Questions that believers cannot answer

[Kenny]

I will consider it an honest answer if you answer honestly, but I might also consider it apologetics.

Why would what you cited that I said above be apologetics?
Maybe you need to define apologetics from your perspective...

The way I define apologetics in the context of my questions that cannot be answered, as stated in the OP, is making excuses/rationalizing why there is so much suffering in the world if God is loving and why the suffering is so unequally distributed if God is just (fair).

OK... I'll give it a shot/

 

[Trailblazer]

Excellent answer

But it did not address what the OP is about, as I just said.
I think some people misunderstand my intentions. Please see what I just said above.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But it did not address what the OP is about, as I just said.
I think some people misunderstand my intentions. Please see what I just said above.

Honestly, i think you recieved many good answers from believers in your OP.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course there's bad in the world... and biblically the bad happens because of sin.
God allows them for now. I don't have a problem with that.

No, all the bad in the world does not happen because of sin. That is overly simplistic and untrue. Moreover, it is not biblical, but rather it is a man-made Christian doctrine.

Some of the bad owing to human free will choices to sin happens because of sin, but other things that happen to people are not a choice so they cannot be because someone chose to sin. this is logic 101 stuff. I thought I made that clear in my OP but here it is again.

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

 

[Trailblazer]

Honestly, i think you recieved many good answers from believers in your OP.

Do you mean good answers TO my OP?
What were those answers?

Other than what scriptures say, what reason do we have to believe that God is loving and just?
An answer to that that makes logical sense would be an answer.
"I have faith that God is loving and just" is not a reasoned answer.

 

[Trailblazer]

What did you learn from 6,372,638 deaths and 560,401,709 infections (that does not include the unreported) due to Covid-19? What about Monkey-pox now?
COVID Live - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

That is called reasoning, but most believers are unable to do that because that would call into question their 'belief' in a loving God.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Do you mean good answers TO my OP?
What were those answers?

Other than what scriptures say, what reason do we have to believe that God is loving and just?
An answer to that that makes logical sense would be an answer.
"I have faith that God is loving and just" is not a reasoned answer.

In my experience, God has been loving and just in my life when i ask for guidance, that i experience suffering both in my life, and see it in other peoples life does not mean God is unkind and un-just.

It means humans are tested (in my understanding) tested in faith.

 

[We Never Know]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

I'm not religious but......

Maybe it wasn't that way at first but all changed after the forbidden fruit was eaten.
They got kicked out of the garden where they were protected and then they knew hurt, pain, anger, dishonesty, evil, death etc. Since then god has just watched without interfering while we experience the consequences of human choices.

 

[Trailblazer]

You address "believers," but what does that actually mean? Everyone believes in something, and atheists are no exception. I imagine there's atheists who don't believe mankind has a future, and then there's others who do. Your other questions probably aren't fitting for Christians, whom I assume you are targeting, but if you care to look at the Tao, then you'll learn the answer to your question one, and more. You obviously obviously don't know the answer, so I'll give you a brief and probably flawed explanation, and with all due respect, 'flawed' fits your unclear questioning.

Roughly then, from the Tao: life comes to the lands of mortality to learn, to be purified something like the process of purifying gold. Life involves suffering, and the types of suffering are numbered, and the stories of tragedies, often Shakespearean can take you though suffering without properly experiencing it personally. Certainly a God, or something, or groups, set up the mortal world. I'm not a Taoist but their teachings are very in-depth, and would assist you.

Latterly in your post, you've done a good job of explanations about the mortal world's laws and so on. However, as I inclined about you aiming your questions at Christians... I'm only presuming your question goes beyond Christians. I think what you ask is information that Christians don't really want, but they take what they have on faith. I admire that they have that kind of faith. Probably that kind of faith is immensely superior to atheistic faith, because just like belief, everyone has faith in something. Their machines, their spouses, whatever...

You are correct that I was aiming this at Christians or any of the other religions that teach that God is loving and just.

In short, I am asking that if God is loving why is there so much suffering in the world, particularly the suffering that is not due to human free will choices. I was also asking why some people suffer so much more than others.

I am not saying as some people on this thread seem to think, that there should be no suffering at all, that we should live in a paradise free of suffering. There will always be suffering in a material world, that is unavoidable, but if God created this material world then God is responsible for the suffering that we do not bring on by our own free will choices. This is basic logic.

Christians and others who 'believe' that God is loving and just are entitled to believe that, but I cannot believe something that does not make sense to me just because it feels good emotionally. Because I am a logical thinker, not a faith-based thinker, I can only believe what I can accommodate in my mind.

I am probably closely aligned with Taoist beliefs, but I am a Baha'i, so I have a Abrahamic religion. I am find with all the Baha'i beliefs but I call into question whether God is loving and just because what I see in this world seems to contradict that. As a Baha'i, I have a right to question, as we are told to study our scriptures and question what we believe rather than blindly following it like most Christians follow the Bible.

Is it better to be an atheist who looks at reality and sees it for what it is or to be a believer who just believes on faith even if what they believe makes no sense? That is a personal decision but a moot point for me because I believe that God exists, so I have to somehow make peace with God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually, by what the Bible tells, that what God created was good. Later people rejected God and were expelled to this first death where we can learn to know what good and evil truly means.

I agree that what God created was good and that later people rejected God and that caused suffering, but that does not account for all the suffering in this world. If it did, then people who do not reject God would never suffer, and such is not the case. People suffer through no fault of their own because that was fated by God and this material world is a storehouse of suffering.

People can learn and grow spiritually from suffering, but not all people do, some just suffer, and even if they do learn and grow, it is stiff suffering. I call into question how a loving God who is all-knowing could create a world like this, knowing how much people would suffer. i guess I am just too compassionate to believe tat.

I think this is like Matrix, virtual reality where many evil things can be experienced, but I think this is just a lesson world, not real life.

I agree with that. This material world is not the real world, but unfortunately we have to live through it before we to get to the real world.

 

[Trailblazer]

In my experience, God has been loving and just in my life when i ask for guidance, that i experience suffering both in my life, and see it in other peoples life does not mean God is unkind and un-just.

In your experience, but what about the experiences of everyone else in the world?
Do you think it can be determined that God is loving and just by one person's experience or even the experiences of many people who experience what you do?

Certainly not all people in the world experience what you do and I an an Advocate for people who suffer through no fault of their own. I cannot help that is who I am, I am going to care about those people rather than judging them and saying it is their own fault they suffer because if they did x they would not suffer. I cannot imagine anything more cruel.

It means humans are tested (in my understanding) tested in faith.

I agree about the testing, but that is besides the point I was making in my OP, whether God is loving and just.

Why would a loving and just God have to torture people just so they can prove to God they can still have faith? Some people can endure the suffering but other people can't, and it is not necessarily their fault. All people do not have the same capacities.

 

[Spirit of Light]

In your experience, but what about the experiences of everyone else in the world?
Do you think it can be determined that God is loving and just by one person's experience or even the experiences of many people who experience what you do?

Certainly not all people in the world experience what you do and I an an Advocate for people who suffer through no fault of their own. I cannot help that is who I am, I am going to care about those people rather than judging them and saying it is their own fault they suffer because if they did x they would not suffer. I cannot imagine anything more cruel.

I agree about the testing, but that is besides the point I was making in my OP, whether God is loving and just.

Why would a loving and just God have to torture people just so they can prove to God they can still have faith? Some people can endure the suffering but other people can't, and it is not necessarily their fault. All people do not have the same capacities.

I was only answering for my understanding and iew of your questions, other people wiil maybe agree with your view of God, i have never seen the side of God you explain in your OP.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No, all the bad in the world does not happen because of sin. That is overly simplistic and untrue. Moreover, it is not biblical, but rather it is a man-made Christian doctrine.

Some of the bad owing to human free will choices to sin happens because of sin, but other things that happen to people are not a choice so they cannot be because someone chose to sin. this is logic 101 stuff. I thought I made that clear in my OP but here it is again.

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

You are using a faulty logic, IMO.
So of course you come to a faulty conclusion.
That verse you keep using isn't about God causing evil.
Yes God gave us a world he knew we would corrupt. But according to scripture our first parents still made the choice. So blame them if you want to, but not God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not religious but......

Maybe it wasn't that way at first but all changed after the forbidden fruit was eaten.
They got kicked out of the garden where they were protected and then they knew hurt, pain, anger, dishonesty, evil, death etc. Since then god has just watched without interfering while we experience the consequences of human choices.

I am not a Christian so I do not believe in the Garden of Eden and the forbidden fruit. I do not believe this world would have been a paradise if only Adam and Eve had not eaten that piece of fruit. I cannot believe that because it makes no sense and it is not just. I believe that most the suffering we endure is because we live in a material world and that is the cause of most suffering. Since God created the material world God is responsible for the suffering we endure that is not because we made a free will choice that caused us to suffer.

It is rather childlike to believe that humanity could have lived forever in a Garden with no suffering.
That would essentially put a halt to all of human progress and development and it is not realistic that everyone on earth could or would even want to live that way! I consider it a fairy tale.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I am not a Christian so I do not believe in the Garden of Eden and the forbidden fruit. I do not believe this world would have been a paradise if only Adam and Eve had not eaten that piece of fruit. I cannot believe that because it makes no sense and it is not just. I believe that most the suffering we endure is because we live in a material world and that is the cause of most suffering. Since God created the material world God is responsible for the suffering we endure that is not because we made a free will choice that caused us to suffer.

It is rather childlike to believe that humanity could have lived forever in a Garden with no suffering.
That would essentially put a halt to all of human progress and development and it is not realistic that everyone on earth could or would even want to live that way! I consider it a fairy tale.

No offence @Trailblazer but you sound more and more like an Atheist, it is sad to see you losing your faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are using a faulty logic, IMO.
So of course you come to a faulty conclusion.
That verse you keep using isn't about God causing evil.
Yes God gave us a world he knew we would corrupt. But according to scripture our first parents still made the choice. So blame them if you want to, but not God.

No, your belief that Adam and Eve made the choice that caused all the evil that happened after that is not according to scripture, according to how you interpret scripture, what you believe it means. It is a Christian doctrine tat you have bought off on.

And you still have not addressed all the suffering that is not the result of evil acts.
How are misfortunes, accidents, injuries and diseases anyone's fault? They were not chosen.

 

[Trailblazer]

No offence @Trailblazer but you sound more and more like an Atheist, it is sad to see you losing your faith.

No, I am not losing my belief in God, but faith in God and belief in God are not the same, as I pointed out in the other thread I posted a few days ago.

Belief is not the same as faith

It is not that I have to choose to be either a believer or an atheist, as that is black and white thinking. I can be a believer who questions some of the beliefs.

 

[Spirit of Light]

No, I am not losing my belief in God, but faith in God and belief in God are not the same, as I pointed out in the other thread I posted a few days ago.

Belief is not the same as faith

It is not that I have to choose to be either a believer or an atheist, as that is black and white thinking. I can be a believer who questions some of the beliefs.

I question everything in my belief every day too, but different from you i don't blame God the way you do.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I am not a Christian so I do not believe in the Garden of Eden and the forbidden fruit. I do not believe this world would have been a paradise if only Adam and Eve had not eaten that piece of fruit. I cannot believe that because it makes no sense and it is not just. I believe that most the suffering we endure is because we live in a material world and that is the cause of most suffering. Since God created the material world God is responsible for the suffering we endure that is not because we made a free will choice that caused us to suffer.

It is rather childlike to believe that humanity could have lived forever in a Garden with no suffering.
That would essentially put a halt to all of human progress and development and it is not realistic that everyone on earth could or would even want to live that way! I consider it a fairy tale.

I agree with you, Trailblazer. I think you're spot on. I used to be a Christian, but I finally accepted that my belief in a loving, merciful God was seriously misguided. I also accepted that my hope in God was in vain and I wasn't being honest with myself if I continued to put my faith in God. My belief that God is loving and merciful didn't correlate with my reality of suffering years of abuse and bullying while growing up, despite my frantic prayers to God to save me. The notion of God being loving and merciful didn't correlate with the horrific reality of the world either. Not long after I disavowed my belief and faith, I read the Bible without the rose-colored glasses, and I could no longer ignore the sadistic and barbaric behavior of God that was written about in the Bible. To put it bluntly, I could no longer ignore the fact that this so-called loving and merciful God abandoned me and left me alone in an abusive home while I was growing up. I remember the hell I lived through while I was growing up, but apparently God didn't think I was worth saving.

I can also see the horrible condition of the world and I cannot believe that it's all the fault of fallen man or Satan and God bears no moral responsibility for it whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I think it's a pathetic cop-out to only blame the created (humanity and fallen angels) for the screwed up creation that was made by an all-knowing and all-powerful God. In my opinion, if the Bible is accurate, then the buck should stop with the all-knowing and all-powerful God, not with the lower creatures that this God created to worship him.

 

[Trailblazer]

I question everything in my belief every day too, but different from you i don't blame God the way you do.

I do not blame God. I just point out what God is responsible for, from a purely logical standpoint.