Questions that believers cannot answer

[Trailblazer]

So, suffering IS caused by our own choices as I don't believe in fate or predestination. But you can use apologetics to establish why you believe in it

As I said in my OP, some suffering is caused by the free will choices we make but all suffering is not cause by free will choices. Even if there is no such thing as fate and predestination, there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them. If man is not responsible for them who is? Well, if God is all-powerful and in control of everything (other than our free will choices He allows us to make), I say God is responsible.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Clearly, all suffering is not caused by human free will choices we make. A woman who was raped suffers because of a free will choice someone else made, but clearly not because of any actions on her part. A person who suffers because of an earthquake or a tornado or a hurricane did not cause those events that brought on that suffering. The list goes on.

Since scripture doesn't address that problem, all we have is suppositions. What we do know is that when He created this world and mankind, suffering didn't exist. What we do know is that mankind opened the proverbial "Pandoras Box" and not God.

No, God created a world in which the Box had to be opened eventually.
Maybe suffering did not exist at creation because there was nothing to suffer from, since life was so simple. It is the material world and all the complexities humans have to deal with is the source of suffering, but humans could not stop progress and development just to avoid suffering.

So, the question could also be asked, why do you have babies if you know there is so much suffering?

I never had any babies.

Again... what we have doesn't say exactly why but do we have global view? Why do we relegate "life" by what happens on this earth if there is a hereafter?

Because we live on this earth all our physical lives and there is no proof that there is a hereafter. That is only a belief some people hold. Even if there is a glorious afterlife that does not negate the suffering of this life.

And if God is loving, would He not have provided an answer to what man does? I think He did.

What do you believe God provided as an answer?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, they are the result of God creating a world in which there are unavoidable misfortunes, accidents, injuries and diseases.

I don't think that you will ever get a devout Christian to admit that God intentionally created a world like that, and if he is all-knowing and all-powerful, then he is partially (if not completely) morally responsible for the downfall of mankind and Lucifer and the other fallen angels. If the Bible is inerrant and infallible, then the way I see it, God either predestined mankind, Lucifer, and the other fallen angels to fall into moral corruption and purposely created them this way, or he wasn't powerful enough to stop Lucifer from taking over his perfect creation and corrupting it. Despite the ongoing denial by Christians, I think Isaiah 45:7 is clear when it says that God creates evil (KJV). The New International Version uses the word "disaster" and the English Standard Version uses the word "calamity."

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So, suffering IS caused by our own choices as I don't believe in fate or predestination.

Ken, you can trust me when I say that I did not choose to be physically abused, psychologically abused, and sexually abused while I was growing up. I did not choose to suffer abuse for 13 1/2 years of my childhood, nor did I choose to be bullied and harassed for the 12 years I attended public school. I also did not choose to be sexually assaulted when I was 17 by a man who was almost twice my age. And while some suffering is caused by our own choices, not all suffering is caused by a personal choice. I wanted to clarify that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think that you will ever get a devout Christian to admit that God intentionally created a world like that, and if he is all-knowing and all-powerful, then he is partially (if not completely) morally responsible for the downfall of mankind and Lucifer and the other fallen angels. If the Bible is inerrant and infallible, then the way I see it, God either predestined mankind, Lucifer, and the other fallen angels to fall into moral corruption and purposely created them this way, or he wasn't powerful enough to stop Lucifer from taking over his perfect creation and corrupting it. Despite the ongoing denial by Christians, I think Isaiah 45:7 is clear when it says that God creates evil (KJV). The New International Version uses the word "disaster" and the English Standard Version uses the word "calamity."

I guess that some of your Christian beliefs stuck with you.

Baha'is do not believe in Lucifer or any fallen angels. We believe that Satan, as mentioned in the Bible, is symbolic for the lower nature of man, not a real entity that ever existed.

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

“This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.”
The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 287

I don't think that you will ever get a devout Christian to admit that God intentionally created a world of suffering, and if He is all-knowing and all-powerful, then He is partially responsible for the suffering of mankind. Clearly that is the case since God created this world in which we would suffer, knowing that we would suffer, usually through no fault of our own. Some Christians say that God did not know we would suffer because God is not all-knowing, which is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. They also say that God did not know that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit off the tree until they ate it. Imagine that! A God that is not all-knowing. Then they say that God regretted creating man, as if God could make a mistake. Imagine that, a God that is fallible!

A Christian will always blame human suffering on "the fall" of Adam and Eve, which Baha'is do not believe in either, since we do not believe that Adam and Eve were real people that existed in a Garden of Eden. Even if there was an Adam and Eve, how ridiculous would it be that all humans who existed after that would be responsible for a sin they committed by eating an apple off a tree.

Baha'is believe that the story of Adam and Eve is an allegory. One of the meanings of the story is explained in this short chapter:

30: ADAM AND EVE

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I thought I would take it from the end and work it to the beginning.

Apologetics (from Greek ἀπολογία, "speaking in defense") is the religious discipline of defending religious doctrines through systematic argumentation and discourse

I'm not quite sure apologetics is wrong as it seems to be reasonable.

Just in relation to the above point...
I agree. I don't see apologetics as bad, per se. Much like you might see some online atheists (particularly) as pretty ham-fisted representatives of their position, I'd see some defenders of religion as laughably ham-fisted. But overall I would commend Christianity on its willingness to engage in discussion and examination of doctrine and belief. That appears to me to be far preferable to the alternative.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

God didn’t know!
I’ve explained this to you, using the scriptures, at least a couple times, Trailblazer …

I provided you God’s reasoning with Cain, to control his anger & stop his murderous intent.
(Why try, if Cain was “gonna do it anyway “?)

About God speaking with Abraham about Sodom in Genesis 18, where He said He was going ‘so He could get to know it.’

And about God being “hurt” many times by the actions of the Israelites.
(If He knew, then what is He, a sado-masochist?)


Ecclesiastes 9:11….unforeseen events just happen, Jehovah God has nothing to do with it: Luke 13:1-5


Only you can change your POV. But I think I’ve provided enough Scriptural-view evidence to the contrary. Otherwise, you’re blaming God, but “with evil things, God cannot be tried, nor does He Himself try anyone.” James 1:13-15

Deuteronomy 32:4-5.

Blame the Devil… he’s the “god of this world”, who is controlling things right now. 2 Corinthians 4:4 ; 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world is under the power of the evil one. ; Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. ;
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time." ;
Hebrews 2:14 Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, , last part.

Knowing what events will happen in the future, doesn’t mean God knows who will do it.

It could imply that God will maneuver situations that will lead to those events occurring.

Feeling as you do now, will only embitter you; exactly what the Devil wants.

I wish you peace of mind and heart, from your cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Baha'is do not believe in Lucifer or any fallen angels. We believe that Satan, as mentioned in the Bible, is symbolic for the lower nature of man, not a real entity that ever existed.

OK. Then please explain how he was “hurled down to the earth” out of Heaven. Revelation 12 9,12. That can’t apply to any human.



How did Satan carry on a conversation with Jehovah in Heaven , in Job 1:6-7 & Job 2:1-7.

What “baser instinct of man” can do all these things? And send fire, and afflict with a disease?

Satan is the master of deception, even more so if he can convince people he doesn’t even exist!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

”God has never created an evil spirit;”

That’s right, He didn’t.
But the spirit angel the Bible calls Satan the Devil (two words that mean Opposer & Slanderer, respectively) made improper choices through misuse of his free will.
John 8:44 says “he did not stand fast in the truth”.. which tells us he was “in the truth” at one time, but didn’t stand fast in it.

The Bible truly gives us all we need, we just have to study it w/ the Father’s help Luke 10:21
IMO

Take care.

 

[Trailblazer]

God didn’t know!
I’ve explained this to you, using the scriptures, at least a couple times, Trailblazer …

Sorry, but I do not want to cover that again. You can believe that God did not know but I believe God did know, and I see no point arguing over it.

I believe you have misunderstood the scriptures and that is why you believe God did not know.
That happens all the time because scriptures are interpreted differently by different people.

 

[Trailblazer]

Knowing what events will happen in the future, doesn’t mean God knows who will do it.

God is all-knowing which means that God knows all events that will happen in the future and who will be involved.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. Then please explain how he was “hurled down to the earth” out of Heaven. Revelation 12 9,12. That can’t apply to any human.



How did Satan carry on a conversation with Jehovah in Heaven , in Job 1:6-7 & Job 2:1-7.

What “baser instinct of man” can do all these things? And send fire, and afflict with a disease?

Satan is the master of deception, even more so if he can convince people he doesn’t even exist!

As I said in my post, Baha'is do not believe Satan is a real entity. These Bible stories are fictional stories used as allegories used to convey spiritual truths. The Bible is chock full of allegorical stories.

 

[PureX]

In general, for the same reasons we'd argue about any beliefs. Because they impact on the world we live in. It's why you'll see far more discussion and arguments about Abrahamaic beliefs. I don't believe in Odin anymore than I believe in a Christian God, but one has more impact on my life than the other. Personally, I have no issue with belief in and of itself. Any discussion on 'whether belief in Thor is good' would be theoretical and (frankly) masturbatory.

Beliefs do not impact the world, actions do. Unless someone asks for our opinion on an idea, I see no reason to debate it. And if they are not asking, I see little effect to be had from doing so, anyway.

Depends what they mean as 'good'. I've seen plenty of people say things like 'God is literally the definition of good/moral wellness. And God rejects homosexuality/atheists/squaredancing. So by definition those things are evil.'

Again, so what? If someone believes that, they should not engage in those activities. If they think no one else should engage in them either, so what? They have no control over that.

The issue here is not what people think, it's people trying to control other people. And that's where our debate should be focused. We must control our behaviors to some degree to live together, successfully. But we must also protect each other from each other's desire to control everyone else. So a balance must be found, and maintained regarding this obsession and need we have to control each other. And I think it starts with letting people think what they want, and instead looking at how we are behaving toward each other, and toward the world, both of which we depend on for our survival.

 

[rational experiences]

If no humans yet existed where is the knowledge of the God about suffering?

It does not exist. The advice.

Hence no body existed to know evil.

So if you say a human's body knows suffering it's because physically it can and does by its bio physical living status. We feel pain.

Now if you live carefully and lived supported. Physical harm waylaid. No Ill health. No pain suffering. No accidents no suffering.

How many humans could live without some harm felt?

You'd have to be a rare human not to live hurting yourself by some cause. Being ill. Or being emotionally abused.

Each experience just a humans..as told by a human expressed by a human felt by a human.

Humans aren't lying saying God never knew evil.

So if you ask a scientist if God is changed as substances by you why doesn't it complain?

As I would.

Proving you lie about what a human said God was in human only sciences.

So we said no man knew God nor never would they know. It's impossible.

Mr ego know it all however disagrees as he says if he is man the God he knows everything.

Is the human liar in person.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sorry, but I do not want to cover that again. You can believe that God did not know but I believe God did know, and I see no point arguing over it.

I believe you have misunderstood the scriptures and that is why you believe God did not know.
That happens all the time because scriptures are interpreted differently by different people.

The Apostle John said “God is love.”
Your understanding disagrees with such a statement.

However, it agrees with what I’ve been taught.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

As I said in my post, Baha'is do not believe Satan is a real entity. These Bible stories are fictional stories used as allegories used to convey spiritual truths. The Bible is chock full of allegorical stories.

Then they sure are ambiguous ways to convey spiritual truths!

I’ve never known any religious person to be dead set on believing the Creator is evil, as you seem to be.

Best wishes to you.

 

[Kenny]

Ken, you can trust me when I say that I did not choose to be physically abused, psychologically abused, and sexually abused while I was growing up. I did not choose to suffer abuse for 13 1/2 years of my childhood, nor did I choose to be bullied and harassed for the 12 years I attended public school. I also did not choose to be sexually assaulted when I was 17 by a man who was almost twice my age. And while some suffering is caused by our own choices, not all suffering is caused by a personal choice. I wanted to clarify that.

That is true... and sorry to hear that. -

Thank you for clarifying my position. I should have said that mankind produced suffering and not that we personally always produce it (although sometimes we do)

The one who abused you did "chose" to abuse you

That type of abuse is always heart wrenching. Hope you have found healing. Joyce Meyer, a minister, went through that suffering. she wrote a book (might be a good read) "Ashes to beauty"

 

[Kenny]

Just in relation to the above point...
I agree. I don't see apologetics as bad, per se. Much like you might see some online atheists (particularly) as pretty ham-fisted representatives of their position, I'd see some defenders of religion as laughably ham-fisted. But overall I would commend Christianity on its willingness to engage in discussion and examination of doctrine and belief. That appears to me to be far preferable to the alternative.

Well said.

 

[Wildswanderer]

No, they are the result of God creating a world in which there are unavoidable misfortunes, accidents, injuries and diseases.

Well since you don't believe the Bible you can make up whatever you like as a reason.

 

[rational experiences]

If a man says the ice is melting.

And it's not seasonal melt. Then he claims the saviour of the small body cell life from the giant cell history life is bodily being sacrificed.

As the small cell won its existing presence as presence said the human only teaching. By observations and human thinking.

Pretty basic human aware seen as observed science. Natural. The exact position a spruiking human owns. Highest natural observation is first. Alive living self present human makes the claims.

Ice has to be present on earth to tell the story as the human. No human lying allowed.

Says as the thinker I am with God he named as man. As a human and as I love it's respect of planet earth. It's natural heavens. The garden nature. Animal life. Human life.

I would do as little harm as possible.
Versus evil human thinking.

The choice.

Pretty basic. As no one knows the origin substance that supposedly allows anything to exist.

As type in creation is so varied you can't compare my life human to an insects to a sun. But an evil thinker tries.

Is what we learnt as humans and were taught as humans. Evil coercive human thoughts.

So science doesn't exist. Natural everything first is first. Says ice. Earths story.

Reacting earth mass....natural.
Reactive heavens ....natural.

No thesis as both bodies still react.

No science.

Then an evil thinking human an egotist says I'll tell you how you got invented.

Is exact.

As no human owned a story about why created anything existed.

If a human said I believe a spirit intelligent being created my life. It's only ever a story.

As you are just a human.

So as no science exists. If a human decides to build a machine. A human did. What they put inside of the machine to change is their choice.

Now as rock stone substances exist to change it. The advice Is exact. Owning no heavenly reason.

As place by the term the body is exact only. Earths substance.

So memory of the scientist man asks himself. What do you pretend you are doing when no machine exists first?

As it is pretend first. If a reaction inside your machine works then it is exact. Only in the new moment.

No change to the mass you discuss first and exact to its state exists until you personally cause it.

Was why human science theists are proven liars. Exact. The evil thinking human.

If a heavenly body changes it is natural and it can change and bodily it does.

It's not science as it's not your human built machine. Is exact.

As ice melts it proves it does not support heavenly cooling.

The story says small cells owns red blood. Ice presence the support.

Giant cells cold blooded. No seasons. Before.

The same planet.
The same heavens.

The notification body bio change is happening again is because ice is melting. The body saviour.

Basically simple.

The story in human only science was about the presence of the newly born earth mass ice.

How it kept life safe.

There wasn't any other story. As human science is a practice.

 

[KWED]

I've encountered disembodied sprits that seem to suggest otherwise.
But who knows, maybe I'm just nuts.

"Nuts" is an outdated pejorative.
But yes, you are very likely experiencing delusional events.
We know that the physical brain can produce these delusions that seem entirely real to the subject (we are even able to produce delusions through manipulation).
Because every attempt to detect, observe, reproduce or verify in any way the claims that these events originate outside of the physical brain, the best explanation for any such experience is that it is a delusion produced by the physical brain, even if it did seem really real you you.