Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[icehorse]

Of course. When people make very specific, bias searches it takes only 30 seconds to be as shallow and as bias as you are.

But generally educated people do better research. Read the encyclopaedia of wars by Charles and Alan. Only 7% of all wars ever recorded were motivated by any religion.

Tell me how the term "Islamic Battles" is biased? We could do a search on "Christian Battles" and probably come up with a similar horrific list.

It's quite simple, most major religions are inherently divisive. Us vs. them. In the tribe or not in the tribe. Believers and dhimmis. The faithful and the heathens, and on and on and on.

 

[firedragon]

Tell me how the term "Islamic Battles" is biased? We could do a search on "Christian Battles" and probably come up with a similar horrific list.

Both are bias. Rather, do an exploratory research, not confirmation bias.

I even gave you a scholarly research done and compiled into an encyclopaedia. By the way, done by atheists, not your intended muslims or christians. So that you trust it more.

DO the research.

 

[Link]

Yes they did. When they read, "So they fight in the cause of God. They kill and are killed", for some reason they think it means, "So they fight in the cause of God. They kill and are killed".

Go figure.

Salam

I am going to help you out. The word "min" means from and so its a subset.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اشْتَرَىٰ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَنْفُسَهُمْ وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ بِأَنَّ لَهُمُ الْجَنَّةَ ۚ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَيَقْتُلُونَ وَيُقْتَلُونَ ۖ وَعْدًا عَلَيْهِ حَقًّا فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ وَالْقُرْآنِ ۚ وَمَنْ أَوْفَىٰ بِعَهْدِهِ مِنَ اللَّهِ ۚ فَاسْتَبْشِرُوا بِبَيْعِكُمُ الَّذِي بَايَعْتُمْ بِهِ ۚ وَذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ | Indeed Allah has bought from the faithful their souls and their possessions for paradise to be theirs: they fight in the way of Allah, kill, and are killed. A promise binding upon Him in the Torah and the Evangel and the Quran. And who is truer to his promise than Allah? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him, and that is the great success. | At-Tawba : 111

The same Surah (11 verses later) says they should not all go to fight, but some should have other honorable roles:

وَمَا كَانَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لِيَنْفِرُوا كَافَّةً ۚ فَلَوْلَا نَفَرَ مِنْ كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِنْهُمْ طَائِفَةٌ لِيَتَفَقَّهُوا فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنْذِرُوا قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ | Yet it is not for the faithful to go forth en masse. But why should not there a group from each of their sections go forth to become learned in religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, so that they may beware? | At-Tawba : 122

The "from" is very important to understand its a subset:

وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ بِشَيْءٍ مِنَ الْخَوْفِ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِنَ الْأَمْوَالِ وَالْأَنْفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ ۗ وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ | We will surely test you with a measure of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth, lives, and fruits; and give good news to the patient | Al-Baqara : 155

If the loss was followed "from" it would mean no wealth, no lives, no fruits, at all, but it says, there will be loss from these things, and so some might be hungry due shortage of food, some believers will lose lives, some will not be able to gain wealth or will lose it or be under strain regard it.

The other thing not all believers will lose one of these things, either "fear" or "hunger" or "loss from... (one of those three)", so all believers at minimum will be fearful of these things because of the trial of oppressors towards them or if not fearful, they faced one of these trials, in which they react with:

الَّذِينَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُمْ مُصِيبَةٌ قَالُوا إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ | —those who, when an affliction visits them, say, ‘Indeed we belong to Allah and to Him do we indeed return.’ | Al-Baqara : 156

Also, the end goal is the Mahdi establish justice, and we pray there be no more wars after his revolution. And so this is not a timeless verse that applies forever, but rather it means they when required will fight. The main issue is that Allah (swt) has bought their souls, so they are willing to sacrifice for greater good.

But this does not mean fight all the time, it means, when fighting is required, you will find from believers fighters as from believers are people who are completely generous souls willing to sacrifice themselves for greater good of humanity.

 

[firedragon]

It's quite simple, most major religions are inherently divisive.

Bigotry.

Us vs. them.

Same.

In the tribe or not in the tribe. Believers and dhimmis. The faithful and the heathens, and on and on and on.

Ignorance, irrelevant, and just making bigoted statements.

Do some honest research. Read the book I gave you or do a historical, global research.

I know you won't do that research because your intention is not to, but as a decent human being I must tell you to. I can't tell you "don't do research just make conjecture".

Hope you understand.

 

[Notthedarkweb]

This thread would show it, if proven. It would prove those premises to be true as well. Wait more to what I will say about leadership and guidance from God in this respect, you will see what I mean.

Lol

 

[Link]

Tell me how the term "Islamic Battles" is biased? We could do a search on "Christian Battles" and probably come up with a similar horrific list.

It's quite simple, most major religions are inherently divisive. Us vs. them. In the tribe or not in the tribe. Believers and dhimmis. The faithful and the heathens, and on and on and on.

See Surah Kaffiroon. It's us vs them, but at the end says:

To you is your religion and to me is mine.

Also, Surah Shura has a verse appealing to let people free in this regard:

"There is no argument between us and you"

And so the verses I quoted later, were warnings, not to oppress the believers or Mohammad (s) was going to seek victory over his oppressors.

 

[stevecanuck]

Who did that kind of interpretation someone else spoke of and did heinous things because of that interpretation? Can you give lets say 10 examples of them and give direct sources?

Thanks.

Every time in the last 1400 years that a Muslim obeyed verse 9:111 is an example, and you know it. If that's the best you have, we're done.

 

[stevecanuck]

See Surah Kaffiroon. It's us vs them, but at the end says:

To you is your religion and to me is mine.

There is absolutely no "and that's OK" stated or implied in that statement. It's just a simple statement of fact that explains the reason for the never-ending animus that Muslims will feel for us infidels.

 

[firedragon]

Every time in the last 1400 years that a Muslim obeyed verse 9:111 is an example, and you know it. If that's the best you have, we're done.

Nah. Not specific at all. First, you have to go and refer to the original post I replied to, and justify that, with lets say 10 examples, with direct sources of people who did the exact thing said in that post.

Otherwise you are just here to "be done".

 

[firedragon]

There is absolutely no "and that's OK" stated or implied in that statement.

You don't understand arabic. Not even a bit.

 

[Link]

Every time in the last 1400 years that a Muslim obeyed verse 9:111 is an example, and you know it. If that's the best you have, we're done.

Sure it might be true. But does the Quran allow to fight people who are peaceful? For example, ISIS attacking Yazdis and taking them as slaves (many of them), when Yazdis never participated in any conflict between Sunni and Shiite and were peaceful?

Quran says "if they incline to peace, you incline to it".

Yazdis have their own books, and make Iblis with a different name, to an Angel of light and believe there are no Devils, its humans faults only.

In the name that these people worshiped the devil, they were attacked.

Does Quran allow this?

 

[stevecanuck]

Salam

I am going to help you out. The word "min" means from and so its a subset.

إِنَّ اللَّهَ اشْتَرَىٰ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَنْفُسَهُمْ وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ بِأَنَّ لَهُمُ الْجَنَّةَ ۚ يُقَاتِلُونَ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَيَقْتُلُونَ وَيُقْتَلُونَ ۖ وَعْدًا عَلَيْهِ حَقًّا فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالْإِنْجِيلِ وَالْقُرْآنِ ۚ وَمَنْ أَوْفَىٰ بِعَهْدِهِ مِنَ اللَّهِ ۚ فَاسْتَبْشِرُوا بِبَيْعِكُمُ الَّذِي بَايَعْتُمْ بِهِ ۚ وَذَٰلِكَ هُوَ الْفَوْزُ الْعَظِيمُ | Indeed Allah has bought from the faithful their souls and their possessions for paradise to be theirs: they fight in the way of Allah, kill, and are killed. A promise binding upon Him in the Torah and the Evangel and the Quran. And who is truer to his promise than Allah? So rejoice in the bargain you have made with Him, and that is the great success. | At-Tawba : 111

The same Surah (11 verses later) says they should not all go to fight, but some should have other honorable roles:

وَمَا كَانَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لِيَنْفِرُوا كَافَّةً ۚ فَلَوْلَا نَفَرَ مِنْ كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِنْهُمْ طَائِفَةٌ لِيَتَفَقَّهُوا فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنْذِرُوا قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ | Yet it is not for the faithful to go forth en masse. But why should not there a group from each of their sections go forth to become learned in religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, so that they may beware? | At-Tawba : 122

The "from" is very important to understand its a subset:

وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ بِشَيْءٍ مِنَ الْخَوْفِ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِنَ الْأَمْوَالِ وَالْأَنْفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ ۗ وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ | We will surely test you with a measure of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth, lives, and fruits; and give good news to the patient | Al-Baqara : 155

If the loss was followed "from" it would mean no wealth, no lives, no fruits, at all, but it says, there will be loss from these things, and so some might be hungry due shortage of food, some believers will lose lives, some will not be able to gain wealth or will lose it or be under strain regard it.

The other thing not all believers will lose one of these things, either "fear" or "hunger" or "loss from... (one of those three)", so all believers at minimum will be fearful of these things because of the trial of oppressors towards them or if not fearful, they faced one of these trials, in which they react with:

الَّذِينَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُمْ مُصِيبَةٌ قَالُوا إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ | —those who, when an affliction visits them, say, ‘Indeed we belong to Allah and to Him do we indeed return.’ | Al-Baqara : 156

Also, the end goal is the Mahdi establish justice, and we pray there be no more wars after his revolution. And so this is not a timeless verse that applies forever, but rather it means they when required will fight. The main issue is that Allah (swt) has bought their souls, so they are willing to sacrifice for greater good.

But this does not mean fight all the time, it means, when fighting is required, you will find from believers fighters as from believers are people who are completely generous souls willing to sacrifice themselves for greater good of humanity.

So what? Even if you're right, it's still telling Muslims to kill and be killed in order to get into heaven.

 

[stevecanuck]

Sure it might be true. But does the Quran allow to fight people who are peaceful? For example, ISIS attacking Yazdis and taking them as slaves (many of them), when Yazdis never participated in any conflict between Sunni and Shiite and were peaceful?

Quran says "if they incline to peace, you incline to it".

Right, if they stop fighting and submit to Islamic rule they'll be fine. Whoopy!

 

[Link]

So what? Even if you're right, it's still telling Muslims to kill and be killed in order to get into heaven.

Re-Read what I said. It answers the line.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It must have been a heavily edited version, because there is a fair bit of violence and injustice in the complete version.

What? Verse 60:4 literally says that hatred towards non-Muslims until they accept Islam is a good example to follow!

What about the crucifixion, dismemberment, flogging, beating, striking the necks of enemies, fighting in Allah's cause, causing great slaughter, etc...?

Ah, are you saying that it does teach hatred and violence, but it is justified hatred and violence?

The "peace" is usually conditional on submitting to Islam.

Muhammad and the early Muslims had freedom of religion. They were allowed to practice Islam alongside all the other religions in Mecca. It was the blasphemy and attacks on the existing gods that others took exception to. Islam is far more intolerant of such behaviour than Meccan society was. Imagine if a group had started up in Medina publicly denouncing Allah as a false god and Islam as a false religion and Muhammad a false prophet. How long do you think they would have lasted? 10 minutes, never mind 10 years.

Nonsense. In the first decade of Islam, in Mecca a total of two Muslims were killed. Hardly "genocide". After the Hijra, there were no attacks on the Muslims in Medina until the Muslims started attacking and looting Meccan caravans.
Someone has been telling you porkies.

This is what my personal investigation turned up. Ive heard the arguments of the Robert Spencers of this world and found them false and ignorant mostly uninformed based on bias. I discovered that Muhammad was a Prophet of Peace and Justice and that the Quran is the perfect Word of God teaching peace, truth, brotherhood and justice.

I can only say what my 45 years of personal investigation turned up. I’ve seen all the arguments and found them baseless slander and ignorant prejudice.

If some want to believe Islam is evil then believe it. I’m not going to preach to the converted. But Islam being right or wrong is not up for negotiation.

 

[Link]

Right, if they stop fighting and submit to Islamic rule they'll be fine. Whoopy!

No, this is not true either. Fighting is required sometimes, for example, Qasim Sulaimani lead believers to stop ISIS, and there will always be believers who fight in the way of God. ISIS fought in the way of the devil, paid by resources from the devil, trained by Obama polices, and most of Al-Nusra ended up both their weapon and fighers in ISIS by calculations of US. Purposely by accident.

I do not know what definition of "moderate Muslims" Obama had, but if they were taking slaves from people, obviously, you can thank the education of "moderate Islam" by Obama for that too.

And I do not how you can expect them to be not extreme irrational and mindless if Obama wanted them to fight Hezbollah in Lebanon at the end, and that was the goal to fight in Syria and take over government.

 

[firedragon]

So what? Even if you're right, it's still telling Muslims to kill and be killed in order to get into heaven.

Of course. Fighting against oppression, to save people from oppression, against injustice, and against those who drove you away from your homes illegally, and to help those who ask for help against oppressors, and against those terrorists who murder innocent people and claim its in the name of God, are all noble deeds Muslims are asked to do in the Qur'an. And people who do that will hopefully go to heaven. That's absolutely correct.

But the Qur'an does not tell you to be pretend scholars, to take false information without investigating, etc. They are hypocrites who do that. It's very clear.

 

[icehorse]

Bigotry.
Same.

Ignorance, irrelevant, and just making bigoted statements.

Do some honest research. Read the book I gave you or do a historical, global research.

I know you won't do that research because your intention is not to, but as a decent human being I must tell you to. I can't tell you "don't do research just make conjecture".

Hope you understand.

I read the book. My conclusions are quite parsimonious to what your book says. For example, your book spends an ENORMOUS amount of time worrying about and criticizing non-Muslims. It's not biased or bigoted to say that, it's simply what your book says.

 

[Link]

Lol

The premise of Islam is that we have to look for guidance of God and towards leadership from him, in terms of affairs to do with the war against the havoc makers and the Kahens.

The Kahens think they are guardians of the earth, but they are the cause of all its problems. They do not perceive their evil ways though.

As I quoted the verse of why God takes it upon himself to be the holy king for humans, and linking it with the peace title of God and other titles, this is a response to your other premises. If you going to argue, that in principle humans can do as a good job as rulers and authorities as God, it would be greatly foolish.

And this links back to the premise, that war and peace is dynamic, but Quran says "fear God and be with the truthful". Mauwiya claimed Ali (a) did not pray to his followers as a way of deceit that when Ali (a) was martyred in prayer, the people who followed Mauwiya - many of them said, did not Mauwiya say Ali (a) does not even pray.

Its not good enough to have principles that are correct, but also with addition to that, must be lead by leaders appointed by God and their friends.

In this age, it's important to recognize who is preparing the way for the Mahdi and Jesus and others coming back, and that God is with the oppressed and not oppressors.

I will add to this, but this answers you "is there a valid" way.

There is only one way, and that is to be with the truthful friends of God. The other options are apathy to the conflict or taking side of deceivers and blood-shedding leaders who guide to the fire. Both those options lead to hell.

In this thread we are looking all principles but also talking about the philosophy of why we need God's guidance and leaders and kings from him, and so this answers your "is there only one valid way". Of course, its to be with the truthful.

Otherwise you will be deceived by Mauwiya and fight Ali (a) and go to hell.

 

[Link]

I read the book. My conclusions are quite parsimonious to what your book says. For example, your book spends an ENORMOUS amount of time worrying about and criticizing non-Muslims. It's not biased or bigoted to say that, it's simply what your book says.

There is a conflict between good and evil. Satan is an open enemy to mankind. People who take him and his offspring as Authorities, gods, and guides, are the worse.

Some of evil are aware of their role in conflict, others are heedless and mind controlled by Jinn and live blind to what is going on and others are just very apathetic to the conflict.

God is the Ruler for believers. Truth seekers will find his appointed rulers among humanity and will recognize scripture from God.

Those who are apathetic to the conflict between good and evil, are evil but not as evil as the Kahens and the planners. They are just apathetic and used by the planners from the Kahens.

The Kahens morals are messed up. They believe bisexuality is the ideal way and have all sorts of rituals which are sexually disturbing and are hiding their rituals from most humans.

They think they are enlightened. They will not relent till family unit and kinship is destroyed. That family and blood link and marriage is all destroyed.

They believe family creates bigotry to follow religion in a tribal way. They believe getting rid of it.

Half the war is about marriage and its always been like this.

If you take side of deceivers or go in your own little bubble, and do not fear God and do not take side of the truthful, you are counted as a hand towards oppression of oppressed, and the apathy is something they want. The truthful try to awaken people and make them care about the truth and justice.

Believers find ways to survive even if it is by Taqiya. But Taqiya can be used to justify cowardice and apathy, and this is condemned if a Shiite does it, and is not a true believer if he uses Taqiya to ignore his duties.