Questions that believers cannot answer

[Sheldon]

Lets play game of football. To ensure that no one gets hurt we won't actually have any contact, running or passing. Also to prevent any hurt feelings there won't be any good plays or bad ones. no scores kept no celebrating achievement, no choices to be made, no skill to develop, no outcome to be determined.
I'm guessing this is sounding pretty boring. The only way to have achievement and growth is for there to be risk. Now in life there are some pretty major opportunities for love and hate, good and evil.
However in the grand scheme of the eternities it is brief.

I'm guessing that if I offered you $10 for a kidney you say no. On the other hand @ $50,000,000,000 and you'd be tripping over yourself to sign the contract. Mortal life is a high risk short term learning experience and it is very unfair in the short term. However we gave God our consent to come knowing the risks and its on us to try to reduce suffering even when its far beyond us to end it all,

You seem to be ignoring that this imagined deity has omniscience and omnipotence, it would not be limited in its choices at all, let alone as limited as evolved primates are.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Satan is a term used for "enemy" and not isolated to a single being, person, or entity. Satan is an enemy, whether an enemy to evil or an enemy to good. As with Job, an enemy tested him and his faith. The same if often true for us. We are tested by our enemies. With that said, no one is exempt from being tested by an enemy. We are tested daily, our resolve, our hopes, our dreams, our standing as citizens, our friendships, marriages, family life, our jobs, churches, places of recreation, etc. no one is exempt from being tested by an enemy.
Jesus and those who follow him are no more or less tested than anyone else, but Jesus did understand that his followers would be - tested. He understood, as he was being taken away to be crucified that his disciples would likely face similar fates, given the common practices of that era and culture. I like the way the resurrection of the dead was illustrated in the new- testament, using seeds as a way to illustrate the point. From corruption or from our temporal finite flesh bodies comes the resurrection into new spiritual and incorruptible bodies as new creations. Here we are dying in the flesh, but after it is taught that we become spiritual bodies, even as Jesus became a spiritual body.....-

Outside of Christians, who are hated for doing what Jesus instructed to do at Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8 ________
Sure ALL (includes atheists, etc.) suffer, but they do Not suffer for doing the 'spiritual work' of Matthew 24:13-14.
Christians tested not only because of physical sickness but for doing the 'spiritual work' Jesus said to do.
Also, fake 'weed/tares' Christians teach lies as being Scripture when Not really Scripture - Matthew 15:9

Because pre-human heavenly Jesus had a spirit body is why God resurrected dead Jesus back to his spirit body.
Adam never had a spirit body. Adam was never offered Heaven. Adam was offered 'everlasting physical life' on Earth.
When Jesus referred to Psalms 37:9-11 at Matthew 5:5 it was about people living on Earth, inheriting Earth.
The figurative 'sheep' at the time of separation coming upon Earth, (see Matthew 25:31-34,37) the 'sheep' are alive on Earth. They can remain alive on Earth and be here on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years with the opportunity to enjoy life forever on Earth.
A beautiful paradisical Earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
So, besides only some resurrected to Heaven - see Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 20:6; 2:10; 5:9-10 - the majority of mankind have the opportunity to have a healthy physical resurrection and to be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You think mass murder can be reduced to simple maths? Again I have to disagree.

From a purely logical point of view it can.

I think you missed the point entirely.

You know full well that good and evil are arbitrary unless there's some kind of universal standard.
You will never get all people to agree on what the terms even mean.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....Truth is, nobody gets through life unscathed.

Unlike the world, a genuine 'wheat' Christians has the added responsibility to tell others about the good news of God's Kingdom coming (thy kingdom come...) and the world wants to silence Matthew 24:13-14; 10:22; Acts 1:8.
Because of the message is why 'wheat' Christians are hated by the world - Matthew 24:9; Luke 21:17; John 15:21.
Many who call Jesus as Lord is mostly in name only - Matthew 7:21-23

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If YOU were the one suffering the way I have and am right now, maybe you would understand. As Ed said, others cannot understand until you have walked in my moccasins.

According to the Bible God understands and invites you to throw your troubles on Him - 1 Peter 5:7; Psalms 55:22

 

[Trailblazer]

This is what you said….

If I thought that, I’d believe He was evil. I’d be as depressed as you seem to be.

You are projecting. I am not you, so I do not believe that God is evil just because bad things happen to people for which God is responsible. I am just trying to get people to admit that is the case.

Surely, if God created a world in which He knew bad things would happen, and if humans are not responsible for all of those things, and God is in control of our fate, then God is responsible for these bad things. By bad things I mean all the suffering in the world. You can try to turn human suffering into something that is good by using religious apologetics, but suffering IS suffering, and nobody but a brainwashed religious person would cal suffering good.

Fortunately, from what I’ve been taught, I know God to be loving. Like the Apostle John I quoted yesterday.

You have been taught that but you don't know that. You believe that. Nobody knows that God is loving. In fact, nobody even knows that God exists, they simply believe that.

There’s a reason explained in the Bible why Jehovah God doesn’t intervene right now.

Interesting that you ask questions — “If God is loving, why…? If God is just, why….? — but you don’t want to discuss the answers.

What are you looking for? What do you want?[/QUOTE]
What answers? Nobody has given me any answers, all they offer is religious apologetics.

I do not expect God to intervene every time someone is suffering, as that would upset the whole order in this world, which God designed. God wants us to suffer and that is why God created a world in which we would suffer, so why would God intervene to stop that suffering?

You do not know why God does not intervene. You just 'believe you know' based on some Bible verses you 'believe' you are interpreting correctly.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.....You know full well that good and evil are arbitrary unless there's some kind of universal standard. You will never get all people to agree on what the terms even mean.

I like the way you say 'universal standard'.
Under the Mosaic Law Israel had the kingly Law, the royal law, so to speak of the Golden Rule - Leviticus 19:18
Under Christ is His 'universal standard', so to speak, found at John 13:34-35.
To love others as Jesus loves us. Have self-sacrificing love of neighbor as Jesus has.
In other words, the standard for all is to Now love neighbor MORE than self, more than the Golden Rule.
At the soon coming 'time of separation' on Earth those who disagree with Jesus' terms, his standard, they will No longer be around to ruin the good.
- Matthew 25:31-34,37; Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15

 

[Trailblazer]

According to the Bible God understands and invites you to throw your troubles on Him - 1 Peter 5:7; Psalms 55:22

So what? What good is it going to do if you throw your troubles on God?
God is not going to do anything about those troubles...

God is nowhere to be seen or heard, except in your head.
I am not saying that God does not exist, I believe God exists, but God may as well not exist for all the help humans get from Him.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So what? What good is it going to do if you throw your troubles on God? God is not going to do anything about those troubles...
God is nowhere to be seen or heard, except in your head.
I am not saying that God does not exist, I believe God exists, but God may as well not exist for all the help humans get from Him.

Many feel as you do. To me God is seen/heard in Creation. We get nature from God. Earth a loving home for you to enjoy.
True, the wicked bring ruin to Earth, but God will bring ruin to those ruining the Earth as promised at Revelation 11:18 B.
We're challenged by Satan that under adverse conditions we would Not serve God.
The man Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we - Job 2:4-5.
God is seen, and 'so to speak' heard, in the pages of His Bible.
God's people are also visibly seen and heard world wide.
No one, no bans, have ever been able to get rid of God's visible people and never will.
The passing of time has allowed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.
We are now nearing the 'time' of separation on Earth when Jesus will take action - Matthew 25:31-33-34,37
God will help those who love Him come through these last days of badness on Earth (2 Timothy 3:1-5,13)
We can be safe through the coming great tribulation - Revelation 7:14,9; Isaiah 26:20.
And as for most of the the dead there is Resurrection Day (Acts 24:15) when both the righteous and unrighteous will have the opportunity to enjoy life forever on a beautiful paradisical Earth as Jesus promised for humble people .
- Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11
Our former troubles will be forgotten - Isaiah 65:16 - under Christ's coming thousand-year reign over Earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

@Trailblazer since you can say

Then all of this IS ABOUT YOUR SUFFERING.
You are projecting your own suffering in your life, but that is ok you need a place to get it out of you.

You are totally out of line. Sure I have suffering, but that does not mean this IS ABOUT MY SUFFERING.

I am not so illogical and self-centered to believe I am the only person in this world who is suffering.

Wake up and smell the coffee. There are millions of people like me who are suffering all over the world. I am might be suffering but I also have compassion for other people who are suffering.

You cannot possibly imagine how much I have suffered or how and why I am suffering now. Only God knows how much I am suffering and why, and other people I have confided in know why I am suffering. Other people who are suffering for the same reason understand how I feel and if they are decent human beings they have compassion, never judgment.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158

Nonbelievers don't judge me for my suffering, they have compassion. It is only 'some' believers who judge me in order to retain their belief in a loving God, but guess what? God does not need anyone to 'believe' He is loving since God has no needs. You and others who believe that God is loving believe that God is loving because they need to believe that for themselves. They believe that all for their own benefit and they are not helping anyone else simply by holding that belief. Then they have the nerve to call me selfish when they are the ones who are selfish.

God does not need anyone's belief. It is human beings who need other human beings in times of crisis. Instead, what we often get from believers is judgment because their beliefs are more important than other human beings.

As I said to @Truthseeker, I hope to God you never have to go through what I am going through now.

 

[Trailblazer]

Dying for all of humanity is pretty darn loving.

Go did not die for all of humanity, Jesus did.
I do not question whether Jesus was loving. I believe that Jesus was loving

 

[Trailblazer]

So we agree that god is a bit of a twat.

I am in no place to judge God, I only make certain observations.
I agree that God could have designed this world differently such that there would have been less suffering.
The logical conclusion I come to is that God wanted humans to suffer...
What people conclude from that is entirely their own business.

So even in this universe, pain and suffering are not necessary.

Pain and suffering might not have been necessary if God had created this world and humans differently.
If God is omnipotent an omniscient then God could have done that.
The logical conclusion is that God wanted humans to suffer.

What people conclude from that is entirely their own business.
They can use scriptures to protect their belief that God is loving if they want to, or they can use their rational minds to question why a loving God would intentionally create a world that is a storehouse of suffering.

Of course, if they have never really suffered, and if they don't care about all the millions of people who suffer every day, they might not even think about it at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

We all run risks of some harm in life. One of the many comforting promises from God is that He will compensate us for unjust losses.

I also believe that but it really does not help me much when the losses are just too overwhelming.

 

[Trailblazer]

Mortal life is a high risk short term learning experience and it is very unfair in the short term. However we gave God our consent to come knowing the risks and its on us to try to reduce suffering even when its far beyond us to end it all,

I agree that mortal life is a high risk short term learning experience and it is very unfair in the short term.
However, I disagree that we gave God our consent for anything. God does whatever He chooses to do and we have nothing to say about it.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.....There’s a reason explained in the Bible why Jehovah God doesn’t intervene right now.
I do not expect God to intervene every time someone is suffering, as that would upset the whole order in this world, which God designed. God wants us to suffer and that is why God created a world in which we would suffer, so why would God intervene to stop that suffering?
You do not know why God does not intervene. You just 'believe you know' based on some Bible verses you 'believe' you are interpreting correctly.

To which God/god ___________
The 'god' of this world of badness (aka Satan 2 Cor. 4:4) wants us to suffer, Not the God (YHWH) of the Bible.
Once Earth is populated as Jehovah God said at Genesis 1:28 that is a reason to intervene and stop suffering.
What is to interpret but to plainly read at Job 2:4-5 that Satan challenged Job.
The challenge is that under suffering conditions we would Not serve God.
In the Bible we find that both Job and Jesus under suffering conditions proved faithful to God.
Jehovah rescued both Job and Jesus, and through Jesus will bring HEALING to earth's nations - Revelation 22:2

 

[Trailblazer]

The challenge is that under suffering conditions we would Not serve God.

Then I guess I have met the challenge.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I agree that mortal life is a high risk short term learning experience and it is very unfair in the short term.
However, I disagree that we gave God our consent for anything. God does whatever He chooses to do and we have nothing to say about it...................

But on Resurrection Day (meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years) all will be fair.
There 'will be' the resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The righteous can remain righteous and the unrighteous can become righteous.
In the Bible, God did give Satan consent in the Bible book of Job.
Sinner Satan challenges that under suffering conditions we would turn away from God.
Our say about ^ it ^ can be the same say that both Job and Jesus gave.
Under adverse conditions we will choose to be faithful to God.
Enjoy Life Forever will be the final outcome

 

[Trailblazer]

But on Resurrection Day (meaning Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years) all will be fair.
There 'will be' the resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
The righteous can remain righteous and the unrighteous can become righteous.
In the Bible, God did give Satan consent in the Bible book of Job.
Sinner Satan challenges that under suffering conditions we would turn away from God.
Our say about ^ it ^ can be the same say that both Job and Jesus gave.
Under adverse conditions we will choose to be faithful to God.
Enjoy Life Forever will be the final outcome

I believe that Resurrection Day has already occurred.
The Great Resurrection

I believe that Enjoy Life Forever will be the final outcome, but it will not be that way for everyone and it will not be a physical life and it will not be on this Earth. It will be in Heaven.

“Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

 

[Wildswanderer]

Go did not die for all of humanity, Jesus did.
I do not question whether Jesus was loving. I believe that Jesus was loving

Jesus is and was God incarnate.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You are totally out of line. Sure I have suffering, but that does not mean this IS ABOUT MY SUFFERING.

I am not so illogical and self-centered to believe I am the only person in this world who is suffering.

Wake up and smell the coffee. There are millions of people like me who are suffering all over the world. I am might be suffering but I also have compassion for other people who are suffering.

You cannot possibly imagine how much I have suffered or how and why I am suffering now. Only God knows how much I am suffering and why, and other people I have confided in know why I am suffering. Other people who are suffering for the same reason understand how I feel and if they are decent human beings they have compassion, never judgment.

“O ye beloved of the Lord! The Kingdom of God is founded upon equity and justice, and also upon mercy, compassion, and kindness to every living soul. Strive ye then with all your heart to treat compassionately all humankind.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 158

Nonbelievers don't judge me for my suffering, they have compassion. It is only 'some' believers who judge me in order to retain their belief in a loving God, but guess what? God does not need anyone to 'believe' He is loving since God has no needs. You and others who believe that God is loving believe that God is loving because they need to believe that for themselves. They believe that all for their own benefit and they are not helping anyone else simply by holding that belief. Then they have the nerve to call me selfish when they are the ones who are selfish.

God does not need anyone's belief. It is human beings who need other human beings in times of crisis. Instead, what we often get from believers is judgment because their beliefs are more important than other human beings.

As I said to @Truthseeker, I hope to God you never have to go through what I am going through now.

I know you go through suffering @Trailblazer and i know you care about others who are suffering in this life, dont get me wrong, i understand you experiences a lot and deeply care for others.

My own suffering are in the past, so i don't think about it anymore, but as i said in an other thread, I have been to hell but clawed my way back to where i am now, i know what suffering is and what it can do to people.

Every day i spend my own money to help others, i use most of my spare time to help others, be it online or offline. I live with constant pain in my body but use very little pain killers due to a damaged liver.

But honestly i do not blame God for my suffering, if i had not had my spiritual life and current belief in God, i had ended my life multiple times already. But i have so much good to live for in my life.
Life is pain and suffering but one can overcome it one way an other i believe.