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Questions that believers cannot answer

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man?

That's an easy question for an atheist. Nobody. In fact, it's one of the benefits of not being saddled with the belief that a god had the power to prevent this suffering but looks away. Today, somewhere, a doe-eyes little girl will die of leukemia. I much prefer that that be due to bad luck than an indifferent god.

So many issues created by accepting the existence of a tri-omni god are resolved by eliminating the god, although I believe that most of these problems like the one you inquired about could be resolved just by getting rid of the tri-omni part and having a god that isn't always interested in everybody else's well-being or doesn't know about all the suffering. All of this vanishes when one does.

Regarding apologetics, if one starts with the idea that this god is perfect with perfect goodness, power, and knowledge, then there is only one way to proceed. Somehow this suffering isn't actually suffering, or it's good for us so that we'll know what it feels like when it stops and be grateful for that (isn't that what arguments that say that suffering exists so that we can know pleasure imply), or that it's due to Satan, or that it's due to man's sinful nature and free will. What else can one say without giving up or modifying the theology?

As you know, for many, going all the way back to Epicurus, this is an argument against such a deity existing, analogous to arguments asking why a perfect god makes errors that it regrets and tries to remedy.

This sounds appropriate to me. Who is to say what the morality of the Gods actually entails, and whether we are superior or lesser thereof?

I had said, "I understood you to be arguing that one shouldn't pass moral judgment on a god who allows what appears to be gratuitous suffering because human beings don't know enough to make such judgments, and that they should accept that a good god might exist anyway with a higher morality, and get out of the moral judgment business when it comes to gods"

We each have a duty to ourselves and others to make moral judgments. One of the insidious aspects of some religions is the insistence that one deny his will, his conscience, and his sense of reason. Here, we're asked to suspend moral judgment and consider that what feels very immoral actually is not. In other areas, one is expected to silence the cognitive dissonance caused by reason, which is labeled the words of a demon trying to steal ones soul and is praised for shutting out that voice. In other areas, we are asked to give up our will, submit, don't try to run your own life but turn it over to God. Be meek and turn the other cheek. Any other disposition is rebellious, or man trying to exalt himself and replace God.

Why would anybody do all or any of that? Better to just steer clear of that kind of thinking and advice. You call yourself Druid. I don't know much about polytheism, but I am under the impression that the gods or spirits you acknowledge don't make such requests of you. Likewise with the Greek and Viking pantheons. As far as I know, these lesser gods don't seem to have much interest in the affairs or behavior of men. They don't ask you to do what feels immoral or irrational, or to submit to them. I consider that much healthier, in fact, probably harmless.

The bible says "judge not lest ye be judged." But, if we can't judge Satan, we might make the mistake of following him.

Exactly. You've illustrated the danger of suppressing one's conscience, and why that is dangerous even from a theistic perspective, where both gods and demons exist. How is man to know which is which if evil can actually appear to be good in disguise to him? Man must be the measure of what is good and what is bad, and his metric needs to be his conscience, not the uncritically received morality of a religious system, especially an ancient one, where submission and obedience were necessary, where life was shorter and more brutal, war and genocide more prevalent, and the state had a legitimate interest in keeping every womb busy every year.

We're still experiencing that ancient morality today with the pressure to be heterosexual, to marry, to not divorce, to not deny the husband conjugal rights, to not abort, and not use birth control including masturbation or the rhythm method when that's all there was. Today, when people are living longer andless likely to die at war, that program just leads to overpopulation, which is harmful. If somebody tells you that that is the will of a good god that sees further, and you accept that, you contribute to the harm as the anti-choice movement has just done. That is the potential price of substituting an exogenous morality for one's natural faculties.

If parents are loving, why would they birth their children 'intentionally' into a world that they knew would engender so much human suffering? If parents are just, why would they birth children knowing some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? Why have a child then?

The OP had said, "If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering? If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?"

I'd say that that analogy isn't apt, because these parents cannot remove the suffering in their world like a god could. Also, have you heard how many people are doing just that? The future looks so much more grim now than it had in the past that many potential parents are opting out of parenthood for fear of bringing a child into the world that will likely have a bad life fighting off authoritarianism, guns everywhere, an uncertain and threatening technological future, worsening economic opportunities, and extreme weather. Even nuclear war is back on the table. Would you want to be born today? I was born in the Father Knows Best / Leave It To Beaver era, when my parents had a reasonable expectation that I could live the American dream. By the time I was faced with the choice to reproduce or not, the late seventies, the future still looked rosy enough that the idea that the world was too unfriendly to be born into hadn't occurred to me.

The question isn't why there's suffering in the world if God exists... the question is why there's any good thing if he doesn't.

That's another easy question for an atheist. Goodness doesn't depend on a god. It's perfectly natural that evolution would gift us with the ability to discern what is good for us and what is harmful, and to prefer the former. This is another aspect of the thinking I was describing above that results from thinking that all good is from God and all evil from man and demons. And so you deflect from the suffering, which to you likely has nothing to do with God, to the good in life to credit that god.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Prefer to look at it as if you don't understand pain, or loss, how can understand the importance of pleasure, and gain?
So a baby that has never experienced starvation cannot experience pleasure from eating something it really likes?
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
Please...there is pain from which we can grow, and pure destruction and agony. To suggest all pain and suffering is a way for us to learn is trite.
Why?

Why are the natural laws for human physical growth and development so inaccurate to our emotional and spiritual growth and development.

I'm not advocating torture, but if I want to grow it takes work. I do not gain the ability to shot basketballs well by sitting on my couch, being challenged even defeated promotes growth.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I believe that a smart person does not ask why God does something but instead asks how he can please God and follow His instructions.
The even smarter guy would first have to figure out which god he needed to please. The smart answer is clearly "all of them".
But then, some gods don't like us pleasing the other gods, so it starts to get complicated.
So the real smart guy just pretends he never saw or heard any of the gods. Problem solved.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I agree that suffering is necessary to learn and grow spiritually
Only because god made it that way. He could have created the universe so that people could learn and grow spiritually simply by having a lovely time and being nice to each other.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
What did you learn from 6,372,638 deaths and 560,401,709 infections (that does not include the unreported) due to Covid-19? What about Monkey-pox now?
COVID Live - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Many things.
1. In many parts of the world leaders where chomping at the bit to go authoritarian on their citizens.
2. despite a lot of talk about being prepared much of the work really is not ready for their comforts to be disrupted.
3. When faced with a challenge we often can find other ways of doing things that can have some positive results (Walmart has employees doing all the shopping for many people and like a miracle Walmart employees now know where things are).
4. the CDC and FDA were willing to sell out the American people's health and very lives.
5. the extreme levels of abuse inflicted on doctors for putting their patients above a narrative in a nation that support "freedom of speech"

I could go on, but a lot of lessons can be learned even from really bad events.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Don't pull that ploy on me. I do believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about God, I just question whether God is loving and just, and I have a right to question what I cannot understand. Only brainwashed believers don't question anything in their scriptures. They want to believe them so badly that they don't question anything and that's their choice.
...and what ploy is that?
Did you not say... Nobody know what is in God's Mind, so all we can have are personal opinions.?
Or was that Bahaullah tampering with your post?
Or maybe you just wanted to distract people from seeing what you said.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
No, it would not mean that since I did not say that. I am a believer, just not a believer who beliees everything without questioning it. :rolleyes:

You made a claim that God is loving. You do not have to prove that to me but when you make a claim on a forum you should be able to back it up.

Of course God knew what would happen when He created this world.
God cannot choose not to know some things because God is omniscient by His nature.

Where in the Bible does it say God knows everything?

In Matthew 10:30, Jesus said, the very hairs of our head are numbered. That is amazing. God is all-knowing, he is aware of everything about us, everything we do and everything we think.May 3, 2016

POSITIVE LIVING: GOD SEES, HEARS AND KNOWS ...
https://theanguillian.com › 2016/05 › positive-living-go..


Does the Bible ever say that God is omniscient?

The word omniscience means all knowing. Omni meaning all and science meaning knowledge. The word is not found anywhere in the Bible, but the truth of God being omniscient is revealed throughout its pages from Genesis to Revelation.Dec 1, 2017

Attributes of God | He is Omniscient - Lifeway Women


Nice try. See above.

It is reasonable and it is consistent with the Bible, if you know how to interpret the Bible.

That is all that is going on here, religious apologetics. I have seen no reasonable argumentation, except from an atheist called @It Aint Necessarily So.

Of course you attach a meaning to the account; otherwise you would not know what it means.

God is responsible for BOTH the good and the bad things that happen to people. It is right there in your own Bible, yet you try to gloss it over.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I do not have to convince myself that God is not loving. All I have to do is look at all the suffering in this world. YOU are the one who needs to convince yourself tat God is loving in spite of all this suffering.

Thank you Dr. Phil. :rolleyes:
Open to reason? There IS no reason to believe that God is loving except for what scriptures say.

God did not create the world? That goes against the Bible.

Bible Gateway Genesis 1 :: NIV. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

Bible Gateway Genesis 1 :: NIV


Some of the suffering in this world is caused by man's foolish choices, but not the choices of Adam & Eve. The remained of the suffering is not man's fault because man did not choose it. Does a woman choose to be raped? Does a child choose to get cancer?

There is no way out as long as people are living in this world. Believing your beliefs offers you a way out but I would prefer reality to beliefs.

I do not see God helping anyone and you can never prove that is taking place so it is just a belief.

It is, but only if the operation is successful.
It was answered with religious apologetics, the only way it can be answered, as I said in my OP.

It only offers proof AFTER the fulfillment. Till them it is just a promise.

Know what? What you believe? I know, but what I know is not the same as your belief.
All you did here is repeat your opinions - your beliefs, and according to you, if you cannot prove it, it's just your opinion - your beliefs.
You cannot prove anything you said here.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Why?

Why are the natural laws for human physical growth and development so inaccurate to our emotional and spiritual growth and development.

I'm not advocating torture, but if I want to grow it takes work. I do not gain the ability to shot basketballs well by sitting on my couch, being challenged even defeated promotes growth.

I didn't suggest that pain and suffering can't promote growth. Indeed I said that pain can promote growth. I also said that some pain does not, and is purely destructive.

What lesson are these babies learning?

Childhood's End: What Life Is Like for Crack Babies
 

Qwin

Member
You are correct that I was aiming this at Christians or any of the other religions that teach that God is loving and just.

In short, I am asking that if God is loving why is there so much suffering in the world, particularly the suffering that is not due to human free will choices. I was also asking why some people suffer so much more than others.

I am not saying as some people on this thread seem to think, that there should be no suffering at all, that we should live in a paradise free of suffering. There will always be suffering in a material world, that is unavoidable, but if God created this material world then God is responsible for the suffering that we do not bring on by our own free will choices. This is basic logic.

Christians and others who 'believe' that God is loving and just are entitled to believe that, but I cannot believe something that does not make sense to me just because it feels good emotionally. Because I am a logical thinker, not a faith-based thinker, I can only believe what I can accommodate in my mind.

I am probably closely aligned with Taoist beliefs, but I am a Baha'i, so I have a Abrahamic religion. I am find with all the Baha'i beliefs but I call into question whether God is loving and just because what I see in this world seems to contradict that. As a Baha'i, I have a right to question, as we are told to study our scriptures and question what we believe rather than blindly following it like most Christians follow the Bible.

Is it better to be an atheist who looks at reality and sees it for what it is or to be a believer who just believes on faith even if what they believe makes no sense? That is a personal decision but a moot point for me because I believe that God exists, so I have to somehow make peace with God.

Logic tends to lack, and this a struggle for many. For example: with 'Near Death Experience,' it has been noted that those who experience NDEs claimed that it lasted hours, even days, when in fact according to this realm, it only lasted seconds or perhaps at most, minutes. Those noting it were of course bazingas who say it's all to do with the brain. I've had similar experiences with time differences, although not with NDEs. You can certainly believe the laughable stumbling bazingas for whom failure is often success, or that something else it happening. Even schizophrenia (which has a new name, which I forget) with mainstream postulating, unsurprisingly that it's a brain malfunction, whilst others, excommunicated bazingas claim it's actual entities that trouble the schizophrenics.

The time difference defies logic, but it doesn't defy my logic. What does the bible say about humanity? It says, after the fall, that man knows like a God; the Tree of Life of good and evil. Animals that we were, we became different. Now that we are different, we know good and evil. Simple as that. To expand though, you are troubled by the fact of good and evil. Animals are not troubled, expect in defence or friendship, and other than that they go their way. Seldom do they exhibit vengeance or those things considered evils. There is suffering in the world because you are aware that there is suffering in the world, whereas animals are not encumbered with that knowledge; the knowledge of good and evil.

You say: 'we did not bring our suffering by our own freewill choices.' The Tao would argue against that, even Hindus, even the Bible, and me as well. The Bible though, like the rest are exceedingly old, but most made sense to the intelligentsia for millennia, although lately it's been forgotten and misunderstood. I mean, nowadays there's even arguments about what is woman, and a man. And many things are being questioned because the basis is no longer understood, whereas for millennia it was understood. Not understanding is stupidity, as defined: lacking intelligence and common sense. It's not making an attempt to learn, to question oneself deeply, but rather to attack age-old concepts and call everything that went before stupid, which is what the sciences, anarchists and others confused tend to do.

Using your logic, you say, you don't understand. The way around that is to realize that your logic is faulty. If it wasn't faulty, you would understand. Logical? All righty then, how to understand... What's the Biblical passage, 'lest you be born again, you won't know heaven'... something like that, which means what? It means mentally die and then see anew again, probably like a child. It means cast aside all that you know. Your head is full of names for everything, and those names are like kiddy's blocks which you shift around and come to conclusions. To escape yourself, you must psychoanalyze yourself. Switch off everything and then daily, write your thoughts - every little stupid thought, for perhaps an hour in the morning, and for say 3 months. Your writing will tell you who you are because your writing will be you. Your real logic, not your learned or assumed logic, will kick-in and you will spot your flaws. In that way, you can see what's faulty and what is not. In that way, you will see a different world, even as a child sees wonder. All it takes is work.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
....If it did, then people who do not reject God would never suffer, and such is not the case. People suffer through no fault of their own because that was fated by God and this material world is a storehouse of suffering..

Yes, it can be so that people suffer without own reason. But, I think it is not a problem, because this is only temporary lesson so that we could know what evil means and those who are righteous, can have eternal life with God and so I think all suffering that was not earned can be compensated.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I didn't suggest that pain and suffering can't promote growth. Indeed I said that pain can promote growth. I also said that some pain does not, and is purely destructive.

What lesson are these babies learning?

Childhood's End: What Life Is Like for Crack Babies


At some point there is a major lesson in forgiveness.

There are some larger lessons in life that many of us need to learn.

Compassion for others leaps to mind. Also understanding that our choices impact many others. Sometimes its the family caring for the baby who is in most need of the learning. There far too many situations for me to predict who needs to learn what, but life provides a lot of learning opportunities.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
That's another easy question for an atheist. Goodness doesn't depend on a god. It's perfectly natural that evolution would gift us with the ability to discern what is good for us and what is harmful,
That's not the definition of good and evil. Lots of evil things might be good for humanity from some perspective.
If it's just about harm, it becomes very arbitrary.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yes, it can be so that people suffer without own reason. But, I think it is not a problem, because this is only temporary lesson so that we could know what evil means and those who are righteous, can have eternal life with God and so I think all suffering that was not earned can be compensated.
If god didn't create evil, we wouldn't have to learn what it means.
And why do some people have to personally suffer evil but not others? Do people who haven't suffered evil not get eternal life?
 
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