Qur'an 2:256 and the sophistry it inspires.

[stanberger]

Here's an example for you. Allah said that he would never forgive a Muslim for turning his back on the enemy, but when it actually does happen, he forgives them. We apparently have different definitions of "contradiction".

a contradiction with merit is. o t ' god is one ' n t ' god is trinity trigod '

 

[stanberger]

Have you read the New Testament?? You need FOUR gospels to tell similar stories over and over again… and you want to complain about ONE Quran??! Give me a break!

Then again, even if all the repetitive descriptions and phrases, man still doesn’t learn much and still follows the words of other people instead of the words of God and/or His prophets – now THAT always puzzles me!

bart erman ' none of the 4 gospels were even written by any of the 4 apostles and were written in greek that no apostle spoke ' glad I left church for islam

 

[JerryMyers]

Wow, what the hell was that? Is the rest of your response going to be as non-linear?
You have a nice day. I see no future in trying to converse with you.

What the hell was that??? You mean you don’t even know what the hell you were commenting about??!!

And why can’t my responses be non-linear?? Is it because you have a one-track mind and you think everything about God is so straightforward and you have Him all figured out??

You have a nice day too, Steve...and please don’t comment or make sarcastic remarks on something that you have no knowledge about …especially on the Scripture of any Faith.

 

[KWED]

Have you read the New Testament?? You need FOUR gospels to tell similar stories over and over again… and you want to complain about ONE Quran??! Give me a break!

Why do apologists so often seem to find whataboutery such an attractive proposition?
Yes, the Bible is often repetitive and nonsensical - but it isn't claimed to be the final, infallible, revealed word of god. The Quran is, so your argument fails on that count as well.

If this was a thread about the Bible, perhaps it would be reasonable to bring up the Bible. However, as it is about the contents and nature of the Quran, may I suggest restricting your arguments to topic in hand? Just a thought.

Then again, even if all the repetitive descriptions and phrases, man still doesn’t learn much and still follows the words of other people instead of the words of God and/or His prophets – now THAT always puzzles me!

What you seem to be missing here is the fact that not everyone believes in the same version of god and the same holy texts - or even any at all. Given that, it is hardly surprising that not everyone follows the message of every religion. Even within a religion there is disagreement over what god actually meant. Pretty basic stuff, TBH.

If you are merely claiming that your preferred version is correct and everyone else's is wrong, I'd be interested to hear your supporting argument/evidence.

 

[KWED]

god warns us the consequences of disbelief. so we put ourselves in lake of fire

A mugger warns us of the consequences of not handing over our money - therefore any subsequent stabbing is reasonable and justified. Correct?

Also, why should eternal torture be the only possible response to disbelief? I have never heard a reasonable argument for that. Why is god so bothered? It suggests that he needs our worship for some reason - which is what the Quran says. He created mankind "only to worship him". Needy, much?

 

[JerryMyers]

bart erman ' none of the 4 gospels were even written by any of the 4 apostles and were written in greek that no apostle spoke ' glad I left church for islam

Of course, none of those gospels are written by their respective apostles! Why do you think each of those gospels begins with ‘According to ….’? Which author would write a book and begins with a statement according to himself??!

 

[JerryMyers]

Why do apologists so often seem to find whataboutery such an attractive proposition?
Yes, the Bible is often repetitive and nonsensical - but it isn't claimed to be the final, infallible, revealed word of god. The Quran is, so your argument fails on that count as well.

If this was a thread about the Bible, perhaps it would be reasonable to bring up the Bible. However, as it is about the contents and nature of the Quran, may I suggest restricting your arguments to topic in hand? Just a thought.

What you seem to be missing here is the fact that not everyone believes in the same version of god and the same holy texts - or even any at all. Given that, it is hardly surprising that not everyone follows the message of every religion. Even within a religion there is disagreement over what god actually meant. Pretty basic stuff, TBH.

If you are merely claiming that your preferred version is correct and everyone else's is wrong, I'd be interested to hear your supporting argument/evidence.

I am not missing anything. In case you forgot, you made a statement that you are puzzled about why the Quran is lengthy and repetitive of past events and I am just responding accordingly to that very statement of yours.

The Quran is said to be the Final Revelation from God because there's no other Revelation from God after the Quran. If you know of any other after the Quran, please let me know.

Yes, I am fully aware ‘that not everyone believes in the same version of god and the same holy texts - or even any at all’. If you ask me, I will say that’s even expected….

And it’s NOT a question of whether my version is correct and yours is wrong or vice-versa, it’s a question of the truth.

So if you are really interested to hear my supporting arguments/evidences of the truth as you said, then you need to tell me first what you really believe is the truth, instead of making baseless comments just to rile up the Muslims in this forum which, to me, is so childish.

 

[KWED]

You make it sounds as if a God should NEVER command anyone to go to wars under ANY circumstances. Wake up and understand the very nature of God!

Why should god get involved in politics at all?

God is Peace

Meaningless platitude - and demonstrably false.

BUT man is NOT and that’s why we have wars. Wars are NOT made by God, wars are made by man.

When god reveals so many passages about war, about fighting "in the way of Allah". Specifically saying to fight disbelievers until they submit to Islam - then you cannot claim that god has nothing to do with any wars.

God forbids cowardly retreats

Surely a subjective issue. One man's "cowardly retreat" is another man's "tactical withdrawal".
Also, I thought god isn't involved in making people fight.

when you are fighting for the cause of God

I thought you said no wars were fought because of god. Make your mind up!

and against the unbelievers who are fighting you for your belief in God Almighty and that’s what Quran 8:15-16 is telling you.

If you invade another country or attack another city, it is only reasonable for the inhabitants to defend themselves. You seem to be saying that god regards self-defence as an act of aggression against invaders - which is utterly bonkers.

The Muslims lost the Battle of Uhud because they disobeyed the orders of the Prophet and abandoned their posts for the booty and the lesson the Muslims can learn from this is – NEVER disobey the Prophet. Period.

So, Muhammad's example is universal and timeless?

And as for your sarcastic remark ‘(Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of Islam wash over us)’, it only tells me how lost you are with reality – this is wartime! When the US bomber plane dropped the H-Bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WW2 and killed millions of innocent civilians to the cheers of all Americans, do you think it was done without the permission of the then US President?? Are you also going to say ‘Let's pause here for a moment to let the love and peace of America wash over us’ ?? How detached from reality can one be!!

Indeed. The dropping of the A bombs (not H) on civilian targets would almost certainly be regarded as a war crime today. As would some of the stuff Muhammad did. The difference is that today we can criticise and condemn the actions of the US then, but you cannot criticise or condemn the actions of Muhammad and the sahabah. You have to try and defend and justify their war crimes. Which is quite sad.

And yes, why did Allah make them flee from their enemies in that battle? Well, if Allah had not made them flee, they would have been killed there and then and never fight for the cause of God again.

But the Quran says that it is a great thing to die fighting in Allah's cause. There are special rewards in jannah.

As for why Allah needs to test anyone, If you don’t believe in a Supreme Creator/God, then any explanation is not going to satisfy you.

That sounds like a bit of a cop-out.
It is logically impossible for an infallibly omniscient god to "test" anyone because a test is "a procedure to establish information that is not known", and there is nothing that god does not know.
However, I will be happy to examine any explanation that you present, and we can see if it resolves the apparent paradox.

 

[KWED]

bart erman ' none of the 4 gospels were even written by any of the 4 apostles and were written in greek that no apostle spoke ' glad I left church for islam

There were 12 apostles, not four. I was not aware that people claim the gospels were written by the apostles. What is your source for this?

 

[KWED]

I am not missing anything. In case you forgot, you made a statement that you are puzzled about why the Quran is lengthy and repetitive of past events and I am just responding accordingly to that very statement of yours.

But your response was meaningless because you merely observed that the Bible is also repetitive of past events. I didn't ask about the Bible. Are you suggesting that the Quran merely copied the Bibles, which is why there are similarities?

My point was about why a book that is meant to be the final, perfect, unchangeable guide for all people and all times, spends so much time describing past events that apologists tell us have no bearing on life today. You didn't respond to that at all.

The Quran is said to be the Final Revelation from God because there's no other Revelation from God after the Quran.

This is another assertion I find somewhat puzzling.
You do not know the future. You do not know the mind of god, yet you claim with absolute certainly that god will never send another revelation. How can you possibly know this? Presumably Allah is not constrained by anything so what he said 1400 years ago is not final and binding.
Or are you claiming that god cannot change his mind, that he is restricted by his own statements?

If you know of any other after the Quran, please let me know.

Bahaullah claimed to have received revelations from god. So did Joseph Smith. Remember we only have Muhammad's word that the Quran came from god, so to the impartial observer, there is no real difference in the claims.

And it’s NOT a question of whether my version is correct and yours is wrong or vice-versa, it’s a question of the truth.

The two things are synonymous. If it is true, it is right. If it is false, it is wrong.

So if you are really interested to hear my supporting arguments/evidences of the truth as you said,

I did not say that. I said...
"If you are merely claiming that your preferred version is correct and everyone else's is wrong, I'd be interested to hear your supporting argument/evidence."
I accept that you believe your beliefs are the "the truth". I want to know why you believe that.

then you need to tell me first what you really believe is the truth,

No I don't. You claim that Islam is the one true religion and every other religion is wrong. I just want to know why you think that. What I think is completely irrelevant.

instead of making baseless comments just to rile up the Muslims in this forum which, to me, is so childish.

I don't do that. I present rational and evidence-based arguments, referencing scripture and other sources, to challenge the clams and beliefs of others. I understand that you may not like me doing that, but that is not my concern. I am here to debate. If you don't feel you are able to, so be it. You wouldn't be the first and won't be the last.

 

[stevecanuck]

A mugger warns us of the consequences of not handing over our money - therefore any subsequent stabbing is reasonable and justified. Correct?

Also, why should eternal torture be the only possible response to disbelief? I have never heard a reasonable argument for that. Why is god so bothered? It suggests that he needs our worship for some reason - which is what the Quran says. He created mankind "only to worship him". Needy, much?

The thing that makes zero sense regarding the whole burn-in-hell-forever threat is that nobody volunteered to be born and therefore be forced into making a decision that could result in endless torture at the hands of Allah The Merciful, The Compassionate. We were all dragged into this world kicking and screaming (literally), so how can anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together think it's fair that we have to make a choice that's going to affect us for eternity without giving us more to go on than the word of some dudes who lived millennia ago?

 

[stevecanuck]

Bahaullah claimed to have received revelations from god. So did Joseph Smith. Remember we only have Muhammad's word that the Quran came from god, so to the impartial observer, there is no real difference in the claims.

Not to mention the likes of Falwell and Oral Roberts.

 

[icehorse]

god warns us the consequences of disbelief. so we put ourselves in lake of fire

The Quran tells us that if - in our hearts - we disbelieve, we cannot fool Allah. Even if we say we believe, he'll know we're lying.

Isn't that what the Quran tells us?

 

[icehorse]

Why do apologists so often seem to find whataboutery such an attractive proposition?

Maybe because Abrahamic scripture is so hard to defend logically?

 

[KWED]

The thing that makes zero sense regarding the whole burn-in-hell-forever threat is that nobody volunteered to be born and therefore be forced into making a decision that could result in endless torture at the hands of Allah The Merciful, The Compassionate. We were all dragged into this world kicking and screaming (literally), so how can anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together think it's fair that we have to make a choice that's going to affect us for eternity without giving us more to go on than the word of some dudes who lived millennia ago?

Of course, some apologists claim that at the time of creation, Allah asked everyone to submit to him, which we did, there becoming Muslims (which is why they like to call converts "reverts"). He then wiped our memory of the event but we are still expected to behave as if we remember it all. So Allah gets cross when we break our oath, which we have no recollection of making and probably made it under duress/false pretences. Or something like that. It really is truly baffling.

 

[JerryMyers]

Why should god get involved in politics at all?

Why not?? The basic definition of politics is about living together and making decisions. Since God is the Supreme Creator, why wouldn’t He give His creation, Man the guidance of the do’s and the don’ts and make better decisions?? You can say God’s Revelation to Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad is like a manual on how Man should lead his life on earth and how to achieve everlasting life in the afterlife. When a new invention hit the stores, don’t you expect it comes with a manual??

Meaningless platitude - and demonstrably false.

So said you…. which itself is a meaningless platitude and demonstrably false.

When god reveals so many passages about war, about fighting "in the way of Allah". Specifically saying to fight disbelievers until they submit to Islam - then you cannot claim that god has nothing to do with any wars.

God revealing so many passages about wars of the past DOES NOT mean God started all those wars – that’s like saying the author who wrote a history of past wars started those wars or has something to do with those wars!

Surely a subjective issue. One man's "cowardly retreat" is another man's "tactical withdrawal".
Also, I thought god isn't involved in making people fight.

Yes, subjective issue IF you don’t know the cause. In Quran 3:152, it’s clearly stated God made them flee from that battle, so it’s not a cowardly retreat as it was not on their own initiative but God made them flee to save them from being slaughtered.

I thought you said no wars were fought because of god. Make your mind up!

Fighting in the way of God is very different from fighting because of God.

‘Fighting because of God’ would mean you do not know why you are fighting but you fight because God told you to fight, which is NOT the case. A good example of this is many Russian soldiers do not know why they are fighting the Ukrainians but they find themselves in battles with the Ukrainians because Putin commanded them so. In other words, they fight because of Putin.

‘Fighting in the way of God’ means you are practicing the way of life as prescribed by God (eg, praying 5 times a day, fasting in the month of Ramadan, and so on) but some groups took offense at your way of life and when this escalates to actual fighting, then, it’s said you are fighting in the way of God as you are defending your right to be a practicing Muslim.

So, yes, no wars were fought because of God and I did not change my mind on that.

If you invade another country or attack another city, it is only reasonable for the inhabitants to defend themselves. You seem to be saying that god regards self-defence as an act of aggression against invaders - which is utterly bonkers.

I never say nor imply that God regards self-defense as an act of aggression although an act of aggression can be an act of self-defense, like when the hunter became the hunted.

So, Muhammad's example is universal and timeless?

Like what example are you referring to? The advice of never disobeying the Prophet (or for that matter, any prophets of God) is universal and timeless.

Indeed. The dropping of the A bombs (not H) on civilian targets would almost certainly be regarded as a war crime today. As would some of the stuff Muhammad did. The difference is that today we can criticise and condemn the actions of the US then, but you cannot criticise or condemn the actions of Muhammad and the sahabah. You have to try and defend and justify their war crimes. Which is quite sad.

It's not that you cannot criticize the actions of Muhammad, the fact is, there is nothing you can criticize him about!

All the criticisms that you read and heard are from the haters of Muhammad and Islam, and this has been happening since the 7th century! Nothing new nor is it alarming…. It’s like getting used to hearing Trump and his supporters shouting the last presidential election was rigged and Biden did not win and in both cases just wild claims and zero evidence.

However, there are also many non-Muslims who are unbiased and recognize the greatness of Muhammad. Here are 2 of these folks:
1. Pringle Kennedy (Arabian Society at the Time of Muhammad, pp.8, 10, 18, 21):

Muhammad was, to use a striking expression, the man of the hour. In order to understand his wonderful success, one must study the conditions of his times…..

….. How, in a few years, all this was changed, how, by 650 AD a great part of this world became a different world from what it had been before, is one of the most remarkable chapters in human history …. This wonderful change followed, if it was not mainly caused by, the life of one man, the Prophet of Mecca ….

2. Michael H Hart in his book, The 100, has ranked the great men in history with respect to their influence on human history. He ranked the Holy Prophet Muhammad as the most influential man in human history. He wrote the following about the Holy Prophet Muhammad, “My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world’s most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels”.

But the Quran says that it is a great thing to die fighting in Allah's cause. There are special rewards in jannah.

Again, displaying zero knowledge of Islam.

Yes, it’s considered honorable to die fighting in Allah’s cause, but that does NOT mean you intentionally allow the enemies to slay you – that’s suicide!! If you do that, chances are you will end up in Hell as committing suicide is a serious sin in Islam.

That sounds like a bit of a cop-out.

No, it's not. Refusing to reveal what you believe in as the truth IS a cop-out. Period.

It is logically impossible for an infallibly omniscient god to "test" anyone because a test is "a procedure to establish information that is not known", and there is nothing that god does not know.
However, I will be happy to examine any explanation that you present, and we can see if it resolves the apparent paradox.

Let me ask you a simple question – Why do you think students must sit for tests to graduate when the answers to those test questions are easily accessible or already known to the examiners who mark those test papers anyway??

 

[JerryMyers]

But your response was meaningless because you merely observed that the Bible is also repetitive of past events. I didn't ask about the Bible.

Your original comment which was an observation too was ONLY about repetitive verses/passages in the Quran, so, I made a similar observation too about the Bible, in case you missed that the Bible too has repetitive verses/passages. Did I quote any Biblical verses? No. It was simply to show you the similarities, so what’s the big deal about the Quran having repetitive verses/passages when other scriptures like the Bible have repetitive verses/passages – that’s the point!

Are you suggesting that the Quran merely copied the Bibles, which is why there are similarities?

Typical response from someone who doesn’t understand Islam and just trying to belittle the Quran.

Similarities between the Quran and the Bible do NOT mean the Quran copied the Bible, it means the Quran is confirming those passages of the Bible (that the Quran repeated) as true. If someone wrote an article about the Titanic and wrote the ship sank after hitting an iceberg, and years later someone else wrote another article about the Titanic and also wrote the ship sank after hitting an iceberg, thus that means he was copying from the first writer?? Obviously not as the second writer is confirming the fact and what the first writer wrote.

My point was about why a book that is meant to be the final, perfect, unchangeable guide for all people and all times, spends so much time describing past events that apologists tell us have no bearing on life today. You didn't respond to that at all.

And who are these so-called apologists? Care to share who they are and their writings??

This is another assertion I find somewhat puzzling.
You do not know the future. You do not know the mind of god, yet you claim with absolute certainly that god will never send another revelation. How can you possibly know this? Presumably Allah is not constrained by anything so what he said 1400 years ago is not final and binding.

What’s so puzzling about that?? But if you do find another Revelation from God and He reveals that to some lucky chap and all religious Muslim and Christian scholars are in consensus agreement that is true, you let me know.

Or are you claiming that god cannot change his mind, that he is restricted by his own statements?

Question is – why would God change His Mind??

Bahaullah claimed to have received revelations from god. So did Joseph Smith. Remember we only have Muhammad's word that the Quran came from god, so to the impartial observer, there is no real difference in the claims.

Many people claimed they received revelation from God, but none have been proven legit. How do you think cults came to existence??

The two things are synonymous. If it is true, it is right. If it is false, it is wrong.

No, not really. The truth is always right because it came from God, but the right (which is a question from whose perspective) is NOT necessarily the truth.

I did not say that. I said...
"If you are merely claiming that your preferred version is correct and everyone else's is wrong, I'd be interested to hear your supporting argument/evidence."
I accept that you believe your beliefs are the "the truth". I want to know why you believe that.

You cannot go to a person and said “I don’t believe in your speech this morning. I want to know why you said what you said!”. You need to be specific about which part of his speech you don’t like. Likewise, you cannot come to me and demand you want to know why I believe that when I am not sure which ‘that’ are you talking about.

So the real question is – which one of my beliefs do you perceive as NOT the truth and can you back up what you perceived as not the truth?

No I don't.

Why won't you even reveal what you believe in?? Sounds like a cop-out to me.

You claim that Islam is the one true religion and every other religion is wrong. I just want to know why you think that. What I think is completely irrelevant.

Why would you say that? Of course, knowing what you believe is relevant to me, or else I am wasting time explaining to someone about God when that someone may not believe in God, to begin with – that’s like doing card tricks in front of someone who turns out to be totally blind!

I don't do that. I present rational and evidence-based arguments, referencing scripture and other sources, to challenge the clams and beliefs of others.

That’s a laugh!! What ‘rational and evident-based, referencing scripture and other sources’ arguments have you presented so far??? Please refresh my memory!

I understand that you may not like me doing that, but that is not my concern. I am here to debate. If you don't feel you are able to, so be it. You wouldn't be the first and won't be the last.

Errrr..I may not like you doing what exactly?? You mean like demonstrating your ignorance and zero knowledge of Islam and the Quran. You wouldn't be the first and won't be the last.

 

[stevecanuck]

Yes, subjective issue IF you don’t know the cause. In Quran 3:152, it’s clearly stated God made them flee from that battle, so it’s not a cowardly retreat as it was not on their own initiative but God made them flee to save them from being slaughtered.

Could you please explain the rest of 3:152?

After, "Then He made you flee from them (your enemy), that He might test you", it says, "But surely, He forgave you". What did he forgive them for?

 

[JerryMyers]

Could you please explain the rest of 3:152?

After, "Then He made you flee from them (your enemy), that He might test you", it says, "But surely, He forgave you". What did he forgive them for?

Allah forgave them for disobeying the order of the Prophet.
It’s stated in the Quran - “He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah” – Quran 4:80

 

[stevecanuck]

Allah forgave them for disobeying the order of the Prophet.
It’s stated in the Quran - “He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah” – Quran 4:80

Except in this case. The qur'an also tells us that they were running away "while the prophet called them from behind".

Therefore, they had to disobey the prophet in order to obey Allah. This episode also brings up the question of why Mohamed didn't know that Allah had caused his troops to flee. The more you study the qur'an, the less sense it makes.