Race and Religion

[Vinayaka]

This is a hot topic, but I'm curious. I often wonder how race (racism) plays a part in the formation of congregations, acceptance of others, and more. I think it's more prevalent than most of us would like to believe, as it's almost a hidden, or forbidden topic, due to political correctness.

I think all faiths, whether they want to admit it or not, are affected. Sometimes language might be the basis for segregation, but that one could just as easily be veiled race, and nobody wants to admit it, let alone discuss it, given the taboo,

Examples ... In Chistianity, in the South, are there still all-African American or 95% African American congregations? (I honestly don't know) What happens when a Caucasian enters? Is he made to feel welcome, or will he/she not even go because of the make-up of the congregation? (Like go once and not go back?)

In my city there are several ethnic Christian churches, like a Korean one, for instance. Is this totally language based, or are there deeper truths to it?

In my faith (Hinduism) I've seen it go both ways. I am a very tiny minority (Caucasian) in a predominantly Indian religion. I've been obviously discriminated against just twice in 40 years, but I still get stares occasionally, but that may well just be because it IS unusual. I've also seen Caucasians avoid going to Indian Hindu temples because they're too 'Indian'. I've had people say it to me.

It's also a factor in interfaith discussions. For example, if I am invited to speak at a college on behalf of Hinduism, my skin colour makes me somehow less legitimate to speak.

So I'd like to hear other peoples' experiences or thoughts, and I'd like to think we can put this 'taboo' subject out in the open in such a tolerant place as this forum. The motive of course is to help rid all religion of racism.

 

[Quintessence]

There's a book that's been written about minority issues within Neopaganism, but I haven't had the pleasure of reading it. By and large, Neopaganism is a religious demographic of converts, and those converts are middle-class to upper-middle-class folk coming from well-educated families. That ends up creating a racial disparity simply because some races in my country are still trying to get a good foothold in that socioeconomic group. I'm not going to pretend to be able to speak for them, or their status within the community. I will say that there is no religious justification for racism within Neopaganism given that the movement on the whole embraces pluralism. There are exceptions, as some insular groups can be quite elitist and exclusive. Just as well, the issue transcends religion: prevailing culture we live in and nature of group dynamics certainly play a role. Racism is virtually absent where I live, but I understand that in other places this is not the case.

 

[Vinayaka]

There's a book that's been written about minority issues within Neopaganism, but I haven't had the pleasure of reading it. By and large, Neopaganism is a religious demographic of converts, and those converts are middle-class to upper-middle-class folk coming from well-educated families. That ends up creating a racial disparity simply because some races in my country are still trying to get a good foothold in that socioeconomic group. I'm not going to pretend to be able to speak for them, or their status within the community. I will say that there is no religious justification for racism within Neopaganism given that the movement on the whole embraces pluralism. There are exceptions, as some insular groups can be quite elitist and exclusive. Just as well, the issue transcends religion: prevailing culture we live in and nature of group dynamics certainly play a role. Racism is virtually absent where I live, but I understand that in other places this is not the case.

Thank you for that. I don't know of any religion that justifies it, but there might be one out there. So it's not on the conscious level. I'm thinking more how it's on the subconscious level. I admit to, for example, thinking differently of Caucasians (I see them as newcomers, and perhaps naive) that I do of Indians at the temple I go to. (Even though I'm a Caucasian) So I make an attempt to watch that behaviour in myself. Then again it's a sorting mechanism used by the subconscious mind unconsciously, and not racism in the sense of I'm discrimination or acting unfairly to that person.

 

[Quintessence]

Well, I am aware of some hardcore reconstructionist traditions that do engage in practices that can be construed as racist. They basically feel that if you do not have an ancestral tie to the culture you are reconstructing that you have no business being part of the tradition. I'm not sure I would call that racism as much as exclusivism. There is sex-based exclusivism as well, with some groups accepting only male members or only female members. Would I call that sexism? Not really. But in today's politically correct world, if you try to make a group that isn't open to everybody, suddenly you've done something terrible.

 

[sunni56]

There's no such thing as racism in Islamic activities or in mosques. In fact, there are racist Muslims, but they certainly won't be racist in any place of worship. Mosques are probably the most tolerant places on earth in terms of being racism-free, and I'm not saying that just because I'm Muslim.

 

[Vinayaka]

There's no such thing as racism in Islamic activities or in mosques. In fact, there are racist Muslims, but they certainly won't be racist in any place of worship. Mosques are probably the most tolerant places on earth in terms of being racism-free, and I'm not saying that just because I'm Muslim.

I've never been to a Mosque to see the reaction, or non-reaction, so I can't speak from personal experience. Here in Canada I've always been welcomed at stores owned by Muslims, but then again, I'm a customer. In India I got really nasty treatment in some Muslim owned stores for being Hindu, but that wasn't tied to race, as far as I know. It could have been though.

But I think most churches, synagogues, Hindu temples etc, would say the same as you do. "There's no such thing as racism in ________ (any religion) activities or in ______________ (houses of worship). In fact there are racist _____s.

It is a good thing that no religion officially practices racism, just some practitioners.

 

[Quintessence]

Just to throw this out there... would you (or would you not) consider restricting a tradition to a certain ethnicity/bloodline/race to be racist?

Hypothetical Example:
"Oh... you don't have any Celtic ancestry? Sorry, but our Celtic reconstructionist group only accepts people who can trace their bloodline back to the Celts of the British Isles..."

 

[sunni56]

Just to throw this out there... would you (or would you not) consider restricting a tradition to a certain ethnicity/bloodline/race to be racist?

Hypothetical Example:
"Oh... you don't have any Celtic ancestry? Sorry, but our Celtic reconstructionist group only accepts people who can trace their bloodline back to the Celts of the British Isles..."

It would not be racist in my opinion, although I wouldn't want to be part of such a divisive group.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just to throw this out there... would you (or would you not) consider restricting a tradition to a certain ethnicity/bloodline/race to be racist?

Hypothetical Example:
"Oh... you don't have any Celtic ancestry? Sorry, but our Celtic reconstructionist group only accepts people who can trace their bloodline back to the Celts of the British Isles..."

Sometimes bloodlines and culture might cross with religion, although I don't know of any, offhand. It seems that you might need to be of a certain community to participate in cultural groups, although I'm sure spouses are welcome. So the local Slovenian Association puts on a Christmas feast. Stuff like that. The church (I never went) where I grew up, for example, bans outsiders from purchasing burial plots, but that's also a money issue.

There has been plenty of study on the issue, particularly in America. Google it, and you'll see. Here's one of several I found interesting. Epiphenom: Why religion can lead to racism

 

[Vinayaka]

Sunni, I have a question for you on this. I assume you're in America, but even if you're not, you might know the answer. Suppose a large American City has several mosques. Are these built at all along 'country of origin' lines?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is a hot topic, but I'm curious. I often wonder how race (racism) plays a part in the formation of congregations, acceptance of others, and more. I think it's more prevalent than most of us would like to believe, as it's almost a hidden, or forbidden topic, due to political correctness.

I think all faiths, whether they want to admit it or not, are affected. Sometimes language might be the basis for segregation, but that one could just as easily be veiled race, and nobody wants to admit it, let alone discuss it, given the taboo,

Examples ... In Chistianity, in the South, are there still all-African American or 95% African American congregations? (I honestly don't know) What happens when a Caucasian enters? Is he made to feel welcome, or will he/she not even go because of the make-up of the congregation? (Like go once and not go back?)

In my city there are several ethnic Christian churches, like a Korean one, for instance. Is this totally language based, or are there deeper truths to it?

In my faith (Hinduism) I've seen it go both ways. I am a very tiny minority (Caucasian) in a predominantly Indian religion. I've been obviously discriminated against just twice in 40 years, but I still get stares occasionally, but that may well just be because it IS unusual. I've also seen Caucasians avoid going to Indian Hindu temples because they're too 'Indian'. I've had people say it to me.

It's also a factor in interfaith discussions. For example, if I am invited to speak at a college on behalf of Hinduism, my skin colour makes me somehow less legitimate to speak.

So I'd like to hear other peoples' experiences or thoughts, and I'd like to think we can put this 'taboo' subject out in the open in such a tolerant place as this forum. The motive of course is to help rid all religion of racism.

To be honest, I think that when it comes to religions that have a strong racial/cultural connection, when a person in that religion comes from a race or culture that's outside the norm for that religion, I think it does affect my opinions.

Overall, I find religion perplexing. For any theistic belief system I've ever encountered, I simply can't understand how someone could become convinced of a religion for rational reasons... not just allowing for an intellectual possibility that the beliefs are true, but accepting that they are true with certainty to the point where a person would make them the central tenets of their life. I don't get that.

I mean, think of the "man from Mars" test: imagine a Martian - someone with no cultural baggage - came to Earth and you explained the tenets of a given religion to him. I can't imagine the Martian responding with "hmm... yes, that seems reasonable" let alone "yes, I'm convinced. I'll devote my life to those ideas, too."

Because of this, my mental explanations for religion generally focus on things like cultural factors: if religion is inculcated into a child from a young age, then it makes sense that the adult the child becomes would believe in the religion, too.

However, this explanation doesn't work in the case of people who cross cultural divides to convert to faiths that are nothing like the ones they were raised in. In the case of a Caucasian Hindu or a black Mormon, say, not only can't we appeal to cultural factors as the reason for their beliefs, but those cultural factors were probably working against them adopting those faiths.

Actually, I'd say that a Caucasian Hindu is even more of a puzzle than a black Mormon, because at least in the case of a black Mormon, since the LDS Church proselytizes, there's still the possibility that he or she just happened to meet some very convincing missionaries.

So... in cases like yours, I find religion even more puzzling than I find it normally. I simply can't relate to the process that a person would have to have gone through to go against family and cultural factors to adopt a completely new belief system.

 

[sunni56]

I've never been to a Mosque to see the reaction, or non-reaction, so I can't speak from personal experience. Here in Canada I've always been welcomed at stores owned by Muslims, but then again, I'm a customer. In India I got really nasty treatment in some Muslim owned stores for being Hindu, but that wasn't tied to race, as far as I know. It could have been though.

But I think most churches, synagogues, Hindu temples etc, would say the same as you do. "There's no such thing as racism in ________ (any religion) activities or in ______________ (houses of worship). In fact there are racist _____s.

It is a good thing that no religion officially practices racism, just some practitioners.

Well, tbh, I've encountered very segregated Churches and the like, the kind of scenes you probably will never see in a mosque. There are also racist Christians, people who use their Christianity to fuel racism. I use to have a black Christian lady as a neighbour and she spent quite a long time trying to convince us that black people are God's chosen people and that Jesus Christ was in fact a black man, it was only white people trying to paint him as white etc. I was very shocked and disturbed tbh. It is very explicit in Islamic text that Jesus Christ was very white, as white as the Europeans in fact, not the Middle-Eastern type white like Muhammad was. Christ was not black, but she wouldn't accept this.

 

[Vinayaka]

So... in cases like yours, I find religion even more puzzling than I find it normally.

I find it puzzling too. It's really rare to be a traditional Caucasian Hindu. A dabbler, not so rare. But I have honestly no problem being the only white guy in a crowd of 10 000 people, and yes its happened. I have absolutely no idea why, other than there was some crazy purpose in it that I'm not aware of.

 

[sunni56]

To be honest, I think that when it comes to religions that have a strong racial/cultural connection, when a person in that religion comes from a race or culture that's outside the norm for that religion, I think it does affect my opinions.

Overall, I find religion perplexing. For any theistic belief system I've ever encountered, I simply can't understand how someone could become convinced of a religion for rational reasons... not just allowing for an intellectual possibility that the beliefs are true, but accepting that they are true with certainty to the point where a person would make them the central tenets of their life. I don't get that.

I mean, think of the "man from Mars" test: imagine a Martian - someone with no cultural baggage - came to Earth and you explained the tenets of a given religion to him. I can't imagine the Martian responding with "hmm... yes, that seems reasonable" let alone "yes, I'm convinced. I'll devote my life to those ideas, too."

Because of this, my mental explanations for religion generally focus on things like cultural factors: if religion is inculcated into a child from a young age, then it makes sense that the adult the child becomes would believe in the religion, too.

However, this explanation doesn't work in the case of people who cross cultural divides to convert to faiths that are nothing like the ones they were raised in. In the case of a Caucasian Hindu or a black Mormon, say, not only can't we appeal to cultural factors as the reason for their beliefs, but those cultural factors were probably working against them adopting those faiths.

Actually, I'd say that a Caucasian Hindu is even more of a puzzle than a black Mormon, because at least in the case of a black Mormon, since the LDS Church proselytizes, there's still the possibility that he or she just happened to meet some very convincing missionaries.

So... in cases like yours, I find religion even more puzzling than I find it normally. I simply can't relate to the process that a person would have to have gone through to go against family and cultural factors to adopt a completely new belief system.

In all fairness, the idea that a person is "indoctrinated" to a religion as an explanation as to why they continue believing in later life is actually just not true, it is false. You cannot "indoctrinate" a child with any idea and expect the child to continue believing it with any degree of certainty throughout their life. People who are hostile to religion, use this baseless assumption to attack those who do have faith.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In all fairness, the idea that a person is "indoctrinated" to a religion as an explanation as to why they continue believing in later life is actually just not true, it is false. You cannot "indoctrinate" a child with any idea and expect the child to continue believing it with any degree of certainty throughout their life. People who are hostile to religion, use this baseless assumption to attack those who do have faith.

I didn't say "indoctrinate"; I said "inculcate". Really, all I'm pointing out is that culture tends to get handed down from generation to generation, and that religion is largely cultural.

I don't think it's "baseless" to note that the children of Christians generally tend to grow up to be Christians, the children of Muslims grow up to be Muslims, the children of Buddhists grow up to be Buddhists, etc.

Religion isn't very different from any other culturally inculcated thing in this regard. For instance, haven't you noticed that people's attitudes to various issues, whether it be women's rights, gun control, or the idea of monarchy, for instance, tend to vary depending on what culture a person was brought up in? Do you think that people's attitudes on the subject of gods and worship would be immune to the same factors that affect everything else?

And in my experience, even people who are religious themselves generally accept cultural factors as an explanation for religions other than their own.

 

[sunni56]

I didn't say "indoctrinate"; I said "inculcate". Really, all I'm pointing out is that culture tends to get handed down from generation to generation, and that religion is largely cultural.

I don't think it's "baseless" to note that the children of Christians generally tend to grow up to be Christians, the children of Muslims grow up to be Muslims, the children of Buddhists grow up to be Buddhists, etc.

Religion isn't very different from any other culturally inculcated thing in this regard. For instance, haven't you noticed that people's attitudes to various issues, whether it be women's rights, gun control, or the idea of monarchy, for instance, tend to vary depending on what culture a person was brought up in? Do you think that people's attitudes on the subject of gods and worship would be immune to the same factors that affect everything else?

And in my experience, even people who are religious themselves generally accept cultural factors as an explanation for religions other than their own.

No, you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said. I said it is baseless to suggest that that indoctrination is the reason why an adult believes what they believe. You cannot compare religion to gun control. Religious theological beliefs are verifiable and include statements that are regarded as factual, for example; We go to heaven when we die or Angels exist etc. These things are statements which eventually will either be proven true or false. The claim that we should or shouldn't have gun control is entirely subjective and in fact, could depend upon the aims of the people who hold a view or maybe their whimsical interests.

 

[Vinayaka]

l.

I don't think it's "baseless" to note that the children of Christians generally tend to grow up to be Christians, the children of Muslims grow up to be Muslims, the children of Buddhists grow up to be Buddhists, etc.

I think its also fair to generalise that the less a person gets culturally, the more 'nothingness' they are raised in, the more likely they are to find 'something' new. That was certainly my case. Free to decide, and I decided. I could be wrong though. Many people with 'nothing' may well continue on with 'nothing'. Its really a fairly comfortable place to be, all things considered.

 

[Vinayaka]

No, you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said. I said it is baseless to suggest that that indoctrination is the reason why an adult believes what they believe.

Certainly any adult who puts his or her children in a private religious school would beg to differ. Isn't that why people put there kids in private schools?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, you're deliberately misinterpreting what I said.

Actually, I was correcting your misinterpretation of what I said.

I said it is baseless to suggest that that indoctrination is the reason why an adult believes what they believe. You cannot compare religion to gun control. Religious theological beliefs are verifiable and include statements that are regarded as factual, for example; We go to heaven when we die or Angels exist etc. These things are statements which eventually will either be proven true or false. The claim that we should or shouldn't have gun control is entirely subjective and in fact, could depend upon the aims of the people who hold a view or maybe their whimsical interests.

The "verifiability" of a factual claim that can't be verified until we're dead is rather irrelevant to the living. In the here-and-now, unless you've got some evidence in your back pocket that you're keeping to yourself, both religion and issues like gun control are a matter of opinion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think its also fair to generalise that the less a person gets culturally, the more 'nothingness' they are raised in, the more likely they are to find 'something' new. That was certainly my case. Free to decide, and I decided. I could be wrong though. Many people with 'nothing' may well continue on with 'nothing'. Its really a fairly comfortable place to be, all things considered.

What would it mean to be raised in cultural "nothingness"? I really don't know what this means.

Just for clarity, I should probably point out that I don't think that a religion-free upbringing is "nothingness"... just a different way of doing things. We're all surrounded by our cultures, even if they're so ubiquitous that we don't notice them.