Questions that believers cannot answer

[KWED]

Lots of evil things might be good for humanity from some perspective.

Like what?

 

[The Hammer]

Because of the problems they cause.

Believers cause problems. Not the Gods per se.

And that's just because we haven't figured out the thing they've been trying to teach us. "Be good, and cooperate with one another"

 

[The Hammer]

Merely illustrating the flaw in the argument.
We don't need to experience misery in order to be able to be happy.

So you took the argument to an illogical extreme and that's my problem?

Silly

 

[The Hammer]

That's not the definition of good and evil. Lots of evil things might be good for humanity from some perspective.
If it's just about harm, it becomes very arbitrary.

Name an evil that is good?

 

[Kenny]

As I said in my OP, some suffering is caused by the free will choices we make but all suffering is not cause by free will choices. Even if there is no such thing as fate and predestination, there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them. If man is not responsible for them who is? Well, if God is all-powerful and in control of everything (other than our free will choices He allows us to make), I say God is responsible.

Obviously, I am speaking in the understanding of the "signature" at the end of every post.

1) I think we misinterpret "all powerful". It would appear that the connotation given is "control me like a puppet and don't let me do anything wrong".

If He is "all powerful" - then He is also powerful enough to give the world to mankind. If He cannot do that, then He isn't all-powerful. Within my faith paradigm, we have precedent, or the law of firsts. In the beginning there was no sickness, disease, death , misfortunes et al.

Man was in perfect communion with fulness of life.

In the end there will also be no sickness, disease, misfortunes, death et al.. man will once again be in perfect communion with the fulness of life.

it was when man decided to not have God in his life that all the misfortunes came into being... so, ultimately, it is still man's fault.

Clearly, all suffering is not caused by human free will choices we make. A woman who was raped suffers because of a free will choice someone else made, but clearly not because of any actions on her part. A person who suffers because of an earthquake or a tornado or a hurricane did not cause those events that brought on that suffering. The list goes on.

So, as per above, ultimately man creates suffering to the point that a rape victim is still the result of someones choice of not following God.

No, God created a world in which the Box had to be opened eventually.
Maybe suffering did not exist at creation because there was nothing to suffer from, since life was so simple. It is the material world and all the complexities humans have to deal with is the source of suffering, but humans could not stop progress and development just to avoid suffering.

I think that is a theological debate. We will never know because it was opened.

I never had any babies.

but people do (which was the point)

Because we live on this earth all our physical lives and there is no proof that there is a hereafter. That is only a belief some people hold. Even if there is a glorious afterlife that does not negate the suffering of this life.

Again, my signature. And the suffering was created by man.

What do you believe God provided as an answer?

Jesus who took on all sin to restore communion. A new earth (eventually) where there will be no more crying or dying.

In the meantime - we are still in charge. Having abundance of food, people starve. Have abundance of land, countries want more and create wars. Having authority to serve they become selfish instead of selfless.

Man is a mess so "For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosever believes in Him would not perish but have everlasting life for God did not send the son to condemn the world but to save the world".

(Of course, all within the context of my signature)

 

[Trailblazer]

The Apostle John said “God is love.”
Your understanding disagrees with such a statement.

However, it agrees with what I’ve been taught.

What is the supposed to men, God is love?
My religion teaches that God is all-loving but I see no evidence that is true.
I cannot make sense of an all-loving God ho would create a world with so much suffering.
I know all of the religious apologetics but they don't work for me.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Like what?

Like if you believe that the earth is overpopulated killing a few hundred thousand people makes sense.

 

[Wildswanderer]

What is the supposed to men, God is love?

It's his most essential attribute.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Name an evil that is good?

It all depends on what you think good is, unless there's a higher authority that decided for you.

Good for some is simply what benefits their tribe. If there's some kind of standard, we sure don't act like there is. We disagree constantly about what is good for others and what is good for the earth.
Is killing animals for food good or bad?
Is killing the unborn good or bad?
Is allowing people to arm themselves good or bad?
I could go on all day.

 

[Sheldon]

The premise is that "God is bad because suffering is bad and God created a universe that allows suffering". But the fact is that we know absolutely nothing of God and almost nothing of the universe.

We know the universe contains suffering, and people imagine a deity created it this way, and allows that suffering, and yet make the paradoxical claim this deity is perfectly moral.

So thinking we are in any position to pass judgment on these because we "suffer" is just blinding hubris.

If it's not to "blinding hubris" to claim a deity exists and has certain characteristics, then it's risible to claim it's blinding hubris to point out any rational contradictions in those claims.

You don't see the idiocy of passing judgments on an "alleged deity"?

Only if one were idiotic enough not to notice that the beliefs are not alleged, nor is the effect of those beliefs alleged.

Well, having no knowledge of the limitations of the "natural realm", it would be difficult to know when or whether something became "supernatural". But I guess the empiricist can't quite get that far in his reasoning.

Supernatural is something attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature, and it isn't empiricists who claim things are supernatural, it's theists. I have read them make such claims here. Again I can disbelieve the claim without knowing the limitations of scientific understanding or natural laws, since no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for anything supernatural.

 

[Sheldon]

Like if you believe that the earth is overpopulated killing a few hundred thousand people makes sense.

Not to me, can you explain why you think that makes sense?

 

[Trailblazer]

Then they sure are ambiguous ways to convey spiritual truths!

I’ve never known any religious person to be dead set on believing the Creator is evil, as you seem to be.

Best wishes to you.

I never said that I believe that God is evil so that is a straw man.
I only ever said that I question whether God is loving and just.

 

[Balthazzar]

Questions that believers cannot answer…. without resorting to a plethora of religious apologetics.

If God is loving, why did God ‘intentionally’ create a world that He knew would engender so much human and animal suffering?

If God is just, why did God create a world in which He knew some people would suffer so much more than others, many people hardly suffering at all? How is that fair?

I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people that affect us and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our fate, for which God is responsible.

Believers only want to look at the good things and thank God for those things, they do not want to look at the bad things for which God is responsible. Instead, they try to say that all the bad things are really good because suffering is good, and God can never be responsible for anything bad. This is a religious apologetic and Imo it is an attempt to gloss over all the suffering in the world and say God is not responsible for it.

It would be unfair to blame man for things that are beyond his control so who is responsible for all the suffering in the world that is not caused by man? Logically speaking, if God is responsible for 'everything' then God is responsible for 'both' the good and bad things that happen to us.

Isaiah 45:7 ESV
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

I rest my case.

1. God is said to be unchanging - Physics, quantum physics, universal realities, in which all things are subject to, the basis and substance of Gods being, from which life came to be. Universal laws and principles, unchanging in both application and affect are the building blocks of the living world, as well as the non-living world. In short, it had to be this way based on who and what does not change - God.

2. The balance between poles of experience, between pleasant and unpleasant involves resistance in attaining a place of rest. People gravitate, much like water through the channels of resistance and least resistance. We migrate consciously towards greener pastures, more abundant food sources, and less severe climates. So do other species in the animal kingdom. It's part of conscious navigation and awareness, which very often entails hardship of monumental proportions.

Will our struggles be worth the adaptation and evolutionary development in the future? I would suggest that's the only way to progress and persevere in God. Endurance is not unbiblical, nor new to even the secular world - It's a reality of life on earth, and very likely in other planetary systems able to harbor life.

Why create lifeforms that feel and experience hardship? Perhaps it had to be this way -

 

[Trailblazer]

Well since you don't believe the Bible you can make up whatever you like as a reason.

You 'believe' that the Bible offers you a reason.
Believers of my religion also think they know the reason.
I don't claim to know the reason, only God knows the reason for creating a world of suffering.
But despite the reason, the suffering in this world calls into question whether God is loving, for any logical person.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why create lifeforms that feel and experience hardship? Perhaps it had to be this way -

Perhaps.

 

[Trailblazer]

Only because god made it that way. He could have created the universe so that people could learn and grow spiritually simply by having a lovely time and being nice to each other.

That is correct. He could have but He didn't.
BTW, people do grow spiritually by being nice to each other.

 

[Trailblazer]

All you did here is repeat your opinions - your beliefs, and according to you, if you cannot prove it, it's just your opinion - your beliefs.
You cannot prove anything you said here.

Nor can you prove anything you said, so it is just your opinion, your beliefs.

 

[Balthazzar]

You 'believe' that the Bible offers you a reason.
Believers of my religion also think they know the reason.
I don't claim to know the reason, only God knows the reason for creating a world of suffering.
But despite the reason, the suffering in this world calls into question whether God is loving, for any logical person.

I've spoken with people who refuse to bring children into this world, people who view those who do unloving and cruel, based on the suffering present in it. It's not much different than the op's contention to be honest. What about love or perhaps the question should be: "What is love"?

 

[Trailblazer]

You say: 'we did not bring our suffering by our own freewill choices.'

No, that is not what I said. I said:

"I am not referring to suffering caused by our own choices we make that cause us to suffer, I am talking about suffering as the result of fate and predestination.

To clarify, I believe that some things that happen to us are subject to human free will and some things are not, because they were predestined by God and we have no control over them. That is called fate.

All things that are not chosen by virtue of our own free are beyond our control and I believe they are predestined by God. God is responsible for both the good and the bad things that happen to us, if those things were predestined."

Using your logic, you say, you don't understand. The way around that is to realize that your logic is faulty. If it wasn't faulty, you would understand.

No, that is not true. Just because I do not understand something that does not mean my logic is faulty because that implies that logic that the use of logic alone would enable me to understand God.

Moreover God is not subject to logic.

Everything in this physical world is subject to the rules of logic but the rules of logic do not apply to God. God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can ever be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. Such an entity can never be subject to human logic and it would be illogical to think so. It is absurd to expect to be able to encapsulate an infinite God with the finite human mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

those who are righteous, can have eternal life with God and so I think all suffering that was not earned can be compensated.

That is what my religion teaches and hopefully it will come to pass!

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329