Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[icehorse]

I have to say @Link, much of what you relate here seems divisive, judgmental, intolerant, and ultimately violent

 

[stevecanuck]

Of course. Fighting against oppression, to save people from oppression, against injustice, and against those who drove you away from your homes illegally, and to help those who ask for help against oppressors, and against those terrorists who murder innocent people and claim its in the name of God, are all noble deeds Muslims are asked to do in the Qur'an. And people who do that will hopefully go to heaven. That's absolutely correct.

Please explain why it was necessary for Mohamed and his Muslim army to slaughter hundreds of the Banu Quraiza and enslave the rest after they surrendered without the lose of a single Muslim and without being guilty of aiding the Meccans at the Battle of the Trench.

 

[Link]

I have to say @Link, much of what you relate here seems divisive, judgmental, intolerant, and ultimately violent

Salam

Of course, hell for evil people is not an easy warning or concept to understand. But if you become aware of the conflict between good and evil, it becomes easy to see how different believers are from the transgressors.

Much of the reason people are against hell, is because they are blind to the battle between good and evil, and think everything is fine.

Its not.

 

[Bird123]

God is not going to watch and do nothing and in reality is the True holy King. But you and your people can try him, as it is upon him to deliver believers from their oppressors at the times of peril.

How many nations have been destroyed when they tried him with respect to believers and some drowned, others earthquakes, others 9 consecutive days took them of harsh winds, etc.

I believe he will bring the Mahdi, Jesus, Enoch, Khidr, Elyas and others we do not know about, and they been saved for a reason.

Without God intervening, there is no hope for oppressed. He is our hope, he and his Wali appointed on earth, "...and the oppressed say oh God grant from you a Wali and grant from you a Helper".

Believers never made it in their own, and we can not now, and will need God to bring about his champion king at the moments of peril.

In reading all my replies, how can you think God is doing nothing???

Religion is a catalyst that brings people's problems to the surface so they can be dealt with. After all, when one believes one has God's blessing, one can justify anything.

Can you justify anything??

It doesn't matter what everyone else chooses to do. It's what you choose to do that counts. One's choices will determine the lessons one wants to return.

I say, we should all Think instead of merely reacting, then make the very best choices we can. A hungry student learns quicker how to generate a smoother path. I will continue to be a Hungry Student of God!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

In reading all my replies, how can you think God is doing nothing???

Its exactly how it is. Leaving us to learn a meaningless lesson.

 

[Link]

Please explain why it was necessary for Mohamed and his Muslim army to slaughter hundreds of the Banu Quraiza and enslave the rest after they surrendered without the lose of a single Muslim and without being guilty of aiding the Meccans at the Battle of the Trench.

There is an alternative explanation to what really happened in tafsir Hassan Al-Askari (a) then the traditional historical account, I was reading it today. I will post it when I find it again.

But there was no massacre or slavery thing.

 

[Bird123]

My version, I can only talk about my version, I don't know the original but know the standard is false:


وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلًا | When a matter of safety or fear comes to them, they immediately broadcast it; but had they referred it to the Apostle as well to those vested with the authority from them, those of them who investigate would have ascertained it. And were it not for Allah’s grace upon you and His mercy, you would have surely followed Satan, [all] except a few. | An-Nisaa : 83

4:83 is obviously an elaboration of 4:59. This means God (swt), and Rasool (s) and Ulil-Amr (a) commands all have to do with safety and fear whether with regards to next world or this world. Its implied. And since they are the sources of guidance, we can conclude that is what Islam is about.

Also, see the post where I started with:


هُوَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْمَلِكُ الْقُدُّوسُ السَّلَامُ الْمُؤْمِنُ الْمُهَيْمِنُ الْعَزِيزُ الْجَبَّارُ الْمُتَكَبِّرُ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ | He is Allah—there is no god except Him—the Sovereign/King, the All-holy, the All-Peace, the Securer, the All-conserver, the All-mighty, the All-compeller, and the All-magnanimous. Clear is Allah of any partners that they may ascribe [to Him]! | Al-Hashr : 23


Another way to translate it:

He is God, there is no God but Him, the Holy King, The Peace, The Securer, the Preserver/Guardian, The Honorable/Mighty, The Compeller, the Magnified, Glorified is God from what they associate.

So we see God the Holy King. Why would he take Authority, it's because he is the Peace, and such seeks to secure it in the land, and preserves his creation and is mighty, the next title is is definitely linked to Islam with the title, "The Compeller". @Bird123 Always is saying God is not forcing people to views, would not do that, lets them decide, but we see wisdom here of God being the True king, because he needs to secure his creation from harming each other, and creating chaos on earth that cannot be repaired. And such he compels them to obey him and take him as the holy King and true King, as a means of acquiring inner peace, but also religion wise, collectively, wants them as a community, coming together, to secure the land from havoc of evil humans and Jinn. This is the only way he can preserve human honor and dignity and hence does not want us all doing decisions and learning from it. He wants peace on earth, not to learn by causing havoc, that we did things wrong.

This is mankind wanting control. Mankind speaks of peace but is that what they bring? Mankind values petty things like blaming others, hating others, condemning others. How can you think these petty things will bring you Peace?? Peace is not what you really want!!

Anyone who actually knew God would know that God has never ever been One to be feared. Mankind uses fear to intimidate and coerce others. Do you really think this manipulation will win in the end?

God will teach His children to the point where all these petty things will no longer be viable choices they could make. Why not? Those petty things mankind holds so dear will not bring the best results. Intelligence will win in the end. That is an Action of God staring everyone in the face.

One's choices reflect what they need to Learn and Discover. Living Life's Lessons move everyone forward toward that Higher Level. I would not expect Peace in a world until all the lessons are learned.

God is about what Is. Beliefs will not alter the lessons one chooses for oneself.

OK, so you are telling me God, who can create Universes needs mankind and a holy book to prevent chaos and people from hurting others? Further, the holy book values so many petty things that they put out into the world with the goal of Peace?? How does that Math ever add up? I can not see it.

God is not having troubles on Earth. Nothing happens that God does not know about. Look beyond the surface and Understand God. How do all the things that happen really Change things? This is where you will Discover the Real Answers.

Stretch that Intellect. God's actions are very smart working on multiple levels with multiple views

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

This is mankind wanting control. Mankind speaks of peace but is that what they bring? Mankind values petty things like blaming others, hating others, condemning others.

Oppressed value these things, oppressors do not.

 

[firedragon]

Please explain why it was necessary for Mohamed and his Muslim army to slaughter hundreds of the Banu Quraiza and enslave the rest after they surrendered without the lose of a single Muslim and without being guilty of aiding the Meccans at the Battle of the Trench.

lWe were discussing the Qur'an. Not this story. So try not to do red herrings.

 

[firedragon]

I read the book. My conclusions are quite parsimonious to what your book says. For example, your book spends an ENORMOUS amount of time worrying about and criticizing non-Muslims. It's not biased or bigoted to say that, it's simply what your book says.

Nope. You are absolutely ignorant of the book.

 

[icehorse]

Salam

Of course, hell for evil people is not an easy warning or concept to understand. But if you become aware of the conflict between good and evil, it becomes easy to see how different believers are from the transgressors.

Much of the reason people are against hell, is because they are blind to the battle between good and evil, and think everything is fine.

Its not.

And you feel qualified to make such judgments?

 

[icehorse]

Nope. You are absolutely ignorant of the book.

How on earth could you know that? (Because.. you're wrong)

 

[firedragon]

How on earth could you know that? (Because.. you're wrong)

I can know because you make absolutely ignorant claims. that's why.

Study a little prior to doing that.

 

[Notthedarkweb]

The premise of Islam is that we have to look for guidance of God and towards leadership from him, in terms of affairs to do with the war against the havoc makers and the Kahens.

The Kahens think they are guardians of the earth, but they are the cause of all its problems. They do not perceive their evil ways though.

As I quoted the verse of why God takes it upon himself to be the holy king for humans, and linking it with the peace title of God and other titles, this is a response to your other premises. If you going to argue, that in principle humans can do as a good job as rulers and authorities as God, it would be greatly foolish.

And this links back to the premise, that war and peace is dynamic, but Quran says "fear God and be with the truthful". Mauwiya claimed Ali (a) did not pray to his followers as a way of deceit that when Ali (a) was martyred in prayer, the people who followed Mauwiya - many of them said, did not Mauwiya say Ali (a) does not even pray.

Its not good enough to have principles that are correct, but also with addition to that, must be lead by leaders appointed by God and their friends.

In this age, it's important to recognize who is preparing the way for the Mahdi and Jesus and others coming back, and that God is with the oppressed and not oppressors.

I will add to this, but this answers you "is there a valid" way.

There is only one way, and that is to be with the truthful friends of God. The other options are apathy to the conflict or taking side of deceivers and blood-shedding leaders who guide to the fire. Both those options lead to hell.

In this thread we are looking all principles but also talking about the philosophy of why we need God's guidance and leaders and kings from him, and so this answers your "is there only one valid way". Of course, its to be with the truthful.

Otherwise you will be deceived by Mauwiya and fight Ali (a) and go to hell.

Wait, your justification for the claim "Quran is the best epistemic authority" is "To recognize the Quran as an epistemic authority you have to recognize it as an epistemic authority and accept its content"? Lmfao.

 

[Nakosis]

Salam

The statement: What Quran says about war and peace, is as good as it gets. There maybe other books out there in China or else where, about war and peace philosophies, that say the best thing possible as well. So the claim is not that only Quran says these things, but that what it says about war and peace is the best.

Please keep it on topic of this. Not if Quran is true or God exists or what is says about other things. Just this topic.

I will start with a balanced notion in Surah Shura and being adding to it:

وَالَّذِينَ إِذَا أَصَابَهُمُ الْبَغْيُ هُمْ يَنْتَصِرُونَ | those who, when afflicted by oppression, defend themselves. | Ash-Shura : 39

The word is defend, but it also carries the meaning of seeking victory over their oppressors. In fact, the latter is probably the pure meaning and defend is not a good word here, but I left the translation as is.

وَجَزَاءُ سَيِّئَةٍ سَيِّئَةٌ مِثْلُهَا ۖ فَمَنْ عَفَا وَأَصْلَحَ فَأَجْرُهُ عَلَى اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّهُ لَا يُحِبُّ الظَّالِمِينَ | The requital of evil is an evil like it, so whoever excuses and conciliates, his reward lies with Allah. Indeed, He does not like the wrongdoers. | Ash-Shura : 40

Here we see evil is to be repelled by an evil like it. Yet says who pardons and forgives, their reward is with God.

I made the case Ainseenqaaf is about Hassan (a), and why Hussain (a) fought while Hassan (a) fought but then did a treaty in other threads.

Here we see the proper way is to seek victory over your oppressors, but a circumstance can occur when you cannot seek it, and hence forgive your enemies and pardon, and seek to reform them.

Imam Ali (a) says something on the lines in Nahjul balagha, when offered an army from Abu Sufyan, "blessed is he who rises with wings (of support) or otherwise, remains down so that people are saved from afflictions (of war) and peace remains". I forget exact words but it was to justify why he did not want to fight despite the oppression and lost lives of some believers.

وَلَمَنِ انْتَصَرَ بَعْدَ ظُلْمِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ مَا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنْ سَبِيلٍ | As for those who retaliate after being wronged, there is no ground for action against them. | Ash-Shura : 41

إِنَّمَا السَّبِيلُ عَلَى الَّذِينَ يَظْلِمُونَ النَّاسَ وَيَبْغُونَ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ | The ground for action is only against those who oppress the people and commit tyranny in the land in violation of justice. For such there will be a painful punishment. | Ash-Shura : 42

This is to say people who seek victory over oppressors (retaliate should be translated as "seek victory"), there is no right of fighting them.

42:42 is awfully translated, but I will say it has two components.

(1) Oppressors
(2) Those who rebel in the earth without truth

So the second people you can fight is those who rebel against a government without truth and without right. This is allowed, but not if they have the right and truth.

These verses go back to "By the name of God The Benevolent, the Compassionate (intensely), Hameem is Ainseenqaaf", meaning there is no difference between way of Hassan (a) and way of Hussain (a) except circumstances, they both are the name of God and same light and Hussain (a) is Hassan (a).

This also means, there is no real difference of Pre-Madina Mohammad (s) and Post-Madina Mohammad (s), it's different circumstances. He didn't change policies or nature.

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِينَ قِيلَ لَهُمْ كُفُّوا أَيْدِيَكُمْ وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ فَلَمَّا كُتِبَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقِتَالُ إِذَا فَرِيقٌ مِنْهُمْ يَخْشَوْنَ النَّاسَ كَخَشْيَةِ اللَّهِ أَوْ أَشَدَّ خَشْيَةً ۚ وَقَالُوا رَبَّنَا لِمَ كَتَبْتَ عَلَيْنَا الْقِتَالَ لَوْلَا أَخَّرْتَنَا إِلَىٰ أَجَلٍ قَرِيبٍ ۗ قُلْ مَتَاعُ الدُّنْيَا قَلِيلٌ وَالْآخِرَةُ خَيْرٌ لِمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ وَلَا تُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا | Have you not regarded those who were told, ‘Keep your hands off [from warfare], and maintain the prayer and give the zakat’? But when fighting was prescribed for them, behold, a part of them feared the people as if fearing Allah, or were even more afraid, and they said, ‘Our Lord! Why did You prescribe fighting for us? Why did You not respite us for a short time?!’ Say, ‘The enjoyments of this world are trifle and the Hereafter is better for the Godwary, and you will not be wronged so much as a single date-thread. | An-Nisaa : 77

This shows some people from Mecca were good on terms when Mohammad (s) told them not to fight, but were against fighting because of fear of their opponents.

In fact, before Quran clear Surahs or commands were given to fight, Mohammad (s) did orders, and Quran confirmed his actions later. This was to show that Sunnah and Quran go together, but even during time of Mohammad (s), some people said "why not a Surah" to believers, hence, the truth was not always spread but rather believers were accused of not having "a Surah" to back what Mohammad (s) was telling them in the Sunnah.

So we see even during Mohammad (s) time, there was people arguing with his commands, by "why not a (a clear) Surah with fighting mentioned", kind of response. Thus a trait of hypocrisy was to escape Sunnah and commands of Rasool (s) with Quran early stage.

This dividing between words of Nabi (a) and Quran remains till this day.

But this might appear off-topic, but I will be providing proof also from the lives of the living Qurans - the Ahlulbayt (a) that is I will connect this with the lives of Imams (a) and how they strove against oppressors, and most of them not by fighting nor commanding their followers to fight.

And so we see fighting is not the only option, but if you can overtake oppressors and tyrants you should, and we will see different ways of resisting oppressor, even totally accepting their rule and become part of their government as did Yusuf (a) is allowed.

That is we have to assess the circumstances and what is best for stability and peace of people.

I think the religious tribal ideology of the past is one of the obstacles to any real peace in the world.
You simply have to identify this group or that group as "oppressor" then you can justify "evil" actions against them.
People believe themselves to be "good" by fighting the oppressors of the world without any actual thought to the civility of their own actions.

It is righteous before God to strap a bomb on yourself and blow yourself up along with many non-combatants as long as your fight is against your oppressors.

Maybe there was a time in the past when the Quran had successful advise for the survival of the tribe. Historically, it is the words of those that successfully led their tribes. Words, IMO, that provide understanding of our past but should not advise our future.

 

[stevecanuck]

There is an alternative explanation to what really happened in tafsir Hassan Al-Askari (a) then the traditional historical account, I was reading it today. I will post it when I find it again.

But there was no massacre or slavery thing.

Don't bother posting. I'm not interested in reading fiction.

 

[KWED]

Of course. When people make very specific, bias searches it takes only 30 seconds to be as shallow and as bias as you are.

But generally educated people do better research. Read the encyclopaedia of wars by Charles and Alan. Only 7% of all wars ever recorded were motivated by any religion.

"Don't be biased in your research. Just read this one book that appears support my straw man argument!"

 

[KWED]

People of Ibrahim (a) were going to be destroyed by God for kicking out believers and seeking to oppress them, same case, was going to happen with Mecca/Becca, but due to some good men in Yathrib later to be called Madina Al-Munuwara, who invited Mohammad (s) to come with his followers, and prayed that Mecca be spared and delayed harm, Allah (swt) did not destroy Mecca.

The believers with Ibrahim (a) were patient in trials, and God then destroyed their enemies, as he did with people of Pharaoh.

However, you are not quoting it in context. This an example for while the people are in hostility. If people cease hostility, then God says perhaps he will put love:


In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. . O you who believe! do not take My enemy and your enemy for friends: would you offer them love while they deny what has come to you of the truth, driving out the Apostle and yourselves because you believe in Allah, your Lord? If you go forth struggling hard in My path and seeking My pleasure, would you manifest love to them? And I know what you conceal and what you manifest; and whoever of you does this, he indeed has gone astray from the straight path. 1If they find you, they will be your enemies, and will stretch forth towards you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they ardently desire that you may disbelieve. 2Your relationship would not profit you, nor your children on the day of resurrection; He will decide between you; and Allah sees what you do. 3Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone-- but not in what Ibrahim said to his father: I would certainly ask forgiveness for you, and I do not control for you aught from Allah-- Our Lord! on Thee do we rely, and to Thee do we turn, and to Thee is the eventual coming: 4Our Lord! do not make us a trial for those who disbelieve, and forgive us, our Lord! surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. 5Certainly there is for you in them a good example, for him who fears Allah and the last day; and whoever turns back, then surely Allah is the Self-sufficient, the Praised. 6It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them; and Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 7Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. 8Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust. 9O you who believe! when believing women come to you flying, then examine them; Allah knows best their faith; then if you find them to be believing women, do not send them back to the unbelievers, neither are these (women) lawful for them, nor are those (men) lawful for them, and give them what they have spent; and no blame attaches to you in marrying them when you give them their dowries; and hold not to the ties of marriage of unbelieving women, and ask for what you have spent, and let them ask for what they have spent. That is Allah's judgment; He judges between you, and Allah is Knowing, Wise. 10And if anything (out of the dowries) of your wives has passed away from you to the unbelievers, then your turn comes, give to those whose wives have gone away the like of what they have spent, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah in Whom you believe. 11O Prophet! when believing women come to you giving you a pledge that they will not associate aught with Allah, and will not steal, and will not commit fornication, and will not kill their children, and will not bring a calumny which they have forged of themselves, and will not disobey you in what is good, accept their pledge, and ask forgiveness for them from Allah; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 12O you who believe! do not make friends with a people with whom Allah is wroth; indeed they despair of the hereafter as the unbelievers despair of those in tombs. 13

I will highlight from this:


Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice. 8Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.

And:

It may be that Allah will bring about friendship/love between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them; and Allah is Powerful; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


So we see its not as you interpret.

The sentence is contextualized not to mean what you said.

Also the word tawala and wali and awliya are contextual. There is a relationship we should not have with people who disbelieve at the end. This is true. But it does not mean all type of love and friendship is forbidden, as we can see, the Quran says he has not forbidden us for those who do not fight us for our religion and its even a case of justice towards non-Muslims to love them and care for them and be good towards them and friendship is not forbidden. The last verse in the Surah is thus a bad translation, as the word Tawala here is contextualized not to include friendship and love, which we are allowed, but this means a specific relationship we are also forbidden or a level of love and friendship that is forbidden.

The word in the last verse I quoted includes affection in the love, and so that is known as highest word of love in Arabic. It says it maybe that God puts that between them and their enemies. But they have to cease hostility.

No idea what point you are trying to make there, but as you claim the Quran is false/has always been misinterpreted, I fail to see why you are concerned over its contents, especially is your response require interpretation.

But just to clarify, verse 60:4 of the Quran tells Muslims that Abraham's hatred for disbelievers is a good example to follow. It says it very Cleary and explicitly. There is no other possible interpretation.
What it says elsewhere in the Quran is irrelevant - except to demonstrate that the Quran can be self-contradictory, something that the Quran itself says is a sign that it is not from god.
QED.

 

[KWED]

So you use disbelief in a circular way to assert it must say these things.

No. I use the words in the Quran to assert what the Quran says.
You, on the other hand, have to invent statements that are not in the Quran to explain why you claim that the Quran doesn't mean what it says. You can see why the Quran is such a useful tool for the radicalises and extremists. They only have to say "Look at what the Quran says!" rather than "Don't read the Quran, read my 10 page essay on why that verse means something different to what it says".

 

[Link]

Wait, your justification for the claim "Quran is the best epistemic authority" is "To recognize the Quran as an epistemic authority you have to recognize it as an epistemic authority and accept its content"? Lmfao.

There's a difference between the true religion as an abstract concept and the specific instance of it. My claim is still within arguing for abstract.