Quran Scientific Miracles.

[KWED]

I have been hearing a lot of talk about the Quran containing specific scientific knowledge that could not possibly have been known at the time it was written, and that has only recently been confirmed by modern science.

Could anyone present a couple of best examples of these science miracles so we can see if they are what they claim to be?
Also, could you show where Islamic scholars have revealed this knowledge before science did?
Thanks

@MyM

 

[exchemist]

I have been hearing a lot of talk about the Quran containing specific scientific knowledge that could not possibly have been known at the time it was written, and that has only recently been confirmed by modern science.

Could anyone present a couple of best examples of these science miracles so we can see if they are what they claim to be?
Also, could you show where Islamic scholars have revealed this knowledge before science did?
Thanks

@MyM

There seem to be two different issues mentioned here. Are you asking about knowledge of science, or about miracles?

 

[mangalavara]

Could anyone present a couple of best examples of these science miracles so we can see if they are what they claim to be?

And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves (Qur'an 16.15, Yusuf Ali translation).​

Something about mountains keeping the land from shaking. My favorite claim! Research shows that the power of an earthquake can be reduced by mountains, and that the power of an earthquake can even be multiplied by mountains. Regardless of how some mountains influence earthquakes, what does 'lest it (the land) should shake with you' even mean? We shake, which triggers the land to shake, so mountains are there to keep it from shaking with us? That, from my perspective, is silly.

Interestingly, the Arabic word in the Qur'anic verse above translated above as 'with' as in 'shake with you' is bi. This word can also be translated as 'because of' or 'on account of.' In my opinion, a better translation would be, 'lest it should shake because of you.' As for the land shaking, is it literally or figuratively shaking? I say figuratively. If I were a Muslim, I would interpret the verse to mean that one reason mountains exist is so that the land does not 'shake' in anger because of human beings. Human beings destroy all kinds of life wherever they go. Without mountains, there would be a lot less biodiversity. Thanks to mountains, the land, the earth has a large variety of life that human beings have not obliterated. So, I guess the land is not shaking in anger and asking its creator to relieve it of humanity.

 

[KWED]

There seem to be two different issues mentioned here. Are you asking about knowledge of science, or about miracles?

The two are connected.
The claim is that the Quran contains specific scientific knowledge that could not possibly have been known at the time, therefore the source of this knowledge must have been "miraculous" (sent by god). I am sceptical that the Quran contains any such scientific knowledge and suspect that either there is no reference to "scientific facts", or if there is, it was knowledge already available at the time.

 

[KWED]

And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves (Qur'an 16.15, Yusuf Ali translation).

OK. So what "scientific knowledge is expressed there?
The existence of mountains is clearly apparent.
"Standing firm" is somewhat vague, but seems to imply an ignorance of the fact that mountains are not necessarily permanent or fixed. Mountain ranges grow and shrink through tectonic and volcanic activity and erosion.
"Lest it should shake with you" implies that mountains prevent earthquakes. This is certainly not the case. Some of the most earthquake-prone regions of the world are mountainous, and many mountain-free regions do not experience any earthquakes.

Also, god did not set up roads. That are, by definition, man-made.

 

[exchemist]

The two are connected.
The claim is that the Quran contains specific scientific knowledge that could not possibly have been known at the time, therefore the source of this knowledge must have been "miraculous" (sent by god). I am sceptical that the Quran contains any such scientific knowledge and suspect that either there is no reference to "scientific facts", or if there is, it was knowledge already available at the time.

Oh I see. So a bit like Christian creationists, who claim the bible gives a scientific account of how the world came to be, the common idea presumably being divine inspiration of scripture.

 

[KWED]

Oh I see. So a bit like Christian creationists, who claim the bible gives a scientific account of how the world came to be, the common idea presumably being divine inspiration of scripture.

Yes. A common example is the "human embryology miracle". The Quran contains a vague description - "And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay. Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging. Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump of flesh, and We made from the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation."
Apologists claim this is a complete and accurate description that could not possibly have been known at the time.
The obvious problem is that it is neither complete nor accurate.
The other main problem is that it is no more accurate or complete than descriptions provided centuries earlier by Aristotle and Galen.

 

[exchemist]

Yes. A common example is the "human embryology miracle". The Quran contains a vague description - "And certainly did We create man from an extract of clay. Then We placed him as a sperm-drop in a firm lodging. Then We made the sperm-drop into a clinging clot, and We made the clot into a lump of flesh, and We made from the lump, bones, and We covered the bones with flesh; then We developed him into another creation."
Apologists claim this is a complete and accurate description that could not possibly have been known at the time.
The obvious problem is that it is neither complete nor accurate.
The other main problem is that it is no more accurate or complete than descriptions provided centuries earlier by Aristotle and Galen.

Yes. But this is all a bit obvious, isn't it? What are you really trying to prove?

 

[Augustus]

Yes. But this is all a bit obvious, isn't it? What are you really trying to prove?

That a cringey 1980s Saudi government funded apologetics PR initiative based on tenuous reading of scripture and highly contrived reasoning is , wait for it....., unpersuasive to non-Muslims as it is obviously a cringey apologetics PR initiative based on tenuous readings of scripture and highly contrived reasoning

 

[exchemist]

That a cringey 1980s Saudi government funded apologetics PR initiative based on tenuous reading of scripture and highly contrived reasoning is , wait for it....., unpersuasive to non-Muslims as it is obviously a cringey apologetics PR initiative based on tenuous readings of scripture and highly contrived reasoning

I didn't know there had been a Saudi PR campaign on this stuff. I do know they funded the export of Wahhabi islam around that time (the same time I was smuggling Christmas puddings into Riyadh, I'm proud to say. And the same time some enterprising Filipinos were actually exporting blue movies from Jeddah - I take my hat off to them for that).

 

[mangalavara]

OK. So what "scientific knowledge is expressed there?
The existence of mountains is clearly apparent.
"Standing firm" is somewhat vague, but seems to imply an ignorance of the fact that mountains are not necessarily permanent or fixed. Mountain ranges grow and shrink through tectonic and volcanic activity and erosion.
"Lest it should shake with you" implies that mountains prevent earthquakes. This is certainly not the case. Some of the most earthquake-prone regions of the world are mountainous, and many mountain-free regions do not experience any earthquakes.

Also, god did not set up roads. That are, by definition, man-made.

Did you even read my post?

 

[Augustus]

I didn't know there had been a Saudi PR campaign on this stuff. I do know they funded the export of Wahhabi islam around that time (the same time I was smuggling Christmas puddings into Riyadh, I'm proud to say. And the same time some enterprising Filipinos were actually exporting blue movies from Jeddah - I take my hat off to them for that).

The Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah is an organization established to publicize what it calls "Scientific Signs found in the Quran and Sunna", i.e. references to what it believes are numerous discoveries of science (everything from relativity, quantum mechanics, Big Bang theory, genetics, embryology, to the laser) found in the Quran and Sunnah). It was founded by Sheikh Abdul Majeed al-Zindani with the backing of the Muslim World League in 1984 in Saudi Arabia. The commission is also known as "World Book and Sunnah Association",[Note 1] The International Commission,[2] or World Commission on Scientific Signs of the Qur'an and Sunnah...

A criticism made of the commission is that in its enthusiasm to prove that evidence in favor of Qur'anic scientific miracles “is clear and obvious" and to demonstrate that "a group of eminent non-Muslim scholars in several fields” has testified to this miraculous connection,[13] the commission has spread misleading, out-of-context statements by several of these non-Muslim scholars.[7]

In 1984, a member of the commission, Mustafa Abdul Basit Ahmed, moved to the United States to recruit non-Muslim Western scientists to verify the miraculous signs of the Quran. However, in a 2002 story[7] in the American newspaper The Wall Street Journal, several non-Muslim scientists spoke of questionable practices used by the commission to coax statements from them, such as hard-sell interviews by Sheikh Abdul Majeed al-Zindani, and promises to be “completely neutral” that were not kept.

The commission drew the scientists to its conferences with first-class plane tickets for them and their wives, rooms at the best hotels, $1,000 honoraria, and banquets with Muslim leaders — such as a palace dinner in Islamabad with Pakistani President Mohammed Zia ul-Haq shortly before he was killed in a plane crash. Ahmed also gave at least one scientist a crystal clock.[7]

Marine scientist William W. Hay complained of having fallen into a "trap" in interviews,[7] while embryologist Gerald Goeringer claimed "mutual manipulation" between the scientists and conference organizers.[7] Retired Geologist Professor Alfred Kröner of the University of Mainz has a standard e-mail reply clarifying his "out of context" remarks during one of the conferences and has described the proceedings which resulted in his remarks being used by Muslim apologists.

One product of Abdul Majeed al-Zindani's efforts was a video on "scientific miracles" called "This is Truth",[14] which included clips of Western scientists allegedly expressing their astonishment with the prescience of the Quran on various scientific matters. In 2012, four of the Western scientists featured in "This Is The Truth" -- Alfred Kröner,[15] William W. Hay,[16] Allison (Pete) Palmer,[17] and Tom Armstrong[18]—were featured again in video interviews, this time by the video channel "This Is The Truth Uncut". They told the interviewer ("TheRationalizer") they were misrepresented, their video quotes were taken out of context (often after days of preparation to get them to say words that could be used in the video),[16] and were sometimes quoted in written works saying things they had no recollection whatever of saying

Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah - Wikipedia

 

[Span2]

I have been hearing a lot of talk about the Quran containing specific scientific knowledge that could not possibly have been known at the time it was written, and that has only recently been confirmed by modern science.

Could anyone present a couple of best examples of these science miracles so we can see if they are what they claim to be?
Also, could you show where Islamic scholars have revealed this knowledge before science did?
Thanks

@MyM

Maybe knowledge by esoteric religious scholars? Maybe thats the miracle, since no other religious culture has been very thorough interms of ownership as this one in a sense of dominance culture

 

[KWED]

Yes. But this is all a bit obvious, isn't it? What are you really trying to prove?

There are several threads on here where people keep dropping these claims and the subsequent to and fro gets lost in the other issues being discussed. I wanted a dedicated thread on the subject. Religious debate, and all that?

 

[KWED]

Did you even read my post?

Yes.

 

[exchemist]

The Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah is an organization established to publicize what it calls "Scientific Signs found in the Quran and Sunna", i.e. references to what it believes are numerous discoveries of science (everything from relativity, quantum mechanics, Big Bang theory, genetics, embryology, to the laser) found in the Quran and Sunnah). It was founded by Sheikh Abdul Majeed al-Zindani with the backing of the Muslim World League in 1984 in Saudi Arabia. The commission is also known as "World Book and Sunnah Association",[Note 1] The International Commission,[2] or World Commission on Scientific Signs of the Qur'an and Sunnah...

A criticism made of the commission is that in its enthusiasm to prove that evidence in favor of Qur'anic scientific miracles “is clear and obvious" and to demonstrate that "a group of eminent non-Muslim scholars in several fields” has testified to this miraculous connection,[13] the commission has spread misleading, out-of-context statements by several of these non-Muslim scholars.[7]

In 1984, a member of the commission, Mustafa Abdul Basit Ahmed, moved to the United States to recruit non-Muslim Western scientists to verify the miraculous signs of the Quran. However, in a 2002 story[7] in the American newspaper The Wall Street Journal, several non-Muslim scientists spoke of questionable practices used by the commission to coax statements from them, such as hard-sell interviews by Sheikh Abdul Majeed al-Zindani, and promises to be “completely neutral” that were not kept.

The commission drew the scientists to its conferences with first-class plane tickets for them and their wives, rooms at the best hotels, $1,000 honoraria, and banquets with Muslim leaders — such as a palace dinner in Islamabad with Pakistani President Mohammed Zia ul-Haq shortly before he was killed in a plane crash. Ahmed also gave at least one scientist a crystal clock.[7]

Marine scientist William W. Hay complained of having fallen into a "trap" in interviews,[7] while embryologist Gerald Goeringer claimed "mutual manipulation" between the scientists and conference organizers.[7] Retired Geologist Professor Alfred Kröner of the University of Mainz has a standard e-mail reply clarifying his "out of context" remarks during one of the conferences and has described the proceedings which resulted in his remarks being used by Muslim apologists.

One product of Abdul Majeed al-Zindani's efforts was a video on "scientific miracles" called "This is Truth",[14] which included clips of Western scientists allegedly expressing their astonishment with the prescience of the Quran on various scientific matters. In 2012, four of the Western scientists featured in "This Is The Truth" -- Alfred Kröner,[15] William W. Hay,[16] Allison (Pete) Palmer,[17] and Tom Armstrong[18]—were featured again in video interviews, this time by the video channel "This Is The Truth Uncut". They told the interviewer ("TheRationalizer") they were misrepresented, their video quotes were taken out of context (often after days of preparation to get them to say words that could be used in the video),[16] and were sometimes quoted in written works saying things they had no recollection whatever of saying

Commission on Scientific Signs in the Quran and Sunnah - Wikipedia

Oh, this is just like that Christian creationist film, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed". Very much the same sorts of manipulative techniques.

But thanks for posting. Something to be aware of.

 

[Link]

I have been hearing a lot of talk about the Quran containing specific scientific knowledge that could not possibly have been known at the time it was written, and that has only recently been confirmed by modern science.

Could anyone present a couple of best examples of these science miracles so we can see if they are what they claim to be?
Also, could you show where Islamic scholars have revealed this knowledge before science did?
Thanks

@MyM

How about the words used for mountains. Did people know mountains were like pegs into the earth and stabilized earth from constantly shaking?

 

[exchemist]

There are several threads on here where people keep dropping these claims and the subsequent to and fro gets lost in the other issues being discussed. I wanted a dedicated thread on the subject. Religious debate, and all that?

OK. But you won't get many - if any - takers this way, as it's too obviously coat-trailing. People periodically try this approach with the Christian creationists and draw a blank. Nobody comes forward just to be hammered.

I think you'll have more luck drawing out the views of individual people when they express such ideas incidentally in other threads.

 

[Link]

OK. So what "scientific knowledge is expressed there?
The existence of mountains is clearly apparent.
"Standing firm" is somewhat vague, but seems to imply an ignorance of the fact that mountains are not necessarily permanent or fixed. Mountain ranges grow and shrink through tectonic and volcanic activity and erosion.
"Lest it should shake with you" implies that mountains prevent earthquakes. This is certainly not the case. Some of the most earthquake-prone regions of the world are mountainous, and many mountain-free regions do not experience any earthquakes.

Also, god did not set up roads. That are, by definition, man-made.

There would be a lot more shaking without mountains.

 

[Augustus]

There would be a lot more shaking without mountains.

Mountains can either reduce or amplify the intensity of earthquakes depending on a variety of factors.

So saying mountains reduce shaking would be a 'miracle' and saying mountains increase shaking would also be a 'miracle'

And therein lies the rub...