Questions that believers cannot answer

[Trailblazer]

Jesus is and was God incarnate.

Jesus is and was a Manifestation of God.

God cannot become a man because God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. We know Jesus was not God because Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. God sent Jesus and Jesus manifested God in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.

The divine perfections were manifested in Jesus. That means that Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, Jesus was the divine appearance. The perfections of God are the divine appearance.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

 

[Truth in love]

I also believe that but it really does not help me much when the losses are just too overwhelming.

When you have the Flu life really feels depressing. I've had the flu several times and it always sucks.

That said when I look at my life as a whole the several weeks of having the flu are small. Its hard to see it in the moment, but the pain does pass.

 

[Truth in love]

I agree that mortal life is a high risk short term learning experience and it is very unfair in the short term.
However, I disagree that we gave God our consent for anything. God does whatever He chooses to do and we have nothing to say about it.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

God does call the shots. He also gives us the ability to choose. He offered us life. Those who are here accepted that offer knowing the risks.

 

[Trailblazer]

When you have the Flu life really feels depressing. I've had the flu several times and it always sucks.

That said when I look at my life as a whole the several weeks of having the flu are small. Its hard to see it in the moment, but the pain does pass.

Physical pain comes and goes and it passes, but sometimes it is more serious than that and the person passes.
Please do not say "He is gong to a better place." Nothing could be more insensitive.

I believe in the afterlife but that does not assuage the pain of loss.
Moreover, nobody knows it will be "better"- they can only believe that.

 

[Trailblazer]

God does call the shots. He also gives us the ability to choose. He offered us life. Those who are here accepted that offer knowing the risks.

No, God does not give us the opportunity to choose when we will die... All we can do is try to forestall that event.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

No, we did not accept life, our parents had sex and brought us into this world.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Lets play game of football. To ensure that no one gets hurt we won't actually have any contact, running or passing. Also to prevent any hurt feelings there won't be any good plays or bad ones. no scores kept no celebrating achievement, no choices to be made, no skill to develop, no outcome to be determined.
I'm guessing this is sounding pretty boring. The only way to have achievement and growth is for there to be risk. Now in life there are some pretty major opportunities for love and hate, good and evil.
However in the grand scheme of the eternities it is brief.

I'm guessing that if I offered you $10 for a kidney you say no. On the other hand @ $50,000,000,000 and you'd be tripping over yourself to sign the contract. Mortal life is a high risk short term learning experience and it is very unfair in the short term. However we gave God our consent to come knowing the risks and its on us to try to reduce suffering even when its far beyond us to end it all,

In your football analogy, the players take risks and may learn. The coaches take risks of a different nature, and may learn. The spectators may learn from the example of their fellow humans, both good and bad...

...and a crack baby who has no capacity to learn, can't sit still, and doesn't understand what the hell football is sits in a puddle of her own urine.

I'm not sure if you're deliberately missing my point, but there are humans who do not have the capacity to learn, through no fault of their own, and no choice made. If you see those humans as sacrificial lambs, used by God to teach others a lesson, then just say it. I wouldn't worship such a being, but I don't believe he exists anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.

But...harking back to my original point...there is pain and suffering on Earth which does NOT serve a purpose in terms of growth and learning. Suggesting all pain helps us grow is trite. So...imho...is using an arms length and controlled example like a football game.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know you go through suffering @Trailblazer and i know you care about others who are suffering in this life, dont get me wrong, i understand you experiences a lot and deeply care for others.

My own suffering are in the past, so i don't think about it anymore, but as i said in an other thread, I have been to hell but clawed my way back to where i am now, i know what suffering is and what it can do to people.

Every day i spend my own money to help others, i use most of my spare time to help others, be it online or offline. I live with constant pain in my body but use very little pain killers due to a damaged liver.

But honestly i do not blame God for my suffering, if i had not had my spiritual life and current belief in God, i had ended my life multiple times already. But i have so much good to live for in my life.
Life is pain and suffering but one can overcome it one way an other i believe.

I think you are operating under the mistaken assumption that I am blaming God. I used to blame God but that was many years ago, and the reason I blamed god was because a Baha'i who did not know his *** from a hole in the ground told me that God was punishing me. I could not figure out what I had done to be punished for, so for many years I hated God, and only later did I join the Planet Baha'i forum and start to understand what Baha'u'llah really taught. My friend @Truthseeker knows the whole story.

This thread was not about blaming God, it was about questioning whether God is loving and just, given all the suffering we see in the world, the suffering that is not by free will choice.

At the end of the day the only way we can know 'anything' about God is through scriptures and of course Baha'u'llah wrote that God is loving and just. However, I question that because of all the suffering in the world and the fact that suffering is so unevenly distributed.

But that is just how my mind operates. I think logically rather than on faith. People either accept that God is loving and just based upon scriptures and their own life experiences or they question it. I do not think God is going to judge me for questioning, and if He did He would not be loving.

Like you, if I had not had my spiritual life and belief in God and Baha'u'llah, I would have ended my life multiple times already. My last suicide attempt was in June 2014 and I have come a long way since then. I have had suicidal ideation since then but I have always been able to work through it.

My husband had to call 911 in June 2014 and two deputy sheriffs rushed to the house. They talked to me and then I relinquished the bottle of pills.

The police report reads as follows:
"She said she would not kill herself because she believes in God." That is what I told them.
I also would not kill myself because my husband depends upon me for everything as do the cats, so it would have been selfish to kill myself.

I am sorry you have to live with so much pain. I have never had physical pain, all my pain has been emotional. I have much to be grateful for and if I had only myself to think about I could be very happy, but I also have my husband to think about and I cannot not care what happens to him. That is just who I am.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not sure if you're deliberately missing my point, but there are humans who do not have the capacity to learn, through no fault of their own, and no choice made. If you see those humans as sacrificial lambs, used by God to teach others a lesson, then just say it. I wouldn't worship such a being, but I don't believe he exists anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter.

But...harking back to my original point...there is pain and suffering on Earth which does NOT serve a purpose in terms of growth and learning. Suggesting all pain helps us grow is trite. So...imho...is using an arms length and controlled example like a football game.

Well said.
Innocent people who suffer through no fault of their own just to teach others a lesson are what I call collateral damage. I cannot help but conclude that God does not care about collateral damage because that is how my mind works, logically.

I still believe in God, but I do not worship Him, and I know He understands why, since God is all-knowing. But God does not need my worship so I am not hurting God by withholding worship.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Jesus is and was a Manifestation of God.

God cannot become a man because God is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. We know Jesus was not God because Jesus said that no man has seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

God can never be known except through Manifestations of God which are sent by God. God sent Jesus and Jesus manifested God in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God.

The divine perfections were manifested in Jesus. That means that Jesus was like a clear mirror and the divine perfections were visible and apparent in this mirror. Therefore, Jesus was the divine appearance. The perfections of God are the divine appearance.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word refers to the divine perfections that appeared in Jesus Christ, and these perfections were with God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

When God sent Jesus, God was “manifested” in the flesh and Jesus dwelt among us. God did not become flesh, but rather the divine perfections of God were manifested in Jesus who came in the flesh and revealed the Word of God to humanity.

I'm not going to get into this. You aren't interested in the truth, sadly. You will never understand God's love until you understand Jesus is God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not going to get into this. You aren't interested in the truth, sadly. You will never understand God's love until you understand Jesus is God.

Well, that is not logical because all the other Baha'is understand God's love and they do not believe that Jesus is God.

Jesus never claimed to be God, not ONCE in the entire NT.

Jesus is not God Bible verses

That Jesus is God is a Christian belief that some (but not all) Christians hold based upon a misinterpretation of scripture.

You believe it because it is a Church doctrine, not because Jesus ever claimed to be God.

Not all Christians believe that Jesus is God despite reading the same scripture and that means there are other interpretations of scripture.

If Jesus is God how do you explain this verse? It is well-known that many people SAW Jesus.
Was Jesus in His own bosom?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You believe it because it is a Church doctrine, not because Jesus ever claimed to be God.

Yes he did. He literally said he was I AM.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

Please prove that fate and predestination are real things.

 

[Thrillobyte]

God is a deist. His track record proves that every second of the day. He probably doesn't even know we're here and even if he did he couldn't care less about us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes he did. He literally said he was I AM.

In John 8:24 Jesus states: "For unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins", and later the crowd attempts to stone Jesus in response to his statement in John 8:58: "Before Abraham was, I am". Many other translations, including the American Standard Version, have rendered John 8:24 as something like "...

I am (biblical term) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › I_am_(biblical_term)

That was not Jesus saying that He was God. That was Jesus saying that He existed before Abraham was born into this world, and that is true. The soul of Jesus did exist in the spiritual world (heaven) before the body of Jesus was born into this world, and since the spiritual world has no beginning and no end that means that the soul of Jesus has always existed with God in the spiritual world.

(96) PRE-EXISTENCE - of Prophets

The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent. The soul of Christ existed in the spiritual world before His birth in this world. We cannot imagine what that world is like, so words are inadequate to
picture His state of being.
(Shoghi Effendi: High Endeavors, Page: 71)

 

[Trailblazer]

Please prove that fate and predestination are real things.

Please prove that they aren't.
You can no more prove that they are not real things than I can prove that they are.
Such is the nature of religious beliefs.

 

[Truthseeker]

My husband had to call 911 in June 2014 and two deputy sheriffs rushed to the house. They talked to me and then I relinquished the bottle of pills.

The police report reads as follows:
"She said she would not kill herself because she believes in God." That is what I told them.
I also would not kill myself because my husband depends upon me for everything as do the cats, so it would have been selfish to kill myself.

I don't remember that detail of sheriff rushing to your house, and you relinquishing pills!

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't remember that detail of sheriff rushing to your house, and you relinquishing pills!

Did I forget to tell you that? That was a veritable nightmare but what is going on now is so much worse.
Everything in life is relative.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yes he did. He literally said he was I AM.

I guess you’re referring to John 8:58?

The Greek verb used there, is about existence. (See John 9:9, where the former blind man said “ego eimi”) Nothing else. Jesus was saying he “existed” before Abraham.

Some translations already reflect this.

Please prove that they aren't.
You can no more prove that they are not real things than I can prove that they are.
Such is the nature of religious beliefs.

So, I can say you “believe that God is the source of some evil.”
But religious beliefs need to be backed up by their respective Holy Books. And then the books themselves need to be scrutinized.

And I supported my statement, showing from examples in the Scriptures. (Bible.)

Like Jehovah trying to reason with Cain. (That would’ve been in vain - and God would have known that, to not even try - if Cain murdering Abel was predestined.)

That was just one example.
The Ninevites changing their behavior in the book of Jonah, thus changing God’s mind, is another.

i sure wish we could have some in-depth discussions about the Bible. I’m not a good writer, I do much better speaking. Sometimes I give public talks….then I’m in my element. I can’t express my thoughts as well when I’m writing, though.
.

Good night (or good morning, I guess.) Take care.

 

[KWED]

could you please support your statement with a scriptural reference?

It always puzzles me when religionists seem unaware of the content of their own scriptures.
Judges 21:10-24 records mass rape and murder by the Israelites, with not a word of admonition from god.
Numbers 31:7-18 recounts Moses ordering all the women and children killed, apart fro the young virgins, who the soldiers could keep for themselves (no prizes for guessing what for)
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 explains that god approves the execution of all men and the women can be "enjoyed".

And is "evil" in your perspective according to your standard?

I would be interested in hearing your argument as to why mass murder and rape (including children) is not "evil" by your standard.

And please support it in light of the New Testament.

Why? Is the OT suddenly no longer a part of the Christian cannon? I must have missed that memo. However, I can understand why. I mean, who wants to have to publicly defend rape and murder?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Wow! Your post here is really enlightening! I’m so sorry you’ve experienced these things.

I do not think God is going to judge me for questioning,

No, you’re right, He won’t.

There was a Hebrew prophet who asked similar questions. (Habakkuk 1:2-4)
We wouldn’t know this, if Jehovah God hadn’t had this recorded in His Word.
What does that tell us? That He is very open, and candid.