qur'an burning in Florida

[AxisMundi]

To address the original topic of this thread, I just wanted to point out that it is incorrect to compare the attack on 9/11 with the Oklahoma bombing.

While Timothy McVeigh was a Catholic, he did not explode his bomb in the name of Catholicism. The Muslim extremists did, in fact, attack the infidel United States in the name of their beloved Islamic religion. Indeed, this attack inspired the widespread contempt for the religion of Islam that so many people harbour to this day.

But do not forget for one minute that the seemingly benign Catholic religion is no better. When it enjoyed the same theocratic stranglehold over it subjects as Islam enjoys today, it was no less bloodthirsty and intolerant.

Fortunately, democracy prevails over theocracy in North America and the terrible oppression of the Catholic Church's rule has been greatly reduced. (Although its disregard for molesting children, its contempt for homosexuals, its regard for women as second class, its obstruction of birth control to third world counties, are only some of the remnants of its previous glory days.)

The attack on 9/11 was nothing more and nothing less than a religiously inspired act of retaliation against the perceived "infidel nation" of the United States of America.

While the individuals who carried out this violent plan are considered "extremists", it is relevant to note that their beloved prophet, Muhammad, who single handedly created the Koran, was no less an extremist. He was a ruthless military commander who initiated merciless raids and wars against innocent peoples whom, he alone, judged to be infidels. Terrible atrocities are described in graphic detail in historical accounts of his reign of terror. For the reader not familiar with the religion of Islam, it is critical to understand that while the Koran is the Muslims' holy book, considered to be the word of god spoken directly through Muhammad, there is another book that is considered essential reading in order to fully appreciate the Koran—the Hadith. This account focuses on the life and actions of Muhammad. It is considered the model of behaviour to which every Muslim should aspire.

So if the 9/11 terrorists are to be condemned for their extremist acts of terror, I must point out that their prophet was an excellent role model and a most inspiring teacher.

Both attacks are politically inspired. 9/11 was in retaliation for the percieved US meddling in ME affairs and our support (now fading, thankfully) for Israel.

Your comments also ignore the plethora of Christian terrorists whose agendas are politically based, but the Christian terrorists who do, in fact, kill in the name of their god as well.

The Army of God comes to mind right away, a domestic terrorist group responsible for murders, fire bombings, and other terrorist tactics directed at abortion providers and politicians who support Choice.

And the Liberation Front of Tripura, listed in the Top Ten, fight for a Christian homeland where their religion will act as government.

 

[DeitySlayer]

Pastor Terry Jones: "We's going to burn ourselves some Ko-rans! I'm not all that sure what a Ko-ran is...I think it's something to do with I-ran...but we will not let them there Moo-slims come and take our God-given land of America! Don't nobody tell me them Moo-slims don't understand no show of force. I got Jethro up on that there roof with a gun and they never crashed no jumbo jets into our church tower. They try bringing their barbaric laws into our town, we's gonna cut their heads off!"

NB: He might not have actually said that.

 

[Kathryn]

Both attacks are politically inspired. 9/11 was in retaliation for the percieved US meddling in ME affairs and our support (now fading, thankfully) for Israel.

Your comments also ignore the plethora of Christian terrorists whose agendas are politically based, but the Christian terrorists who do, in fact, kill in the name of their god as well.

The Army of God comes to mind right away, a domestic terrorist group responsible for murders, fire bombings, and other terrorist tactics directed at abortion providers and politicians who support Choice.

And the Liberation Front of Tripura, listed in the Top Ten, fight for a Christian homeland where their religion will act as government.

There is no other group of religious fundamentalists that are wreaking havoc worldwide as radical Islamists are.

That's the 21st century reality we are all having to deal with.

 

[AxisMundi]

There is no other group of religious fundamentalists that are wreaking havoc worldwide as radical Islamists are.

That's the 21st century reality we are all having to deal with.

Firstly, there is no one Islamic terrorist group "wreaking havoc across the world".

Secondly, there are indeed dozens of active Christian terrorist groups operating world wide, just as disorganized as the Muslims.

These include, but are not limited to...

Army of God.
National Liberation Front of Tripura.
Lords Resistance Army.
Sons of Freedom.
National Socialist Council of Nagaland.
Both sides of the Ireland Conflict.
Russian National Unity.
Christian Identity.
Lambs of Christ.
Christian Patriots.
Klu Klux Klan.
Aryan Nations.
Concerned Christians.
Phineas Priesthood.
The Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord.

While some of these groups are not still active, or as active as they were in they were in the past, many are still quite active.

The National Liberation Front of Tripura, for example, is listed by the National Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism as one of the top ten most active terrorist groups in the world.

The simple fact is that all religions have their fanatical groups that conduct terrorist actions and activities.

The other simple fact is, Christianity and Islam both share the dubious honor of having the most, and most active, terrorist groups worldwide.

 

[waitasec]

There is no other group of religious fundamentalists that are wreaking havoc worldwide as radical Islamists are.

That's the 21st century reality we are all having to deal with.

you might want to re-word that to radical extremists... period.

 

[andys]

AxisMundi
I am not sure what your reply to my post was intended to convey.
It appears you are dissatisfied with my criticism of the now defunct Christian theocracy, since I did not include reference to certain Christian terrorist groups. I fail to see the connection, but appreciate your taking the time to provide a list of them. These and all other religious terrorist groups are, as I argued in my post, the inevitable outcome of intolerance which a religion inevitably spawns.

You echo this point when you wrote:

"The simple fact is that all religions have their fanatical groups that conduct terrorist actions and activities."

and again,

"The other simple fact is, Christianity and Islam both share the dubious honor of having the most, and most active, terrorist groups worldwide."

I do contest your attributing the attack on 9/11 to be politically motivated. No doubt the political climate greatly contributed to the terrorists' dissatisfaction with the infidel enemy, but there is no doubt that these Muslim extremists were acting out their conviction in accordance with their intolerant religion which perceives the United States to be an enemy of Islam.

In fairness to your viewpoint, I must point out that to a Muslim, politics and religion are intertwined, if not one and the same, thus making this area of disagreement between you and me a moot point.

 

[Kathryn]

Nope, I will not reword my original statement. There is NO OTHER RELIGION in the 21st century with such a radical fringe which wreaks such catastrophic havoc at the cost of human lives as radical Islam. It's an inconvenient, politically incorrect TRUTH. Radical Islamists kill and maim thousands of people through acts of terrorism world wide every year. Sad but true.

 

[waitasec]

Nope, I will not reword my original statement. There is NO OTHER RELIGION in the 21st century with such a radical fringe which wreaks such catastrophic havoc at the cost of human lives as radical Islam. It's an inconvenient, politically incorrect TRUTH. Radical Islamists kill and maim thousands of people through acts of terrorism world wide every year. Sad but true.

oh yes, the bravery of being out of range
out of sight out of mind

what about the pope during WW2?
silence...
what about the children that are being tried as witched in the name of christianity?


Chistian Atrocities of the 20th & 21st Centuries - Atheism vs Christianity | Google Groups
Efraín Ríos Montt--
President of Guatemala EfraÃ*n RÃ*os Montt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atrocities:
Two Truth Commissions, documented widespread human rights abuses committed by his military regime, including massacres, rape, torture, and acts of genocide against the indigenous population
His military regime was responsible in some of the worst atrocities of Guatemala's 36-year civil war (Guatemalan Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) one of the most violent in modern history. At least 200,000 were killed.
An estimated 50,000 leftists and political opponents were murdered in 1970s.
UN-backed official Truth Commission (the Historical Clarification Commission) maintained that there was a campaign of deliberate genocide against the Mayan ingenious population and perhaps as many as one million forced from their homes and many were put in re-education concentration camps and to put to work in the fields of Guatemalan land barons.
Religion: "Born Again" Evangelical Pentecostal (raised Roman Catholic)
He left the Roman Catholic Church to became a minister in the California-based evangelical/pentecostal Church of the Word and is personal friends with Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.
His brother Mario Rios Montt is a Catholic bishop, suceeding the Bishop Gerardi (possibly assassinated) as head of the human rights commission charged with uncovering the truth of the disappearances associated with the Guatemalan military and his brother.
Drawing on his pentecostal beliefs, Ríos Montt invoked a modern apocalyptic vision comparing the four riders of the Book of Revelation to the four modern evils of hunger, misery, ignorance and subversion, as well as fighting corruption and what he described as the depredations of the rich. He said that the true Christian had the Bible in one hand and a machine gun in the other. (from EfraÃ*n RÃ*os Montt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Leopold II of Belgium
Leopold II of Belgium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Artocities
The founder and sole owner of the Congo Free State (Congo Free State - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) now known as the Democratic Republic of the Congo. He relied on forced labor for the extraction of rubber and ivory from the Congo which resulted in the deaths, torture and maiming of millions of Congolese.
The Force Publique was an army that was used to enforce the rubber quotas. Officers were white and soldiers were black, many were from the fierce cannibal tribes but others were kidnapped in their childhood and raised in Roman Catholic missions, where they received a military training in conditions close to slavery. They took and tortured hostages, flogged, and raped the natives, burned recalcitrant villages, and took human hands as trophies (they required soldiers to submit one hand for every bullet spent) on the orders of white officers to show that bullets hadn't been wasted and soldiers were paid their bonuses on the basis of how many hands they collected.
Religion: Roman Catholic

Jorge Rafael Videla--Argentina
Jorge Rafael Videla - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atrocities:
Linked to the Argentine Anticommunist Alliance (Argentine Anticommunist Alliance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) death squad
Estimates of at least 8,960 and up to about 30,000 Argentinians disappeared (desaparecidos) and most probably killed in the "Dirty War" (Dirty War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Participated in Operation Condor (see Pinochet)
Religion: Roman Catholic?
Received support from the Argentine Roman Catholic Church

Hugo Banzer--Bolivia
Hugo Banzer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atrocities
Estimates of several thousand Bolivians in political exile, 3,000 political opponents arrested, 200 killed, and many tortured, others simply disappeared
Participated in Operation Condor (see Pinochet)
Religion: Roman Catholic?
Alfredo Stroessner--Paraguay
Alfredo Stroessner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atrocities
Participated in Operation Condor (see Pinochet)
Under Stroessner Paraguay became a haven for Nazi war criminals
Indigenous peoples were persecuted the most famous being the Aché tribe that were subject to genocide, enslavement, kidnapping, torture, rape and many other crimes and indignations (Aché - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
Religion: Roman Catholic?
Johnny Paul Koroma--
head of the Armed Forces Revolutionary Council of Sierra Leone Johnny Paul Koroma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atrocities
Led RUF and AFRC, under the orders of Koroma, led armed attacks in Sierra Leone wherein the primary targets included civilians, humanitarian aid workers, and UN peacekeeping forces that included looting, murder, physical violence, mutilations (amputations), child soldiers, rape, as well as kidnapping women and girls to be sex slaves.
Indicted by the Special Court for Sierra Leone for crimes against humanity, war crimes and other serious violations of international humanitarian law (See also Charles Taylor)
Religion: Christian (unknown denomination)
Yakubu Gowon
--President of Nigeria Yakubu Gowon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atrocities:
Gowon's division of the 3 Nigerian regions into 12 states was a trigger for Biafra to attempt secession and would lead to the Biafran or Nigerian Civil War (Nigerian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and the deaths of more than 100,000 soldiers and over a million civilians many due to starvation under a Nigerian blockade. It is claimeded that his army committed atrocities such as rape, wholesale executions of civilian populations and extensive looting and that the Nigerian Air Force targed civilian populations, relief centers and marketplaces.
Religion: Christian (Anglican?)
His parents were missionaries for the Church Missionary Society, a group of evangelistic societies of the Anglican Church and other Protestant churches.
Jean-Bédel Bokassa--
Emperor of Central Africa Jean-Bédel Bokassa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Atrocities:
Riots in Bangui led to a massacre of around 100 civilians and a number of schoolchildren were arrested for protesting against wearing the expensive, government-required school uniforms.
Possible ties to "blood diamond" trade.
He was arrested and tried for treason, murder, cannibalism and embezzlement. He was cleared of the cannibalism charges but was sentenced to death on June 12, 1987.
Religion: Roman Catholic
He was educated by Catholic missionaries but soon became a soldier.
Breifly decided to convert to Islam and changed his name to Salah Eddine Ahmed Bokassa probably an attempt to get Libyan financial aid from Moammar al-Qadhafi. When no funds were forthcoming, he abandoned his new faith. He then converted back to Catholicism and had himself crowned in the Catholic cathedral in Bangui which cost over $20 million, consuming one third of the C.A.R.'s annual budget and all of France's aid that year.
At the end of his life he proclaimed himself the 13th Apostle and claimed to have secret meetings with the Pope.
Robert Mugabe--
President of Zimbabwe Robert Mugabe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Has been criticised for corruption, suppression of political opposition, mishandling of land reforresistance from Ndebele groups in the provinces of Matabeleland and the Midlands.
During the Gukurahundi (Gukurahundi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) ethnic massacres more than 20,000 Ndebele civilians were killed by the North-Korean trained 5th Brigade.
Mugabe has waged a violent campaign against homosexuals and parliament introduced legislation banning homosexual acts. human rights abuses and racist policies. It is said that his economic policies have led to collapse and massive starvation.
He has been accused of committing mass murder between 1982 and 1985 when the military crushed armed resistance from Ndebele groups in the provinces of Matabeleland and the Midlands
Religion: Roman Catholic
Mugabe was raised as a Roman Catholic, studying in Marist Brothers and Jesuit schools, including the exclusive Kutama College.

 

[Kathryn]

I said - There is NO OTHER RELIGION in the 21st century with such a radical fringe which wreaks such catastrophic havoc at the cost of human lives as radical Islam. It's an inconvenient, politically incorrect TRUTH. Radical Islamists kill and maim thousands of people through acts of terrorism world wide every year. Sad but true.

 

[tomasortega]

Nope, I will not reword my original statement. There is NO OTHER RELIGION in the 21st century with such a radical fringe which wreaks such catastrophic havoc at the cost of human lives as radical Islam. It's an inconvenient, politically incorrect TRUTH. Radical Islamists kill and maim thousands of people through acts of terrorism world wide every year. Sad but true.

your avatar is smoking hot. i wish more 40+ women looked so good. sad but true :flirt:

 

[waitasec]

I said - There is NO OTHER RELIGION in the 21st century with such a radical fringe which wreaks such catastrophic havoc at the cost of human lives as radical Islam. It's an inconvenient, politically incorrect TRUTH. Radical Islamists kill and maim thousands of people through acts of terrorism world wide every year. Sad but true.

:ignore:
you are obviously suffering from
islamophobia
not surprising though, since christianity feeds off of fear...

 

[tomasortega]

:ignore:
you are obviously suffering from
islamophobia
not surprising though, since christianity feeds off of fear...

i actually have to agree with her on this one. to me christianity's violent past has in one form or another become islam's violent present.

 

[waitasec]

i actually have to agree with her on this one. to me christianity's violent past has in one form or another become islam's violent present.

religion is dangerous. period.

neither of these religions is "less"violent.

you don't think mother theresa was violent when denying the poor people condoms in india?

sure the religious right would protest the dropping of condoms but say nothing when dropping napalm...

 

[gnostic]

To tmTheMaN:

If you want to apply the "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" justice/revenge, then all you need to do is burn some bibles.

 

[Kathryn]

:ignore:
you are obviously suffering from
islamophobia
not surprising though, since christianity feeds off of fear...

First of all, I'm not suffering from much of anything - unless of course, you count longsuffering patience when it comes to enduring ignorance like this quote showcases.

I am realistic when it comes to terrorism and it's impact worldwide -and I am realistic about the sources of that terrorism.

You can blame "the West" or US policy or Christianity or whatever you want, in order to try to cast blame on the actions of radical Muslims worldwide - but the entire history of radical Muslims, as well as their present actions, are warlike, violent, and terroristic in nature, independent of Christianity, western values, you name it. Their modus operandum is violence and terrorism and apparently any excuse will do.

 

[waitasec]

First of all, I'm not suffering from much of anything - unless of course, you count longsuffering patience when it comes to enduring ignorance like this quote showcases.

I am realistic when it comes to terrorism and it's impact worldwide -and I am realistic about the sources of that terrorism.

You can blame "the West" or US policy or Christianity or whatever you want, in order to try to cast blame on the actions of radical Muslims worldwide - but the entire history of radical Muslims, as well as their present actions, are warlike, violent, and terroristic in nature, independent of Christianity, western values, you name it. Their modus operandum is violence and terrorism and apparently any excuse will do.

here are some headlines for you...

Petraeus Explicitly Compares Extreme Religious Right To Taliban


Religious right asks God to forgive Minnesota for electing a Muslim


Growing Number of Americans Say Obama is a Muslim - Pew Research Center
(so what if he were?)

The racist crusade against Muslims

Fischer: Muslims Are Stupid and Violent Because of Inbreeding
"So let me ask again why conservative leaders like Newt Gingrich, Bob McDonnell, and Mike Huckabee are so willing to share the stage with a viciously anti-Muslim bigot like Bryan Fischer at the upcoming Values Voter Summit?"

did you forget about the japanese internment camps during wwii?
you think this nation has learned anything from that dark period?

muslims are being demonized, well then so should christianity...
religion is dangerous

 

[Kathryn]

Well, if we're just going to showcase human stupidity and dangerous trends and series of events by googling, here are a few for you:

List of battles and other violent events by death toll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Genocides in history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mass killings under Communist regimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many of these mass killings had absolutely nothing to do with religion - a fine point somewhat lost on the victims.

 

[andys]

Wait a second, Waitasec!

How tedious that every time someone expresses their (justified) negative views against Islam, they are automatically labeled "Islamophobic".

I suppose Jews who oppose Nazis are "Naziphobic".

 

[waitasec]

Well, if we're just going to showcase human stupidity and dangerous trends and series of events by googling, here are a few for you:

List of battles and other violent events by death toll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Genocides in history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mass killings under Communist regimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many of these mass killings had absolutely nothing to do with religion - a fine point somewhat lost on the victims.

the notion behind your argument is: the mass murder of people in the 21 century have primarily been by the hands of extreme muslims.
of which i will respond with this link- 2000 year history of Jewish persecution
of which christians are primarily responsible for...
wouldn't you say?

religion is dangerous...

 

[Kathryn]

the notion behind your argument is: the mass murder of people in the 21 century have primarily been by the hands of extreme muslims.
of which i will respond with this link- 2000 year history of Jewish persecution
of which christians are primarily responsible for...
wouldn't you say?

religion is dangerous...

No -don't try to restate and twist what I have clearly said.

I have clearly stated that the vast, vast majority of terrorist attacks and activity in the 21st century has been at the hands of radical Islamic extremists. That's it. That's what I said, and it's the truth.

That's the reality we are living with today and the reality that we have to face and work with, and against.