Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Super Universe]

What?? so your saying that the disiples of Jesus(as) didn't really understand what he was talking about until Paul came? what is it that they didn't understand?Also that since they didn't understand what Jesus (as) was saying they're bound to hell?? please clarify!

Basically that is what I'm saying. Even today people still don't understand what He said, they think Jesus is God.

What didn't people understand that Jesus said? Pretty much everything.

-They didn't understand the idea of building worth in heaven (knowledge/wisdom) instead of here on the earth (material possessions).
-They didn't understand the parables.
-They didn't understand the idea of forgiveness, they simply refused.
-When Jesus said "Only through me can you reach heaven" He meant that He is the guardian of the door that allows beings to ascend to the higher dimensions and eventually reach heaven. He didn't mean or say that He was God.

Not understanding what Jesus said does not send you off to hell. After the earth the option isn't heaven or hell, in fact it's neither. The option's are the 4th dimension, ascend to the 5th dimension if you've really earned it, or go back to the 3rd dimension again.

 

[Muffled]

Hi!

The short answer is yes!

The Baha'i scriptures state that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross, and that the Resurrection is spiritual, not physical (as Christ Himself indicated in the Gospels).

(The discusison of the Crucifixion is in Some Answered Questions, of of the roughly 200 volumes of Baha'i scripture.)

And we also accept both the Bible and the Qur'an as legitimate, God-sent scripture which in fact are in harmony about this.

Best,

Bruce

If that is what the Ba'hai scripture says about the resurrection it appears to be in contradiction to what the Bible says. This would make a good subject for another thread. It is off topic for this one.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings redux!

***** PLEASE DON'T REPLY TO THIS HERE: I'VE JUST OPENED A NEW THREAD ON RESURRECTION! SEE YOU THERE. *****

BruceDLimber][/b]The short answer is yes!

The Baha'i scriptures state that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross, and that the Resurrection is spiritual, not physical (as Christ Himself indicated in the Gospels).

(The discusison of the Crucifixion is in Some Answered Questions, of of the roughly 200 volumes of Baha'i scripture.)

And we also accept both the Bible and the Qur'an as legitimate, God-sent scripture which in fact are in harmony about this.

If that is what the Ba'hai scripture says about the resurrection, it appears to be in contradiction to what the Bible says.

Not in the least!

Both the Bible and the Baha'i scriptures describe the Resurrection as a spiritual--not a physical--event!

I refer you to First Corinthians 15:42-44 & 50:

"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a physical boty; it is raised a spiritual body.... I tell you this, brethren: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

And Christ HImself also affirms this!:

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Sip;rit is spirit."

John 4:24 "God is a spirit."

(IOW the essence of Christ is the Spirit and is born of God; flesh is not the same essence.)

John 6:62 "It is the spirit that gies life; the flesh is of no avail."

John 3:13 "... the Son of Man is in Heaven."

(Please note that Christ spoke this while on earth, making clear that this is a spiritual--not a physical--state!)

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing."

So if we believe the Bible, we've established that the flesh wil die and only the spirit survives and prevails! Hence, Resurrection is a spiritual--not a physical--event.

(BTW, the spelling is Baha'i. If it'll help, "baha" means "glory" and the suffix yields the adjective form, so that "Baha'i" literally means "of Glory.")

Best,

Bruce

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Yes, through the Paraclete and study of the texts. But right now I am enjoying all the concepts people are expressing.

What are your thoughts on the crucifixion?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

On the contrary, because it says "it was made to appear to them."

Have you ever seen anyone who appeared to be dead? It happens. People have been known to lose all vital signs and revive in the morgue. For Jesus to appear to dead it has to convincing and the Biblical record shows that the disciples were convinced because the Bible says "He breathed His last."

With that said...what is your perspective then? I've seen cases where the pain was too much that the person passed out.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Basically that is what I'm saying. Even today people still don't understand what He said, they think Jesus is God.

What didn't people understand that Jesus said? Pretty much everything.

I understand it all. Please try not to generalize. People may interpret it differently than others but does not mean they don't understand. I will say that "some" people may not understand some. most or all what Jesus was saying.

Look at revelations. If you look at the descriptions they were laied out in a way that was understandable at that time. Now read it with todays technology and people in mind and it makes sense to you. Now let's assume to rapture won't happen for another 300 years. Can you imagine reading revealtions then?

-They didn't understand the idea of building worth in heaven (knowledge/wisdom) instead of here on the earth (material possessions).
-They didn't understand the parables.
-They didn't understand the idea of forgiveness, they simply refused.
-When Jesus said "Only through me can you reach heaven" He meant that He is the guardian of the door that allows beings to ascend to the higher dimensions and eventually reach heaven.

I think you are generalizing here. I still would say not all of the people understood but some did.

He didn't mean or say that He was God.

I totally agree.

Not understanding what Jesus said does not send you off to hell.

You may be correct here... I don't know

After the earth the option isn't heaven or hell, in fact it's neither. The option's are the 4th dimension, ascend to the 5th dimension if you've really earned it, or go back to the 3rd dimension again.

On this one we need proof. Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

[maro]

On the contrary, because it says "it was made to appear to them."

Have you ever seen anyone who appeared to be dead? It happens. People have been known to lose all vital signs and revive in the morgue. For Jesus to appear to dead it has to convincing and the Biblical record shows that the disciples were convinced because the Bible says "He breathed His last."

i think there is a misunderstanding here ,

"it was made to appear to them " doesn't mean he appeared to be dead , it refers to the man who looked exactly like jesus


here is the verse and its tafseer (explanation ) :


" And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain."


And for their saying, boastfully, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God', as they claim: in other words, for all of these [reasons] We have punished them. God, exalted be He, says, in repudiating their claim to have killed him: And yet they did not slay him nor did they crucify him, but he, the one slain and crucified, who was an associate of theirs [the Jews], was given the resemblance, of Jesus. In other words, God cast his [Jesus's] likeness to him and so they thought it was him [Jesus]. And those who disagree concerning him, that is, concerning Jesus, are surely in doubt regarding, the slaying of him, for some of them said, when they saw the slain man: the face is that of Jesus, but the body is not his, and so it is not he; and others said: no, it is he. They do not have any knowledge of, the slaying of, him, only the pursuit of conjecture (illā ittibā'a l-zann, is a discontinuous exception) in other words: 'instead, they follow conjecture regarding him, that which they imagined [they saw]'; and they did not slay him for certain (yaqīnan, a circumstantial qualifier emphasising the denial of the slaying).

Tafsir al-Jalalayn

 

[BruceDLimber]

What are your thoughts on the crucifixion?

Hi!

I'd call it a tragic example of an unfortunate repeating theme wherein significant portions of humanity ignore and oppose--and sometimes even kill--the Divine Messenger Whom God has sent to guide us!

It's not the only such example; something equivalent happened again 157 years ago, for example.

It's a terrible pattern which I hope and pray we can overcome and break, so that for a change we're all on the right side of the question!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Hi!

I'd call it a tragic example of an unfortunate repeating theme wherein significant portions of humanity ignore and oppose the Divine Messenger Whom God has sent to guide us!

It's not the only such example; something equivalent happened again 157 years ago, for example.

It's a terrible pattern which I hope and pray we can overcome and break, so that for a change we're all on the right side of the question!

Peace,

Bruce

You're referring to the Bab. Even though it's extremely sad that he was executed I'm still fascinated by the story involving the first firing squad.

We do have a terrible habit of killing the Divine Messengers. I join you in hoping we can overcome it.

Peace

 

[Popeyesays]

Why would God inflict such an ignominious death on a stand-in? That question always arises when I consider the normative Islamic understanding of substituting another man for Jesus to die in His place.

If God was so concerned not to inflict death upon His Messenger to fulfill the Message, why would God inflict that death on someone else?

I can't find a satisfactory answer for that.

Regards,
Scott

 

[The_Evelyonian]

Why would God inflict such an ignominious death on a stand-in? That question always arises when I consider the normative Islamic understanding of substituting another man for Jesus to die in His place.

If God was so concerned not to inflict death upon His Messenger to fulfill the Message, why would God inflict that death on someone else?

I can't find a satisfactory answer for that.

Regards,
Scott

Good point

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Why would God inflict such an ignominious death on a stand-in? That question always arises when I consider the normative Islamic understanding of substituting another man for Jesus to die in His place.

If God was so concerned not to inflict death upon His Messenger to fulfill the Message, why would God inflict that death on someone else?

That depends on who exactly got killed. If it is assumed that the person who actually got killed deserved it (a certain Judas Iscariot) then it's not all that unfair. If in fact Judas was the one to be killed in Jesus' stead, then that to me is turnabout-fairplay. After all, he would have been a traitor of the highest degree not only selling out his supposed friend, but a messenger of Allah no less.

It is only unsatisfactory turn of events if we assume the person that got killed was innocent. I can't see Allah killing one innocent in the place of another. So whoever it was be it Judas (which is most likely) or one of Jesus other myriad of enemies, obviously had it coming in my book.

 

[Popeyesays]

That depends on who exactly got killed. If it is assumed that the person who actually got killed deserved it (a certain Judas Iscariot) then it's not all that unfair. If in fact Judas was the one to be killed in Jesus' stead, then that to me is turnabout-fairplay. After all, he would have been a traitor of the highest degree not only selling out his supposed friend, but a messenger of Allah no less.

It is only unsatisfactory turn of events if we assume the person that got killed was innocent. I can't see Allah killing one innocent in the place of another. So whoever it was be it Judas (which is most likely) or one of Jesus other myriad of enemies, obviously had it coming in my book.

I've seen this argument, but surely if that were the case the Qur'an would make it clearer? As it is the Qur'an speaks in metaphor all the time, so I find it inescapable to conclude that this is one of those many metaphors--to draw the same distinction between Jesus the Messenger and Jesus the man--Jesus the Word Made Flesh and Jesus of Nazareth--that the New Testament draws and has been noted before in this thread..

Regards,
Scott.

 

[Doodlebug02]

The Koran is wrong. Jesus did die but He also rose again from the dead on the third day.

 

[Popeyesays]

Holly,

Jesus died on the cross, I agree. That was the whole point. The pundits of Islam took an unreasonable position on the Qur'anic verse and have spent centuries trying to defend a dogma that is not based in reality.

Now, did the body which appeared to the Magdalene on Easter happen to be the same physical body which was buried on Friday evening before?

If it was a spiritual manifestation of Christ then the Qur'an and the Gospels can be said to agree--in my opinion both are sacred texts and must be right.

I think the insistence upon the physical body of Christ coming back from the dead and ascending later to heaven is equally superstitious to the Muslim dogma that insists someone else died on the cross in His place.

I'm sure you do not agree, and that's okay.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Laila]

There seems to be a discrepancy between the Bible which say that Jesus died and the Qu'ran which said He didn't.

That is what appears to be the case until you find out what the texts really say.

Hope the thread below helps:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43239

 

[BruceDLimber]

Now, did the body which appeared to the Magdalene on Easter happen to be the same physical body which was buried on Friday evening before?

Hi, Scott!

As I suspect you're well aware, it's my understanding that the Baha'i view is that everything following the Crucifixion is in fact spiritual metaphor (which of course in no way denies the Resurrection, which was spiritual anyway!).

Regards,

Bruce

 

[TashaN]

There seems to be a discrepancy between the Bible which say that Jesus died and the Qu'ran which said He didn't.

That is what appears to be the case until you find out what the texts really say.

The Quran never stated that he didn't die but it says that Jesus wasn't killed nor he was crucified.

Allah said in the Quran:

[55] Behold! Allah said: "O 'Isa! I will take thee and raise thee to myself and clear thee (of the falsehood) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject Faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all return unto Me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. (Quran 3:55)

As you can see, we have the word "take thee". While it's clear from the Quran that Jesus wasn't crucified according to Surah "chapter"4,verse 157 and all the Muslims are in agreement in this issue, but the scholars of Islam differ about Surah 3, verse 55, because while some of them said that he died and have been taken by Allah, others said he didn't die, but it was something like when human beings sleep at night and God take their souls when they do so and return it back to them before they wake up and keep others with him "which means those whom their soul didn't returned to them are dead". This verse will explain our sleeping at night which some scholars say that it's the same case with Jesus, who was taken by God.

[60] It is He Who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day; by day doth He raise you up again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; in the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did. (Quran 6:60)

To conclude what i have said, all the Muslims are in agreement that Jesus wasn't crucfied, but they differ in the way his soul was taken by, was it a death or some sort of sleeping, we don't know, but Allah knows best.

[157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. (Quran 4:157)

1- They killed him not.
2- nor crucified him.
3- it was made to appear to them.

I hope that i answered your question.


Peace and blessing,

TT

 

[TashaN]

Hi my dear friend, long time no see. I guess you just appear from time to another when you find a good topic to discuss.

I hope you won't mind if i commented on some of your posts.

If God was so concerned not to inflict death upon His Messenger to fulfill the Message, why would God inflict that death on someone else?

I'll answer this question "God willing", but first, i'm interested to know whether you believe in the Baha'i faith that Jesus died for the sins of the world or not.

it is the Qur'an speaks in metaphor all the time

That's what the Baha'i faith followers believe in about the Quran but it's not the case from an islamic point of veiw. If you have any proof that the Quran speaks in metaphor all the time then i'll be interested to know about it.

Holly,

Jesus died on the cross, I agree. That was the whole point. The pundits of Islam took an unreasonable position on the Qur'anic verse and have spent centuries trying to defend a dogma that is not based in reality.

Why it's unreasonable, and how do you know that it is not based on reality?

What is reality for you as you explained it for me before, is that Bahaullah is the return of Jesus Christ to earth, but i doubt that either Muslims or Christians will agree with you in that.


Peace and blessing,

TT

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings, TT!

[The Baha'i view is that] Bahaullah is the return of Jesus Christ to earth, but i doubt that either Muslims or Christians will agree with you in that.

Acctually, we see Him as the Return of the Christ Spirit, not of Jesus Himself!

Every Divine Messenger is a different person, all sharing the same eternal Holy Spirit.

Best,

Bruce