Questions that evolutionists and billions of years proponents cannot answer but disprove their theories.

[SavedByTheLord]

Why are these questions relevant to your argument, or to this thread?

If a first living creature could not come into being by natural processes, there is nothing to evolve from

 

[shunyadragon]

What was the first living creature?

Single-celled asexual RNA organisms like the first known organisms found in rocks formed from hydrothermal vents 3.7 billion years old. Similar asexual single-celled RNA organisms exist today,

What were all the functions it had?

The same as any similar living organism today survives and reproduces.

I call it FraudASaurus.

This is understandable considering your ancient mythical religious agenda, and intentional ignorance of science.

 

[shunyadragon]

If a first living creature could not come into being by natural processes, there is nothing to evolve from

The first living organism did come into being in the hydrothermal ocean vents 3.7 billion years ago where the first single-celled organisms have been found.

You have made it abundantly clear that reject science in favor of ancient mythical explanations for the history of life and our physical existence, therefore your objections are just meaningless rants from intentional ignorance of science.

 

[shunyadragon]

hopefully we can discuss a few points that demonstrate the idea of eternal torture of conscious beings that are said to be damned in a horrible hellfire is simply not true. I will get back to this. It's late for me on the east coast of the U.S. and hopefully this will be the first subject I pick up when I am back to RF.

You have made it abundantly clear you do not accept science the same way AIG rejects science. You create imaginary problems and contort science, which does not justify your religious belief. You have left a trail of phony ridiculous arguments for a very long time like Toy dinosaurs dated with Carbon-14, and cud-chewing rabbits and not responding when you are called to task for these ridiculous arguments.

Check out the Encyclopedia Britannica on evolution.

 

[SavedByTheLord]

The first living organism did come into being in the hydrothermal ocean vents 3.7 billion years ago where the first single-celled organisms have been found.

You have made it abundantly clear that reject science in favor of ancient mythical explanations for the history of life and our physical existence, therefore your objections are just meaningless rants from intentional ignorance of science.

The oceans were frozen because of the faint young sun paradox
Also water would have washed away any concentration of amino acids

 

[McBell]

The oceans were frozen because of the faint young sun paradox
Also water would have washed away any concentration of amino acids

methane and carbon dioxide.

 

[shunyadragon]

The oceans were frozen because of the faint young sun paradox

The geologic period where the oceans were frozen did not affect the environment around the ocean floor spreading and the hydrothermal vents. The first organisms did not depend on the sun for energy. The energy source for abiogenesis and earliest life was the heat from the vents. The surface of the earth was too toxic and deadly for life for millions of years.

Yes, there was a geologic period when most of the Earth was covered wit ice. Are you now accepting the geologic evidence for geologic periods of billions of years of Earth's history or being awkwardly selective to justify your agenda?

Also water would have washed away any concentration of amino acids

Not in the hydrothermal vents as they function today and billions of years ago. Things do not wash away around and in the mid-ocean hydrothermal events.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If a first living creature could not come into being by natural processes, there is nothing to evolve from

First off you do not know if abiogenesis is impossible. You can only have an unjustified belief that abiogenesis is impossible. Scientists have a justified belief that it is possible. Second even if natural abiogenesis is impossible why do you think that makes evolution impossible? The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. That is your strawman argument.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The geologic period where the oceans were frozen did not affect the environment around the ocean floor spreading and the hydrothermal vents. The first organisms did not depend on the sun for energy. The energy source for abiogenesis and earliest life was the heat from the vents. The surface of the earth was too toxic and deadly for life for millions of years.

Yes, there was a geologic period when most of the Earth was covered wit ice. Are you now accepting the geologic evidence for geologic periods of billions of years of Earth's history or being awkwardly selective to justify your agenda?


Not in the hydrothermal vents as they function today and billions of years ago. Things do not wash away around and in the mid-ocean hydrothermal events.

The mid ocean vents were and still are a source of amino acids. It is a version of the Miller Urey experiment that can be tested in real life. Here is a popular magazine article on it, but they do link the peer reviewed literatue:

https://knowablemagazine.org/article/physical-world/2020/searching-high-and-low-origins-life

"Hot, bubbling fissures in the deep, sunless ocean seem unlikely places for life at all, let alone life’s origin. Yet recent studies have shown that two essential ingredients — amino acids and primitive cell membranes — can form spontaneously and reliably near the hydrothermal vents found in seafloors. The discoveries bolster a hypothesis about life’s origins that some scientists have supported for decades."

 

[SavedByTheLord]

The mid ocean vents were and still are a source of amino acids. It is a version of the Miller Urey experiment that can be tested in real life. Here is a popular magazine article on it, but they do link the peer reviewed literatue:

https://knowablemagazine.org/article/physical-world/2020/searching-high-and-low-origins-life

"Hot, bubbling fissures in the deep, sunless ocean seem unlikely places for life at all, let alone life’s origin. Yet recent studies have shown that two essential ingredients — amino acids and primitive cell membranes — can form spontaneously and reliably near the hydrothermal vents found in seafloors. The discoveries bolster a hypothesis about life’s origins that some scientists have supported for decades."

You are kidding right?
What was the concentration of amino acids?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are kidding right?
What was the concentration of amino acids?

I don't know. Tell me how deep is your understanding of organic chemistry? If you want to refute the work of other scientists you need to have a firm grasp of the basic science. Frankly I have to trust these scientists for most of their work. I can plod through an article if I can open up another window to look up all of the terms that I do not understand, but there is no way that I could reproduce their original work.

But of course my ability to do their work does not matter. There are countless other scientists that can do that work and will refute it if it is wrong. That is what scientists do. They enjoy showing that the work of others is wrong. Of course some work appears to be correct and cannot be refuted. Oh, and when they show another to be wrong it has to be done with rational arguments.

 

[McBell]

I don't know. Tell me how deep is your understanding of organic chemistry? If you want to refute the work of other scientists you need to have a firm grasp of the basic science. Frankly I have to trust these scientists for most of their work. I can plod through an article if I can open up another window to look up all of the terms that I do not understand, but there is no way that I could reproduce their original work.

But of course my ability to do their work does not matter. There are countless other scientists that can do that work and will refute it if it is wrong. That is what scientists do. They enjoy showing that the work of others is wrong. Of course some work appears to be correct and cannot be refuted. Oh, and when they show another to be wrong it has to be done with rational arguments.

What?
You mean scientists are NOT jumping up and down with their fingers in their ears screaming "GodDidIt!"?

 

[Subduction Zone]

What?
You mean scientists are NOT jumping up and down with their fingers in their ears screaming "GodDidIt!"?

That used to work. Maybe. About four or five hundred years ago. I guess that our OP should be relieved that they do not jump up and down with their fingers in their ears saying "GodDidn'tDoodit" either.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You are kidding right?
What was the concentration of amino acids?

I personally have no clue. But the reason that I am responding again is because this comment of yours reminded me of something. There is life today that relies solely on "Black smokers" For their existence. They get their energy from Hydrogen sulfide and other reactant chemicals out of vents at divergence zones. They are quite different from other life on the planet. But at any rate my thinking was that if it can feed life now there is no reason that it could not have fostered life in the beginning:

Life at the hydrothermal vents | AMNH

The floor of the deep ocean is almost devoid of life, because little food can be found there.

www.amnh.org

 

[SavedByTheLord]

I personally have no clue. But the reason that I am responding again is because this comment of yours reminded me of something. There is life today that relies solely on "Black smokers" For their existence. They get their energy from Hydrogen sulfide and other reactant chemicals out of vents at divergence zones. They are quite different from other life on the planet. But at any rate my thinking was that if it can feed life now there is no reason that it could not have fostered life in the beginning:

Life at the hydrothermal vents | AMNH

The floor of the deep ocean is almost devoid of life, because little food can be found there.

www.amnh.org

Still problems with that.
No matter what the first living creature was it would still need to have some building blocks which could form some protective layer to keep it from being dispersed by the water.
That is just one problem. There are more.

 

[shunyadragon]

The mid ocean vents were and still are a source of amino acids. It is a version of the Miller Urey experiment that can be tested in real life. Here is a popular magazine article on it, but they do link the peer reviewed literatue:

https://knowablemagazine.org/article/physical-world/2020/searching-high-and-low-origins-life

"Hot, bubbling fissures in the deep, sunless ocean seem unlikely places for life at all, let alone life’s origin. Yet recent studies have shown that two essential ingredients — amino acids and primitive cell membranes — can form spontaneously and reliably near the hydrothermal vents found in seafloors. The discoveries bolster a hypothesis about life’s origins that some scientists have supported for decades."

You are kidding right?
What was the concentration of amino acids?

No not kidding. The amino acids are in high concentrations around the hydrothermal vents. Temperatures would be too high, over 200 degrees C in high-temperature hydrothermal vents themselves but abundant in the more suitable vents of lower temperatures. See bold in the following reference.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0146638013002520#:~:text=The%20amino%20acid%20polymers%20plausibly,(%3E%20200%20%C2%B0C).

Many hydrothermal systems have been discovered in the world’s oceans since the first discovery at the Galapagos rift in 1977 (Weiss et al., 1977, Corliss et al., 1979). Seafloor hydrothermal fluids are physico-chemically distinct from seawater by having high temperatures, strongly reducing conditions and being enriched in heavy metal ions (Von Damm et al., 1985). Highly diverse ecosystems develop around hydrothermal vents, commonly in temperatures > 300 °C.

The hydrothermal environment is postulated to have been the cradle of life on the primitive Earth (e.g., Miller and Bada, 1988, Holm, 1992). Previous studies revealed that the amino acids necessary to form life can be synthesized in laboratory-replicated hydrothermal conditions: large amounts of glycine, alanine and serine were produced when a solution containing aldehyde and ammonia was heated to 100–325 °C (Kamaluddin et al., 1979, Marshall, 1994, Aubrey et al., 2009). Protein formation processes have also been investigated based on the behavior of amino acids under hydrothermal conditions. Polymer balls of amino acids (0.3–2.5 μm) called marigranules were observed when amino acids were heated to 105 °C in an artificial hydrothermal solution that contained dissolved Mg, Ca, Mo, Zn, Fe, Cu, Mn and Co (Yanagawa and Egami, 1978). Short chained peptides were synthesized when a solution containing highly concentrated amino acids was heated in a flow reactor that simulated rapid heating and cooling conditions similar to those of hydrothermal vents (Imai et al., 1999, Cleaves et al., 2009). Although amino acid synthesis and oligomerization are promoted under hydrothermal conditions, the formation rates are very small and the concentrations of amino acids and peptides decrease because of rapid hydrolysis (Qian et al., 1993, Bada et al., 1995). Thermodynamic theories suggest that hydrothermal conditions are unfavorable for the growth of life (Miller and Bada, 1988).

In contrast to experimental studies, research on amino acids recovered from natural hydrothermal systems including fluids, sediments and rocks has been limited. Haberstroh and Karl (1989) determined the concentration of dissolved free amino acids (DFAAs) in hydrothermal fluids and pore waters of sediments collected from the Guaymas Basin in the East Pacific Rise, where beneath 500 m of sediment, hydrothermal systems actively discharge high temperature fluids > 300 °C. Small amount of DFAAs were detected (< 1 nM) in the hydrothermal fluids. The sediment pore water contained 5–445 μM DFAAs, with glutamic acid, glycine, serine and alanine being the most abundant amino acids. Andersson et al. (2000) measured the concentrations of amino acids in the hydrothermally altered sediments cored from the Juan de Fuca Ridge in the northeastern Pacific Ocean; the total hydrolysable amino acids (THAAs) in their samples was 100–2000 nmol/g, with glycine, alanine, serine and histidine as the major components. Takano et al. (2005a) studied amino acids in solid samples taken from the seafloor around a hydrothermal vent at Suiyo Seamount in the western Pacific Ocean; the concentrations of THAAs in the cored rocks and the chimneys were 26–107 nmol/g and 11–64 nmol/g, respectively. Hydrothermal fluids > 300 °C collected from the Suiyo Seamount hydrothermal vents contained 246–1163 nM THAAs, with abundant glycine and serine (Horiuchi et al., 2004). Highly concentrated amino acids were detected from low temperature hydrothermal fluids (42–89 °C) collected at Vulcano Island in Italy, and the highest amino acid concentrations were found at sites with relatively high temperature (82 °C), acidic (pH 2.0) and reducing conditions (Svensson et al., 2004).

Understanding the behavior of amino acids in natural hydrothermal systems is important to evaluate the thermal response of biomolecules and bioactivity in nature. In this study, samples from black and white smokers with temperatures > 200 °C were collected from active hydrothermal systems in the southern Mariana Trough. We determined the composition of THAAs and DFAAs, and cell density in these fluids and discuss the origins of amino acids."

 

[SavedByTheLord]

No not kidding. The amino acids are in high concentrations around the hydrothermal vents. Temperatures would be too high, over 200 degrees C in high-temperature hydrothermal vents themselves but abundant in the more suitable vents of lower temperatures. See bold in the following reference.


Many hydrothermal systems have been discovered in the world’s oceans since the first discovery at the Galapagos rift in 1977 (Weiss et al., 1977, Corliss et al., 1979). Seafloor hydrothermal fluids are physico-chemically distinct from seawater by having high temperatures, strongly reducing conditions and being enriched in heavy metal ions (Von Damm et al., 1985). Highly diverse ecosystems develop around hydrothermal vents, commonly in temperatures > 300 °C.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0146638013002520#:~:text=The%20amino%20acid%20polymers%20plausibly,(%3E%20200%20%C2%B0C).

The hydrothermal environment is postulated to have been the cradle of life on the primitive Earth (e.g., Miller and Bada, 1988, Holm, 1992). Previous studies revealed that the amino acids necessary to form life can be synthesized in laboratory-replicated hydrothermal conditions: large amounts of glycine, alanine and serine were produced when a solution containing aldehyde and ammonia was heated to 100–325 °C (Kamaluddin et al., 1979, Marshall, 1994, Aubrey et al., 2009). Protein formation processes have also been investigated based on the behavior of amino acids under hydrothermal conditions. Polymer balls of amino acids (0.3–2.5 μm) called marigranules were observed when amino acids were heated to 105 °C in an artificial hydrothermal solution that contained dissolved Mg, Ca, Mo, Zn, Fe, Cu, Mn and Co (Yanagawa and Egami, 1978). Short chained peptides were synthesized when a solution containing highly concentrated amino acids was heated in a flow reactor that simulated rapid heating and cooling conditions similar to those of hydrothermal vents (Imai et al., 1999, Cleaves et al., 2009). Although amino acid synthesis and oligomerization are promoted under hydrothermal conditions, the formation rates are very small and the concentrations of amino acids and peptides decrease because of rapid hydrolysis (Qian et al., 1993, Bada et al., 1995). Thermodynamic theories suggest that hydrothermal conditions are unfavorable for the growth of life (Miller and Bada, 1988).

In contrast to experimental studies, research on amino acids recovered from natural hydrothermal systems including fluids, sediments and rocks has been limited. Haberstroh and Karl (1989) determined the concentration of dissolved free amino acids (DFAAs) in hydrothermal fluids and pore waters of sediments collected from the Guaymas Basin in the East Pacific Rise, where beneath 500 m of sediment, hydrothermal systems actively discharge high temperature fluids > 300 °C. Small amount of DFAAs were detected (< 1 nM) in the hydrothermal fluids. The sediment pore water contained 5–445 μM DFAAs, with glutamic acid, glycine, serine and alanine being the most abundant amino acids. Andersson et al. (2000) measured the concentrations of amino acids in the hydrothermally altered sediments cored from the Juan de Fuca Ridge in the northeastern Pacific Ocean; the total hydrolysable amino acids (THAAs) in their samples was 100–2000 nmol/g, with glycine, alanine, serine and histidine as the major components. Takano et al. (2005a) studied amino acids in solid samples taken from the seafloor around a hydrothermal vent at Suiyo Seamount in the western Pacific Ocean; the concentrations of THAAs in the cored rocks and the chimneys were 26–107 nmol/g and 11–64 nmol/g, respectively. Hydrothermal fluids > 300 °C collected from the Suiyo Seamount hydrothermal vents contained 246–1163 nM THAAs, with abundant glycine and serine (Horiuchi et al., 2004). Highly concentrated amino acids were detected from low temperature hydrothermal fluids (42–89 °C) collected at Vulcano Island in Italy, and the highest amino acid concentrations were found at sites with relatively high temperature (82 °C), acidic (pH 2.0) and reducing conditions (Svensson et al., 2004).

Understanding the behavior of amino acids in natural hydrothermal systems is important to evaluate the thermal response of biomolecules and bioactivity in nature. In this study, samples from black and white smokers with temperatures > 200 °C were collected from active hydrothermal systems in the southern Mariana Trough. We determined the composition of THAAs and DFAAs, and cell density in these fluids and discuss the origins of amino acids."

A yet it is impossible fro a variety of reasons - the vast odds against a very large specific amino acid sequence, the fact that water would disperse any concentration of amino acids and other molecules needed, and the impossibility of all the millions of atoms of specific elements needed in an exact 3D position is space.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Read Genesis 1. You need help and the Bible has all the answers.

Where did the laws of nature come from?

Where did all matter come from? Where did antimatter?

Where did all energy come from?

Where did all the protons come from? neutrons? photons? neutrinos? All the quarks? Gluons? Muons? All the anti-particles?

Where did the gravitation force come from? The strong force? The weak force? The electromagnetic force?

Infinity to 0 against evolution the theory of nothing with their no god.

Absolutely none of this addresses my post.

 

[F1fan]

The oceans were frozen because of the faint young sun paradox
Also water would have washed away any concentration of amino acids

Since you don’t get science right cite an expert in science every time you make claims about nature. If you won’t then we have to reject your claim.

Do you have an expert in reputable science that backs you up?

 

[shunyadragon]

Still problems with that.
No matter what the first living creature was it would still need to have some building blocks which could form some protective layer to keep it from being dispersed by the water.
That is just one problem. There are more.

The hydrothermal vents were a constant source of Amino Acids and nutrients. Actually, nothing was being washed away at that depth. Everything was essentially deposited in the surrounding sediments and the walls of the hydrothermal vents.

We have answered all your mythical illusionary problems not based on science which you are intentionally ignorant of like AIG.