qur'an burning in Florida

[AxisMundi]

AxisMundi
I am not sure what your reply to my post was intended to convey.
It appears you are dissatisfied with my criticism of the now defunct Christian theocracy, since I did not include reference to certain Christian terrorist groups. I fail to see the connection, but appreciate your taking the time to provide a list of them. These and all other religious terrorist groups are, as I argued in my post, the inevitable outcome of intolerance which a religion inevitably spawns.

You echo this point when you wrote:

"The simple fact is that all religions have their fanatical groups that conduct terrorist actions and activities."

and again,

"The other simple fact is, Christianity and Islam both share the dubious honor of having the most, and most active, terrorist groups worldwide."

I do contest your attributing the attack on 9/11 to be politically motivated. No doubt the political climate greatly contributed to the terrorists' dissatisfaction with the infidel enemy, but there is no doubt that these Muslim extremists were acting out their conviction in accordance with their intolerant religion which perceives the United States to be an enemy of Islam.

In fairness to your viewpoint, I must point out that to a Muslim, politics and religion are intertwined, if not one and the same, thus making this area of disagreement between you and me a moot point.

We trained and supplied OBL and what would later come to be known as Al Quida during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.

Was this religiously motivated, or political?

Part of the conflict the West has with Islamic Radicals stems from the support for Israel.

is this religiously motivated or political?

Another part of the conflict stems from te interference the West has conducted in the Middle East since colonial France and England argued over who would own what areas.

is this religiously motivated or political?

You make the mistake of assuming it is purely religious as leaders, like OBL wip up their followers into a relgiious frenzy so that they will conduct suicide attacks.

 

[AxisMundi]

No -don't try to restate and twist what I have clearly said.

I have clearly stated that the vast, vast majority of terrorist attacks and activity in the 21st century has been at the hands of radical Islamic extremists. That's it. That's what I said, and it's the truth.

That's the reality we are living with today and the reality that we have to face and work with, and against.

This would appear so according to mainstream media, but some basic investigations prove otherwise.

While you are fixated on the Bear that is Islamic Radicals, the Lion which is Christian terrorism and theocratic agenda in the US will eat you alive.

 

[waitasec]

No -don't try to restate and twist what I have clearly said.

I have clearly stated that the vast, vast majority of terrorist attacks and activity in the 21st century has been at the hands of radical Islamic extremists. That's it. That's what I said, and it's the truth.

That's the reality we are living with today and the reality that we have to face and work with, and against.

so why make such a statement?
is to make yourself feel better about the atrocities christians committed throughout history?

 

[Vasilisa Jade]

Welcome to my lovely home. The burning was set to take place not even an hour from me. They all make me sick. I can't believe they would go so far as to pull such a stunt, and THEN, when someone puts them in their place by explaining the danger the pastor was putting on the soldiers oversees... he pulls another stunt to try and cover his behind. He can't just admit he was wrong, nooo.....

 

[Kathryn]

so why make such a statement?
is to make yourself feel better about the atrocities christians committed throughout history?

Nope. I am not proud of any atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. Why would you assume that?

My point is the reality of the threat that radical Islam is to the world in general in the 21st century.

Radical Islam has gained a lot of momentum due to the fall of the Soviet Union - a vacuum will always be filled. It's not simply gaining strength and initiative due to something as simplistic as Israel and US dominance and policy. If that were the case, there would be no reason for the havoc happening now in Southwest Asia, Khazakstan, and all the other ___stans that make up what used to be the southwest section of the Soviet Union.

 

[andys]

AxixMundi,

You continue to argue that I fail to recognize any political motivation on the part of the 9/11 terrorists.

Yet, (on page 11) I clearly conceded your point. I wrote:

"No doubt the political climate greatly contributed to the terrorists' dissatisfaction with the infidel enemy, but there is no doubt that these Muslim extremists were acting out their conviction in accordance with their intolerant religion which perceives the United States to be an enemy of Islam. In fairness to your viewpoint, I must point out that to a Muslim, politics and religion are intertwined, if not one and the same, thus making this area of disagreement between you and me a moot point."

If this doesn't satisfy you, I don't know what more I can say.

I do think you are perhaps overly preoccupied with establishing whether politics or religion is more, or solely blameworthy for recent terrorist attacks by Muslims; in the same way you are preoccupied with establishing whether Islam or Catholicism is more blameworthy for their terrorist activities.

I suppose these are interesting contests, but I'm not going to lose sleep over the outcome.

 

[waitasec]

Nope. I am not proud of any atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. Why would you assume that?

because of this...

There is no other group of religious fundamentalists that are wreaking havoc worldwide as radical Islamists are.

That's the 21st century reality we are all having to deal with.

Nope, I will not reword my original statement. There is NO OTHER RELIGION in the 21st century with such a radical fringe which wreaks such catastrophic havoc at the cost of human lives as radical Islam. It's an inconvenient, politically incorrect TRUTH. Radical Islamists kill and maim thousands of people through acts of terrorism world wide every year. Sad but true.

I said - There is NO OTHER RELIGION in the 21st century with such a radical fringe which wreaks such catastrophic havoc at the cost of human lives as radical Islam. It's an inconvenient, politically incorrect TRUTH. Radical Islamists kill and maim thousands of people through acts of terrorism world wide every year. Sad but true.

First of all, I'm not suffering from much of anything - unless of course, you count longsuffering patience when it comes to enduring ignorance like this quote showcases.

I am realistic when it comes to terrorism and it's impact worldwide -and I am realistic about the sources of that terrorism.

You can blame "the West" or US policy or Christianity or whatever you want, in order to try to cast blame on the actions of radical Muslims worldwide - but the entire history of radical Muslims, as well as their present actions, are warlike, violent, and terroristic in nature, independent of Christianity, western values, you name it. Their modus operandum is violence and terrorism and apparently any excuse will do.

doesn't look like you are admitting to the fact that christianity has been on the wrong side of history. looks like you're wagging the dog with these statements...
i would respect someone who can admit to faults rather than sidestepping and pussyfooting around the issue at hand:
religion is dangerous.

 

[waitasec]

more of the ugly truth...
[youtube]k6C9BuXe2RM[/youtube]
YouTube - Bishop Richard Williamson - Gas Chambers, Anti-Semitism and the Truth!

i recommend watching
constantines sword

you can see it on netflix...

 

[andys]

Waitasec / Kathryn,

Forgive me, but I can't resist poking my nose into your debate.

There is no question that Kathryn is correct, but I think a more interesting question to raise is, which religion poses the greatest threat? It seems clear to me that only one religion threatens to destroy our entire way of life, our freedom, our human rights, our democracy—everything.

Isn't this question significantly more important than establishing a tally of atrocities to declare a "winner"?

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec / Kathryn,

Forgive me, but I can't resist poking my nose into your debate.

There is no question that Kathryn is correct, but I think a more interesting question to raise is, which religion poses the greatest threat? It seems clear to me that only one religion threatens to destroy our entire way of life, our freedom, our human rights, our democracy—everything.

Isn't this question significantly more important than establishing a tally of atrocities to declare a "winner"?

i get what she is saying, it's the innuendo that is annoying to me.
stop pointing fingers to take the attention off of the pink elephant in the room (the pastor in florida) is all i am saying...

 

[Luminous]

There again Luminous-who are we to judge anyone?...

xxx

those who stand and watch...judging from perception. who would we be...if not to judge?

 

[AxisMundi]

There is no question that Kathryn is correct, but I think a more interesting question to raise is, which religion poses the greatest threat? It seems clear to me that only one religion threatens to destroy our entire way of life, our freedom, our human rights, our democracy—everything.

If you are speaking about the theodemocratic movement in the Untied States, conducted by Christian Fundamentalsits, I agree with you.

The theodemocratic movement seeks to dismantle our Constitutional Republic, our form of "democracy", and enslave everyone in Christian theonomy.

Muslim radicals might kill a few thousand of us, but te theodemocrats work from within to change our laws, effecting the entire Nation.

Isn't this question significantly more important than establishing a tally of atrocities to declare a "winner"?

The "Degrees of Guilt Fallacy". It jsut bugs the snot out of me that people would give their own terrorists a complete pass merely because the other guy is more active.

Terrorism, in any religion, must be addressed and stamped out.

 

[tmThEMaN]

To tmTheMaN:

If you want to apply the "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" justice/revenge, then all you need to do is burn some bibles.

First, in Islam we respect the Holy books of Christianity and Judaism. We belief that there's in them some of the words of God.

Second, burning books, flags or pics is a ridiculous thing in the first place. It does not achieve anything. Dialog does. So the burning of any book is against my ways.

Third, I'm against stereotyping any group. I know that this person does not represent Christianity. There's a saying for the Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) that means we should not curse others so they don't curse us. If we swear at them, they will swear at us, and it would be our fault for starting it (or reacting to it which would lead to more swearing).
I hope my translation to the meaning is clear, i'm not too good at that

Fourth, I'm against violence and any act of hate and intolerance. What I said previously in this post is to try to explain how Muslims feel about this and why many protest will take place. I'm explaining why some people might get violent about this because it is a very sensitive matter for Muslims. It is our right to protest, right? Most protests will be peaceful, but in some parts of the world some people take advantage of these protests to make chaos. You will not see clerics or educated religious people making any violent actions or burning. It is usually people with more emotions than understanding. But many Muslims will join a peaceful protest.

We trained and supplied OBL and what would later come to be known as Al Qaida during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.

Was this religiously motivated, or political?

Part of the conflict the West has with Islamic Radicals stems from the support for Israel.

is this religiously motivated or political?

Another part of the conflict stems from te interference the West has conducted in the Middle East since colonial France and England argued over who would own what areas.

is this religiously motivated or political?

You make the mistake of assuming it is purely religious as leaders, like OBL wip up their followers into a religious frenzy so that they will conduct suicide attacks.

I agree with AxisMundi.

Extremists and Terrorists are politically motivated, it does not matter what face they wear and how they misuse ideologies to recruit the masses. For them religion is a mean to an end.
I define terrorists as the ones who target Civilians directly, or indirectly. Such as Al-Qaida, Israel and any government that uses violence to achieve their own agenda.
Religion is free from them.
On the other hand, The lack of religion does not stop violence too, what about atheist criminals, why didn't their morals stop them ?! Does that mean that every atheist is a potential criminal ?! No, it means that any human being is a potential threat to the other. No one can claim perfection, everyone will do wrong and right and that should not represent every group this person belongs.

People say Islam is a religion of violence. Is it wrong to say that if an army attacks our country then we have the right to attack them to defend ourselves. Is there a country in the world that says if someone attacks it we will throw roses at them and turn the other cheek!!!. No where in Islam a saying that killing the innocent is ok. The Quran says we should fight those who attack us (physically). And that is not wrong. No one should stand still when attacked. In the Quran God says we should accept peace when the enemy (physical, army attackers) proposes peace. If Islam was set on killing all non-muslims, then why does the world still exists when there's 1.3 billion living suicidal bombs. Some self proclaimed muslims misused islam and suddenly these are the only muslims people see.

No religion will accept the other as the truth, that means it is wrong. So don't take anyone's word for it and trail before you judge, but you must be a just judge and look at all the angles. Try to understand it first. If you don't want to bother, then don't make a premature judgement.

I don't want to drift more out of topic. But it seems people are judging without awareness and understanding.

Now let's enjoy the incoming flames ... but have mercy if you can.

 

[Luminous]

Revenge is not a very venirable quality...nor are idol scriptures. Even Lord Sirdhartha Gautama...by all out-dated and primitive standards understood this when founding his religion of Enlightenment.

 

[Kathryn]

i get what she is saying, it's the innuendo that is annoying to me.
stop pointing fingers to take the attention off of the pink elephant in the room (the pastor in florida) is all i am saying...

No, I'm focusing on the present situation rather than trying to use some sort of tally board to see whose ahead or behind on the body count.

I believe that if you add up the human toll of all wars, genocides, etc you will find that there's not a single group with any sort of political power who has not used religion, race, creed, nationality, or some other form of demonization, in order to seize and maintain power.

But everyone knows that. It doesn't change the fact that what we're dealing with NOW on an international level is radical Islamic extremists. That's present tense. It could be some other radical group tomorrow.

But sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

The ONLY reason why that idiot pastor in Florida is such a menace is because his foolish actions are apt to motivate OTHER groups (ie, RADICAL ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS) who are more ruthless than he ever thought of being. He's violating a basic principle of warfare - never pick a fight with an enemy who is prepared to be more ruthless than you are.

In this case, we have fundamentalist Christians who are threatening to burn books - and fundamentalist Muslims who are threatening to maim, kill, and destroy human life in return.

Not that they need this particular pastor as some sort of rallying point - they're already maiming, killing, and destroying human life all over Southwest Asia, much of Africa, the Middle East, and in random attacks worldwide.

tmTheMan - good post, by the way. I frubaled you but I wanted to give you some credit publically.

 

[waitasec]

No, I'm focusing on the present situation rather than trying to use some sort of tally board to see whose ahead or behind on the body count.

you did again,
if you are "focusing on the present situation rather than to use some tally board" then why say this immediately after such a claim...?

I believe that if you add up the human toll of all wars, genocides, etc you will find that there's not a single group with any sort of political power who has not used religion, race, creed, nationality, or some other form of demonization, in order to seize and maintain power.

the present situation involves both parties, this idiot in florida opened a pandora's box of the obvious racism we have in this country...
why burn the qur'an...? there are many innocent and peaceful muslims, why put them in the same box

can't you see i am purposely putting the all types of christians in the same box just as you are doing with all types of muslims?

did you read my op?
this makes as much sense as blaming the republican party or christianity for the oklahoma city bombing...
it doesn't make sense.

 

[Kathryn]

can't you see i am purposely putting the all types of christians in the same box just as you are doing with all types of muslims?

Uhh, no - because that's not what I am doing. In all my various posts on this topic, on this thread and others, I clearly differentiate between moderate Muslims and radical Islamic extremists.

You, however, are the one insisting on broad generalizations, and demonizing the whole based on aberrations.

Even this horrid, stupid, ignorant pastor down in Florida -as bad as he is - is only threatening harm to BOOKS. You don't hear of radical Christians WORLDWIDE threatening (and actually carrying out) large scale terrorist operations in the name of their religion. Of course there are kooks out there, but they are not well organized. Radical Islam has an infrastructure, funding sources, and support worldwide - and their influence is growing.

Of COURSE I do not lump moderate Muslims (and I believe the vast majority of Muslims fall into this category) into the same category as these insane radicals. You, however, clearly state that you purposely lump all types of Christians in the same box.

You, my friend, are the bigot - not me.

 

[andys]

I does bother me that the Pastor in Florida is being targeted as the villain.

What he is doing is expressing his (justified) contempt for the Koran in accordance with his right to freedom of speech. This dangerous book deserves no respect; the people who follow it, even less.

Granted, his demonstration will infuriate the Muslim population. But he is not the idiot or the villain—THEY ARE.

More dangerous than his demonstration, which is his constitutional right, is cowering to the threat of reprisal. Then the Muslims have won. They will have succeeded in silencing the infidel. We will have taken the first step to conforming to their will.

 

[Muffled]

Revenge is not a very venirable quality...nor are idol scriptures. Even Lord Sirdhartha Gautama...by all out-dated and primitive standards understood this when founding his religion of Enlightenment.

I've seen Buddhists set themselves on fire (TV) but never someones book, business or other people. I think this comes under the heading of "do no harm." My question is "Is it any less evil to harm oneself?" .

Usually in both religious and secular societies the question is whether the actions are appropriate (in secular terms lawful).

I wonder how far the law can be taken against so called hate crimes. If a person burns a book because he opposes the views of another group, should he be jailed for five years? Can the government begin to discern the heart as to whether the person has hate in it?

It seems fair to me that a pastor can decide the Qu'ran is of the devil, if the Muslims are saying the Bible is a work of fiction. (I don't believe in either view). Of course a Muslim is less likely to burn the Bible because there is too much in the Qu'ran that supports it for them to disparage it entirely. Unfortunately there is no such constraint on a Christian pastor.

I suppose I could print out a few of the posts I disagree with on this forum and burn them but it just seems like a waste of time to me and I wouldn't likely get on TV for it, lol.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Someone bolted a Qu'ran to a stop sign in Pueblo this weekend...