Qur'an 2:256 and the sophistry it inspires.

[TransmutingSoul]

The flaws and contradictions in the Qur'an are the bleedin' obvious to anyone who reads it objectively. Muslim don't.

Those flaws and contradictions are most likely born from one's own relative understanding.

God's Word, as contained in the Quran, has no flaws or contradictions.

There is no compulsion for you to accept that view.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

However, some fundamentalist schools of thought argue that the verse was later abrogated or that it only applies to People of the Book, which leaves room for forced conversion of pagans, atheists, etc.

Which group is this Debater Slayer?

 

[stevecanuck]

God's Word, as contained in the Quran, has no flaws or contradictions.

Here's an example for you. Allah said that he would never forgive a Muslim for turning his back on the enemy, but when it actually does happen, he forgives them. We apparently have different definitions of "contradiction".

 

[JerryMyers]

Here's an example for you. Allah said that he would never forgive a Muslim for turning his back on the enemy, but when it actually does happen, he forgives them. We apparently have different definitions of "contradiction".

Which passage(s) of the Quran gave you the impression that ‘Allah said that he would never forgive a Muslim for turning his back on the enemy, but when it actually does happen, he forgives them’??? Do you mind quoting those passage(s) to support your claim??

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Here's an example for you. Allah said that he would never forgive a Muslim for turning his back on the enemy, but when it actually does happen, he forgives them. We apparently have different definitions of "contradiction".

Context required. Also this stuff has been debated for centuries. So in the end, It is really not considering what is required to find peace in this age.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

The flaws and contradictions in the Qur'an are the bleedin' obvious to anyone who reads it objectively. Muslim don't.

Indeed.
The "literary miracle" of the Quran is a good example of this. Apologists claim that the Quran is miraculous, beyond the capacity of the human mind to produce, the most incredible literary work in history - and yet, these things are only apparent to Muslims, who already hold the position that the Quran is a miraculous work. They cite the passage where Allah challenges anyone to produce something similar as evidence, but the challenge is meaningless, a self-fulfilling prophesy. Who is to judge if another work is its equal or better? Muslims can't because their very faith depends on every challenger failing. Similarly no Muslim would ever accept a sceptic as judge.

I am not aware of any non-Muslim who claims the Quran could not have been written by man.

 

[KWED]

Those flaws and contradictions are most likely born from one's own relative understanding.

No True Scotsman, IOW.

Also, the same accusation can be levelled at your position that there are no flaws.

God's Word, as contained in the Quran, has no flaws or contradictions.

Have you read it? It is littered with flaws and contradictions.
Here's one. It describes Allah as "the most just" and also "the most merciful".
1. "The most x" means that it is not possible to be more x.
2. "Justice" is delivering the deserved punishment.
3. "Mercy" means delivering less punishment than is deserved.
4. Therefore the two concepts are mutually exclusive. If Allah is "most just" then he cannot show mercy, and vice versa.

There is no compulsion for you to accept that view.

Except Allah explains in gruesome detail the torture that awaits if I don't. Kinda like there is no compulsion to hand over my wallet to a mugger with a knife?

 

[KWED]

Context required.

Oh dear.
You cannot simply shout "But Context!" and expect it to be accepted as an argument. You have to explain what the context is and why it changes the apparent meaning of a passage.
Too many apologists think that a passage can be dismissed simply by invoking that magic word.
And yet when they quote passages in support of Islam, apparently no "context" is necessary. The passages simply stand on their own merit. Hmm...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Except Allah explains in gruesome detail the torture that awaits if I don't. Kinda like there is no compulsion to hand over my wallet to a mugger with a knife?

What many are not considering is that all those warnings are happening now, no need to wait.

It is the result of our lack of submission, a result of our own choices.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which passage(s) of the Quran gave you the impression that ‘Allah said that he would never forgive a Muslim for turning his back on the enemy, but when it actually does happen, he forgives them’??? Do you mind quoting those passage(s) to support your claim??

Oh dear.
You cannot simply shout "But Context!" and expect it to be accepted as an argument. You have to explain what the context is and why it changes the apparent meaning of a passage.
Too many apologists think that a passage can be dismissed simply by invoking that magic word.

I will read your reply.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

What many are not considering is that all those warnings are happening now, no need to wait.
It is the result of our lack of submission, a result of our own choices.

Whuh?
What does this have to do with my point?

No response to my showing a clear, logical contradiction in the Quran then?

 

[KWED]

I will read your reply.

Good. And hopefully you will respond to it as well and explain how "context" changes the apparent meaning of the passage in question.

(I am wondering if you have spotted your fatal mistake in this exchange yet?)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

(I am wondering if you have spotted your fatal mistake in this exchange yet?)

Yes indeed I have, being involved in it.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

Yes indeed I have, being involved in it.

Making an error is not a guarantee of realising you have made it (I'm sure we've all been there!)
But anyway, did you spot it before or after you made it?

 

[stevecanuck]

Which passage(s) of the Quran gave you the impression that ‘Allah said that he would never forgive a Muslim for turning his back on the enemy, but when it actually does happen, he forgives them’??? Do you mind quoting those passage(s) to support your claim??

8:15,16 - "O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. Whoso turns his back that day to them, unless withdrawing to fight again or removing to join another host, he is laden with the burden of God's anger, and his refuge is Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!"

3:152 is an unholy mess that makes excuses for the loss at Uhud. it says, "And Allah did indeed fulfil His Promise to you when you were killing them with His Permission; - (Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of Islam wash over us) - until you lost your courage and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed after He showed you [the booty] which you love. Among you are some that desire this world and some that desire the Hereafter. Then He made you flee from them (your enemy), that He might test you. But surely, He forgave you, and Allah is Most Gracious to the believers".

There are three more contradictions that are highlighted by that verse alone: 1. Whether Allah wants his fighters to seek war booty or not, 2. Who made them flee, and if it was Allah, why on earth would he have to forgive them for doing what he made them do?, and 3. Allah states several times that he knows what is in the heart of everyone, so why does he need to test anyone?. I'll start another thread or three on those topics later.

 

[KWED]

8:15,16 - "O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. Whoso turns his back that day to them, unless withdrawing to fight again or removing to join another host, he is laden with the burden of God's anger, and his refuge is Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!"

3:152 is an unholy mess that makes excuses for the loss at Uhud. it says, "And Allah did indeed fulfil His Promise to you when you were killing them with His Permission; - (Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of Islam wash over us) - until you lost your courage and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed after He showed you [the booty] which you love. Among you are some that desire this world and some that desire the Hereafter. Then He made you flee from them (your enemy), that He might test you. But surely, He forgave you, and Allah is Most Gracious to the believers".

There are three more contradictions that are highlighted by that verse alone: 1. Whether Allah wants his fighters to seek war booty or not, 2. Who made them flee, and if it was Allah, why on earth would he have to forgive them for doing what he made them do?, and 3. Allah states several times that he knows what in the heart of everyone, so why does he need to test anyone?. I'll start another thread or three on those topics later.

Another thing that always puzzles me is why so much of Allah's final, perfect, unchangeable guide for all people and all times is taken up with often lengthy and repetitive descriptions of past events - which apologists tell us are not relevant to later times.
Surely Allah could have made better use of the available space.

 

[JerryMyers]

8:15,16 - "O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. Whoso turns his back that day to them, unless withdrawing to fight again or removing to join another host, he is laden with the burden of God's anger, and his refuge is Gehenna -- an evil homecoming!"

You make it sounds as if a God should NEVER command anyone to go to wars under ANY circumstances. Wake up and understand the very nature of God!

God is Peace BUT man is NOT and that’s why we have wars. Wars are NOT made by God, wars are made by man.

God forbids cowardly retreats when you are fighting for the cause of God and against the unbelievers who are fighting you for your belief in God Almighty and that’s what Quran 8:15-16 is telling you.

3:152 is an unholy mess that makes excuses for the loss at Uhud. it says, "And Allah did indeed fulfill His Promise to you when you were killing them with His Permission; - (Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of Islam wash over us) - until you lost your courage and fell to disputing about the order, and disobeyed after He showed you [the booty] which you love. Among you are some that desire this world and some that desire the Hereafter. Then He made you flee from them (your enemy), that He might test you. But surely, He forgave you, and Allah is Most Gracious to the believers".

There are three more contradictions that are highlighted by that verse alone: 1. Whether Allah wants his fighters to seek war booty or not, 2. Who made them flee, and if it was Allah, why on earth would he have to forgive them for doing what he made them do?, and 3. Allah states several times that he knows what is in the heart of everyone, so why does he need to test anyone?.

The Muslims lost the Battle of Uhud because they disobeyed the orders of the Prophet and abandoned their posts for the booty and the lesson the Muslims can learn from this is – NEVER disobey the Prophet. Period.

And as for your sarcastic remark ‘(Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of Islam wash over us)’, it only tells me how lost you are with reality – this is wartime! When the US bomber plane dropped the H-Bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WW2 and killed millions of innocent civilians to the cheers of all Americans, do you think it was done without the permission of the then US President?? Are you also going to say ‘Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of America wash over us’ ?? How detached from reality can one be!!

And yes, why did Allah make them flee from their enemies in that battle? Well, if Allah had not made them flee, they would have been killed there and then and never fight for the cause of God again.

The phrase ‘until you lost courage’ is NOT a reference to cowardice but it means they lost their purpose when they saw the booty and started to quarrel among themselves as to whether to stay in their positions as per Muhammad’s order or abandon their posts and go for the booty. Logic and rational thinking should tell you if it refers to cowardice, then, they would have abandoned their posts there and then and not wasted any time arguing over Muhammad’s order.

In other words, they fled NOT because of cowardly retreats (which Allah forbids) they fled because God made them flee (as they were so preoccupied quarreling among themselves to understand the grave danger they are in) so that they can be saved and live to fight another day.

As for why Allah needs to test anyone, well, are you a Christian, Steve??

If you are, then you should refer yourself to Deuteronomy 8:2 – ‘You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not’.

If are not and you don’t believe in a Supreme Creator/God, then any explanation is not going to satisfy you.

I'll start another thread or three on those topics later.

Hooray! I can’t wait to show you how ignorant you are!!

 

[JerryMyers]

Another thing that always puzzles me is why so much of Allah's final, perfect, unchangeable guide for all people and all times is taken up with often lengthy and repetitive descriptions of past events - which apologists tell us are not relevant to later times.
Surely Allah could have made better use of the available space.

Have you read the New Testament?? You need FOUR gospels to tell similar stories over and over again… and you want to complain about ONE Quran??! Give me a break!

Then again, even if all the repetitive descriptions and phrases, man still doesn’t learn much and still follows the words of other people instead of the words of God and/or His prophets – now THAT always puzzles me!

 

[stevecanuck]

You make it sounds as if a God should NEVER command anyone to go to wars under ANY circumstances. Wake up and understand the very nature of God!

Wow, what the hell was that? Is the rest of your response going to be as non-linear?

God is Peace BUT man is NOT and that’s why we have wars. Wars are NOT made by God, wars are made by man.

God forbids cowardly retreats when you are fighting for the cause of God and against the unbelievers who are fighting you for your belief in God Almighty and that’s what Quran 8:15-16 is telling you.


The Muslims lost the Battle of Uhud because they disobeyed the orders of the Prophet and abandoned their posts for the booty and the lesson the Muslims can learn from this is – NEVER disobey the Prophet. Period.

And as for your sarcastic remark ‘(Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of Islam wash over us)’, it only tells me how lost you are with reality – this is wartime! When the US bomber plane dropped the H-Bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WW2 and killed millions of innocent civilians to the cheers of all Americans, do you think it was done without the permission of the then US President?? Are you also going to say ‘Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of America wash over us’ ?? How detached from reality can one be!!

And yes, why did Allah make them flee from their enemies in that battle? Well, if Allah had not made them flee, they would have been killed there and then and never fight for the cause of God again.

The phrase ‘until you lost courage’ is NOT a reference to cowardice but it means they lost their purpose when they saw the booty and started to quarrel among themselves as to whether to stay in their positions as per Muhammad’s order or abandon their posts and go for the booty. Logic and rational thinking should tell you if it refers to cowardice, then, they would have abandoned their posts there and then and not wasted any time arguing over Muhammad’s order.

In other words, they fled NOT because of cowardly retreats (which Allah forbids) they fled because God made them flee (as they were so preoccupied quarreling among themselves to understand the grave danger they are in) so that they can be saved and live to fight another day.

As for why Allah needs to test anyone, well, are you a Christian, Steve??

If you are, then you should refer yourself to Deuteronomy 8:2 – ‘You shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not’.

If are not and you don’t believe in a Supreme Creator/God, then any explanation is not going to satisfy you.


Hooray! I can’t wait to show you how ignorant you are!!

You have a nice day. I see no future in trying to converse with you.

 

[stanberger]

It's handy for us critics that Muslims claim the book is perfect and timeless. That makes the book easier to criticize.

So even if we take "no compulsion" at face value. We have to weigh that against the countless times that the book describes the literal hell fire that awaits non-believers. Seems coercive to me. And then we're told that non-believers can't fool Allah. We can pretend to be Muslims, but Allah will know if we're lying. (And BTW, you have to read only the first two Surahs to learn this.) So we're told over and over that Allah is merciful, but we're also told that he created non-believers to be irredeemably flawed and doomed. All nicely spelled out in the first handful of pages.

Good thing there is no compulsion!

god warns us the consequences of disbelief. so we put ourselves in lake of fire