sufferings there are, which come upon the Faithful of God. Consider the great sorrows endured by Christ and by His apostles!”
Paris Talks, pp. 49-50
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
This is a key issue.
Even if god does exist, for all practical purposes it's as if he doesn't so it is unreasonable and irrational to assume that he does, given all the evidence and argument against.
Firstly, we cannot assume that if God existed God would be a personal God who helps us. God could just as well be a deist God.

If we believe in the theist God, the personal God, and are waiting for help from God it might be as if God does not exist when we do not get help, but that does not mean that God does not exist. It simply means we won't 'always' get the help we want. Read this carefully.

“Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 133

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...:eek:
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Erm, that is one of the basic rules of football. It is a non-contact sport.

Those don't involve injury.

Kinda subjective. I know people who don't like Shakespeare. And where do you stand on Beckett?

No idea where you are going with this.

That's quite the non sequitur. Care to explain?

Nope, lost me again.

You are making the mistake of assuming that everyone thinks the way you do. People regularly donate kidneys for no money at all.

I didn't give god my consent for anything. If I had been consulted, I would have had more than a few issues to raise.
And why did god make it so high risk and unfair when there was no need?

And many people much of their lives trying to mitigate the damage done by god. Ironically, they are often people who don't believe in him. But I guess it is easier to shrug and say "Meh, it's god's will" than to actually do something about it.

Football is only interesting if there is challenge. Challenge means some risk. Life has a lot of challenge and risk. This also means there is a lot of room to grow and learn.

I find no benefit in trying to blame God for what others do.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Whilst having every sympathy for whatever it is you have gone through, it is interesting to note how many people that "find spiritual truth" etc, especially in new religious belief, also suffer from difficult mental health issues. Finding some sort of coping mechanism is essential, but not all coping mechanisms are healthy, which is why we often see people going through the gamut of substance abuse, abusive relationships, self harm, etc and eventually spiritual belief (often communal) looking for some kind of manageable, non-destructive relief.
I have no mental health issues and religion is not how I cope with difficulties. The first thing I do is try to problem solve and research every avenue that might help resolve the issue.

When desperate, I do turn to God and cry out for help, that perchance I might get help, but mostly I try to cope all by myself, or if I need to I turn to kind and caring people who understand

When believers say "he is going to a better place" I hang up the phone. NOTHING could be more idiotic and insensitive.
 
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