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Quran is free of errors
- Thread starter Zhakir
- Start date
Response: They all will show the same result as to the authenticity and scientific miracles of the qur'an.
themadhair
Well-Known Member
This thread has discussed the koran. The claim was made that the koran was free from error. The koran was demonstrated to contain errors, and those errors were often reflective of the current knowledge available to the writer in the 7th century.
Given that this thread was squarely about the koran, and given that my comment was squarely about the koran (and claims made about the koran), why have claimed I have not discussed the koran?
riverfox
A slave of Allah (swt)
Yes they do,but they fail to prove what they claim
Mainly they claim that this verse of the Qur'an claims that the earth is flat.
"And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)."
[Al-Qur’an 71:19]
1. Earth made as a carpet
The sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says:
"That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads."
[Al-Qur’an 71:20]
A similar message is repeated in Surah TaHa:
"He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)...."
[Al-Qur’an 20:53]
The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.
2. Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface
Not a single verse of the Qur’an says that the earth is flat. The Qur’an only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.
Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Qur’an describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Qur’an is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.
3. Earth has been spread out
Similarly, the Qur’an says in several verses that the earth has been spread out.
"And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!"
[Al-Qur’an 51:48]
Similarly the Qur’an also mentions in several other verses that the earth is an expanse:
"Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse"
"And the mountains as pegs?"
[Al-Qur’an 78:6-7]
None of these verses of the Qur’an contain even the slightest implication that the earth is flat. It only indicates that the earth is spacious and the reason for this spaciousness of the earth is mentioned. The Glorious Qur’an says:
"O My servants who believe! truly. spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me –(And Me alone)!"
[Al-Qur’an 29:56]
Therefore none can give the excuse, that he could not do good and was forced to do evil because of the surroundings and circumstances.
4. Earth is oblate spheroid in shape
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:
"And we have made the earth egg shaped".
[Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is oblate spheroid in shape exactly like the shape of the earth. NOT prolate spheroid,
Thus the Qur’an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.
Mainly they claim that this verse of the Qur'an claims that the earth is flat.
"And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)."
[Al-Qur’an 71:19]
1. Earth made as a carpet
The sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says:
"That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads."
[Al-Qur’an 71:20]
A similar message is repeated in Surah TaHa:
"He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)...."
[Al-Qur’an 20:53]
The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.
2. Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface
Not a single verse of the Qur’an says that the earth is flat. The Qur’an only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.
Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Qur’an describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Qur’an is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.
3. Earth has been spread out
Similarly, the Qur’an says in several verses that the earth has been spread out.
"And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!"
[Al-Qur’an 51:48]
Similarly the Qur’an also mentions in several other verses that the earth is an expanse:
"Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse"
"And the mountains as pegs?"
[Al-Qur’an 78:6-7]
None of these verses of the Qur’an contain even the slightest implication that the earth is flat. It only indicates that the earth is spacious and the reason for this spaciousness of the earth is mentioned. The Glorious Qur’an says:
"O My servants who believe! truly. spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me –(And Me alone)!"
[Al-Qur’an 29:56]
Therefore none can give the excuse, that he could not do good and was forced to do evil because of the surroundings and circumstances.
4. Earth is oblate spheroid in shape
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:
"And we have made the earth egg shaped".
[Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is oblate spheroid in shape exactly like the shape of the earth. NOT prolate spheroid,
Thus the Qur’an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.
themadhair
Well-Known Member
Actually the koran reads exactly like I would expect it to if it was describing earth shaped as below:
But feel free to continue with the revisionistic interpreting of a book clearly reflecting a 7th century understanding. It displays a certain fanaticism.
The Earth is an oblate spheroid, but an egg, including an ostrich egg, is a prolate spheroid.
From the mighty Wiki:
Actually, an egg shape isn't quite a prolate spheroid, though it's closer to a prolate spheroid than an oblate spheroid. As Wiki puts it:
So... to sum up:
- the Earth is an oblate spheroid: its polar diameter is smaller than its equatorial diameter.
- an ostrich egg is almost a prolate spheroid, since its polar diameter is larger than its equatorial diameter.
- an ostrich egg is not strictly spheroidal at all, since it does not have reflectional symmetry across its equatorial plane... IOW, it's got one wide end and one narrow end.
- put this all together and you get this: the Earth is not egg-shaped.
riverfox
A slave of Allah (swt)
Because you throw random thoughts,infact the term "Qur'an is complete crap" is breaking the forums's rules.
Random personal thoughts,not Qur'an.
themadhair
Well-Known Member
Did you dishonestly leave out the quantifier 'as a work of science' so you could play persecution victim?
Response: Yes. I always say that when a person's argument results to such words, it's because they have no rebuttle, thus confirming the miracle of the qur'an.
riverfox
A slave of Allah (swt)
Incorrect,According the "mighty Wiki" this is a prolate spheroid
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/ProlateSpheroid.png
And according to mighty Wiki this is an ostrich egg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Ostrich_egg.jpg
Zhakir allready showed you that the ostrich egg is different.
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darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
Obvious lies should be against forum rules as well. 20 pages ago in this thread i went through a few wonderous miracles presented from an Islamic website and im sorry, but my 8 years old cousin could make a better scietific presentation from it.
THE QURAN IS A STORY, NOT A TEXTBOOK ON SCIENCE. STOP EMBARRASSING YOURSELVES BY TRYING TO WAGE WAR WITH THE SCIENCE COMMUNITY ABOUT WHO DISCOVERED WHAT FIRST.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I understand. Since I do not speak well of Islam there is obviously some problem with my understanding of Islam. The point is that if I actually understood the majesty of Islam I would speak only in glowing terms about it and Muslims. What is perhaps impossible for you to appreciate is just how badly Islam comes off to the non-Muslim reader who has no interest in converting to Islam. What is more, explanations by Muslims seeking to clarify aspects of Islam just make this overall impression worse.
If you follow my posts here on RF you will find that I talk quite a lot about Islam and the "Noble" Qur'an. Please do try to appreciate that I do not accept either the authenticity or the authority of the Qur'an and neither do I accept that Muhammad was even a prophet. Let's call it a difference of opinion.
A bunch of rather fanatical Muslims, why do you need to ask? To clarify, 15 were Saudi Arabian, 3 others were from the UAE, and one from Lebanon and Egypt respectively. Is there some doubt about this information?
This is a lousy comparison as anyone can get into a car and attempt to drive it. The fallacy of this comparison is that it assumes the comparison is legitimate. It isn't. Muslims are not like the drivers of Islam. Islam is the driver of Muslims. So let's get it right, please. Unlike many Muslims on RF, I do strive for accuracy.
A far better comparison would be of judging a school by its students. You can easily poll a random group of the students and come to a conclusion about how effective the school was at doing its job. If the students did poorly overall, then you could conclude that there is something wrong with the course material or in the teaching method or in the teachers themselves. If the students are Muslims and Islam is the school then we can conclude that there is indeed something wrong in one of the areas mentioned above.
You assume, incorrectly, that I have not done just that. You see it wasn't the anti-Muslim sites that convinced that there was something smelly in Islam; it was the authentic Islamic sites that convinced me that Muslims have distinct problems with critical thinking. Like our fine feathered Muslim friends in this thread, you do not seem to be an exception to this rule.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
I still am trying to figure out why they are so eager to prove the science created by infidels resides within the pages of the "Noble" Qur'an. They are, in essence, saying that the Qur'an is riddled with infidel thought. I wonder why they would want to do that?
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
i think they're trying to prove that "infidel thought" is riddled with "Islamic Truths". and that, before long, we will all come to understand that Islam is the only truth!
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
But even if that is the case, and I expect it is, there is still the rather embarrasing fact that they have had all this information at their proverbial fingertips for generations. One would think, if the assertions are in fact true, that Muslims would have figured prominently in the massive growth of science over the last 150 years. When you consider that there has been relative silence from Muslim quarters during the largetest growth of scientfic thought in history that they are tacitly admiting that they don't know what they have been sitting on all along. Personally, I consider this line of thinking on the part of Muslims, as perhaps Islam's last gasp before the movement runs out of steam altogether and begins to fold in on itself.i think they're trying to prove that "infidel thought" is riddled with "Islamic Truths". and that, before long, we will all come to understand that Islam is the only truth!
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
i dont quite know what to make of it myself. when reading these threads, i have to constantly remind myself that these are adults, and not small children.
it has a definite smell of desperation on their part. but i dont think this "movement" is in any danger of folding in on itself. that would require them to acknowledge reality, but they dont need to, they have "Islamic Reality".
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Ok, ok, I am an unrepentant optimist.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
riverfox
A slave of Allah (swt)
You should reply to what the Qur'an says first,only by saying "NOT A TEXTBOOK ON SCIENCE" will not support your claims.
riverfox
A slave of Allah (swt)
Again YmirGF you are throwing your random thoughts.We believe that Islam should be the driver of all people.
Why are most of the Muslims fundamentalists and terrorists?
This question is often hurled at Muslims, either directly or indirectly, during any discussion on religion or world affairs. Muslim stereotypes are perpetuated in every form of the media accompanied by gross misinformation about Islam and Muslims. In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims. A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.
Let us analyze this allegation of ‘fundamentalism’ and ‘terrorism’:
1. Definition of the word ‘fundamentalist’
A fundamentalist is a person who follows and adheres to the fundamentals of the doctrine or theory he is following. For a person to be a good doctor, he should know, follow, and practise the fundamentals of medicine. In other words, he should be a fundamentalist in the field of medicine. For a person to be a good mathematician, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of mathematics. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of mathematics. For a person to be a good scientist, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of science. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of science.
2. Not all ‘fundamentalists’ are the same
One cannot paint all fundamentalists with the same brush. One cannot categorize all fundamentalists as either good or bad. Such a categorization of any fund amentalist will depend upon the field or activity in which he is a fundamentalist. A fundamentalist robber or thief causes harm to society and is therefore undesirable. A fundamentalist doctor, on the other hand, benefits society and earns much respect.
3. I am proud to be a Muslim fundamentalist
I am a fundamentalist Muslim who, by the grace of Allah, knows, follows and strives to practise the fundamentals of Islam. A true Muslim does not shy away from being a fundamentalist. I am proud to be a fundamentalist Muslim because, I know that the fundamentals of Islam are beneficial to humanity and the whole world. There is not a single fundamental of Islam that causes harm or is against the interests of the human race as a whole. Many people harbour misconceptions about Islam and consider several teachings of Islam to be unfair or improper. This is due to insufficient and incorrect knowledge of Islam. If one critically analyzes the teachings of Islam with an open mind, one cannot escape the fact that Islam is full of benefits both at the individual and collective levels.
4. Dictionary meaning of the word ‘fundamentalist’
According to Webster’s dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ was a movement in American Protestanism that arose in the earlier part of the 20th century. It was a reaction to modernism, and stressed the infallibility of the Bible, not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record. It stressed on belief in the Bible as the literal word of God. Thus fundamentalism was a word initially used for a group of Christians who believed that the Bible was the verbatim word of God without any errors and mistakes.
According to the Oxford dictionary ‘fundamentalism’means ‘strict maintenance of ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion, especially Islam’.
Today the moment a person uses the word fundamentalist he thinks of a Muslim who is a terrorist.
5. Every Muslim should be a terrorist
Every Muslim should be a terrorist. A terrorist is a person who causes terror. The moment a robber sees a policeman he is terrified. A policeman is a terrorist for the robber. Similarly every Muslim should be a terrorist for the antisocial elements of society, such as thieves, dacoits and rapists. Whenever such an anti-social element sees a Muslim, he should be terrified. It is true that the word ‘terrorist’ is generally used for a person who causes terror among the common people. But a true Muslim should only be a terrorist to selective people i.e. anti-social elements, and not to the common innocent people. In fact a Muslim should be a source of peace for innocent people.
6. Different labels given to the same individual for the same action, i.e. ‘terrorist’ and ‘patriot’
Before India achieved independence from British rule, some freedom fighters of India who did not subscribe to non-violence were labeled as terrorists by the British government. The same individuals have been lauded by Indians for the same activities and hailed as ‘patriots’. Thus two different labels have been given to the same people for the same set of actions. One is calling him a terrorist while the other is calling him a patriot. Those who believed that Britain had a right to rule over India called these people terrorists, while those who were of the view that Britain had no right to rule India called them patriots and freedom fighters.
It is therefore important that before a person is judged, he is given a fair hearing. Both sides of the argument should be heard, the situation should be analyzed, and the reason and the intention of the person should be taken into account, and then the person can be judged accordingly.
7. Islam means peace
Islam is derived from the word ‘salaam’ which means peace. It is a religion of peace whose fundamentals teach its followers to maintain and promote peace throughout the world.
Thus every Muslim should be a fundamentalist i.e. he should follow the fundamentals of the Religion of Peace: Islam. He should be a terrorist only towards the antisocial elements in order to promote peace and justice in the society.
Why are most of the Muslims fundamentalists and terrorists?
This question is often hurled at Muslims, either directly or indirectly, during any discussion on religion or world affairs. Muslim stereotypes are perpetuated in every form of the media accompanied by gross misinformation about Islam and Muslims. In fact, such misinformation and false propaganda often leads to discrimination and acts of violence against Muslims. A case in point is the anti-Muslim campaign in the American media following the Oklahoma bomb blast, where the press was quick to declare a ‘Middle Eastern conspiracy’ behind the attack. The culprit was later identified as a soldier from the American Armed Forces.
Let us analyze this allegation of ‘fundamentalism’ and ‘terrorism’:
1. Definition of the word ‘fundamentalist’
A fundamentalist is a person who follows and adheres to the fundamentals of the doctrine or theory he is following. For a person to be a good doctor, he should know, follow, and practise the fundamentals of medicine. In other words, he should be a fundamentalist in the field of medicine. For a person to be a good mathematician, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of mathematics. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of mathematics. For a person to be a good scientist, he should know, follow and practise the fundamentals of science. He should be a fundamentalist in the field of science.
2. Not all ‘fundamentalists’ are the same
One cannot paint all fundamentalists with the same brush. One cannot categorize all fundamentalists as either good or bad. Such a categorization of any fund amentalist will depend upon the field or activity in which he is a fundamentalist. A fundamentalist robber or thief causes harm to society and is therefore undesirable. A fundamentalist doctor, on the other hand, benefits society and earns much respect.
3. I am proud to be a Muslim fundamentalist
I am a fundamentalist Muslim who, by the grace of Allah, knows, follows and strives to practise the fundamentals of Islam. A true Muslim does not shy away from being a fundamentalist. I am proud to be a fundamentalist Muslim because, I know that the fundamentals of Islam are beneficial to humanity and the whole world. There is not a single fundamental of Islam that causes harm or is against the interests of the human race as a whole. Many people harbour misconceptions about Islam and consider several teachings of Islam to be unfair or improper. This is due to insufficient and incorrect knowledge of Islam. If one critically analyzes the teachings of Islam with an open mind, one cannot escape the fact that Islam is full of benefits both at the individual and collective levels.
4. Dictionary meaning of the word ‘fundamentalist’
According to Webster’s dictionary ‘fundamentalism’ was a movement in American Protestanism that arose in the earlier part of the 20th century. It was a reaction to modernism, and stressed the infallibility of the Bible, not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record. It stressed on belief in the Bible as the literal word of God. Thus fundamentalism was a word initially used for a group of Christians who believed that the Bible was the verbatim word of God without any errors and mistakes.
According to the Oxford dictionary ‘fundamentalism’means ‘strict maintenance of ancient or fundamental doctrines of any religion, especially Islam’.
Today the moment a person uses the word fundamentalist he thinks of a Muslim who is a terrorist.
5. Every Muslim should be a terrorist
Every Muslim should be a terrorist. A terrorist is a person who causes terror. The moment a robber sees a policeman he is terrified. A policeman is a terrorist for the robber. Similarly every Muslim should be a terrorist for the antisocial elements of society, such as thieves, dacoits and rapists. Whenever such an anti-social element sees a Muslim, he should be terrified. It is true that the word ‘terrorist’ is generally used for a person who causes terror among the common people. But a true Muslim should only be a terrorist to selective people i.e. anti-social elements, and not to the common innocent people. In fact a Muslim should be a source of peace for innocent people.
6. Different labels given to the same individual for the same action, i.e. ‘terrorist’ and ‘patriot’
Before India achieved independence from British rule, some freedom fighters of India who did not subscribe to non-violence were labeled as terrorists by the British government. The same individuals have been lauded by Indians for the same activities and hailed as ‘patriots’. Thus two different labels have been given to the same people for the same set of actions. One is calling him a terrorist while the other is calling him a patriot. Those who believed that Britain had a right to rule over India called these people terrorists, while those who were of the view that Britain had no right to rule India called them patriots and freedom fighters.
It is therefore important that before a person is judged, he is given a fair hearing. Both sides of the argument should be heard, the situation should be analyzed, and the reason and the intention of the person should be taken into account, and then the person can be judged accordingly.
7. Islam means peace
Islam is derived from the word ‘salaam’ which means peace. It is a religion of peace whose fundamentals teach its followers to maintain and promote peace throughout the world.
Thus every Muslim should be a fundamentalist i.e. he should follow the fundamentals of the Religion of Peace: Islam. He should be a terrorist only towards the antisocial elements in order to promote peace and justice in the society.