Race and Religion

[Vinayaka]

What would it mean to be raised in cultural "nothingness"? I really don't know what this means.

Just for clarity, I should probably point out that I don't think that a religion-free upbringing is "nothingness"... just a different way of doing things. We're all surrounded by our cultures, even if they're so ubiquitous that we don't notice them.

I don't know. I just couldn't think of another way to describe it. A mish-mash? Dad was agnostic/atheist, but never ever discussed it. Definitely no church. Very rural, and I still have bits of that. Mom liked nature. No philosophical books in the house. We were taught by example mostly some very basic human values like honesty, and co-operation with neighbours. I played baseball and hockey. There may have been some 'culture' there. No music in the house. Diet was meat and potatoes, and I've obviously changed that. Bloodline was English/Scots, as was the food, I guess. No haggis thank god for that.

So you tell me what that's called?

 

[sunni56]

Certainly any adult who puts his or her children in a private religious school would beg to differ. Isn't that why people put there kids in private schools?

No; they put their children on private schools so that their child can have a religious upbringing. That does not in any way mean that when the child becomes an adult, they can no longer think for themselves.

 

[Vinayaka]

religious upbringing. T

- which equals 'indoctrination' or whatever you want to call it. As Penguin pointed out, in general Muslims become Muslims, etc.

 

[sunni56]

Actually, I was correcting your misinterpretation of what I said.


The "verifiability" of a factual claim that can't be verified until we're dead is rather irrelevant to the living. In the here-and-now, unless you've got some evidence in your back pocket that you're keeping to yourself, both religion and issues like gun control are a matter of opinion.

That's just totally false. An opinion on gun control is just that; an opinion. Believing in a religious doctrine means you have a conviction that certain things exist or certain events will happen. There's a massive difference between the two concepts, regardless of whether or not you acknowledge it.

 

[sunni56]

- which equals 'indoctrination' or whatever you want to call it. As Penguin pointed out, in general Muslims become Muslims, etc.

I don't know what you're talking about to be honest, are you seriously claiming that a 40 year old Muslim is a Muslim because he went to a Muslim school at the age of 5? Do you have any evidence to suggest that?

 

[Vinayaka]

Ooops ... this was supposed to be about race and religion... kinda went off topic ... I shall cease and desist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know. I just couldn't think of another way to describe it. A mish-mash? Dad was agnostic/atheist, but never ever discussed it. Definitely no church. Very rural, and I still have bits of that. Mom liked nature. No philosophical books in the house. We were taught by example mostly some very basic human values like honesty, and co-operation with neighbours. I played baseball and hockey. There may have been some 'culture' there. No music in the house. Diet was meat and potatoes, and I've obviously changed that. Bloodline was English/Scots, as was the food, I guess. No haggis thank god for that.

So you tell me what that's called?

Basically my upbringing?

I grew up in the city, not the country, but other than that it sounds like we had pretty similar experiences. My Dad was an atheist, but I didn't know that until he died (which happened in my late 20s, and by that time I had pretty much formed my own religious beliefs anyhow). My Mom was nominally Baptist, but would only tend to go to church for a few weeks every few years before drifting away from it again, and my parents generally didn't try to push my sister or me in any particular direction in terms of religion.

Looking back, I don't think of my upbringing as "cultural nothingness". It didn't have much religion, sure, but all in all, I'd say that the culture I experienced in my formative years was very real and full.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's just totally false. An opinion on gun control is just that; an opinion. Believing in a religious doctrine means you have a conviction that certain things exist or certain events will happen. There's a massive difference between the two concepts, regardless of whether or not you acknowledge it.

What's a conviction but a strong opinion?

 

[Titanic]

that is one among many reason's why i am not a christian anymore.

 

[BruceDLimber]

>I often wonder how race (racism) plays a part in the formation of congregations, acceptance of others, and more.

The Baha'i Faith has a wonderful history in this respect!

Not only does it condemn all forms of racism, but it's historically held many Race Unity Festivals to celebrate the oneness of humanity!

And of course, statistically the rate of so-called "interracial" marriages in the Baha'i Faith far, FAR exceeds the norm!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Vinayaka]

And of course, statistically the rate of so-called "interracial" marriages in the Baha'i Faith far, FAR exceeds the norm!

Curious, I searched for stats or some valid research on this on this, but couldn't find any. Could you perhaps point me to some?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Religion and race go hand in hand. Most holy scriptures cannot be learned truly unless in its native tongue. Hindus require you to adopt Indian culture and Muslims demand you adopt Arabic.
Some religions are so ethnically base you cannot be outside of the ethnicity to join which applies for most cases of Judaism. The culture and era a religion is born in dramatically affects the nature of that religion. This has become a primary issue with people seeking faiths outside of their native one. So many religions are outside of the frameworks of a foreign society it makes it disheartening to join. But this is where syncretism and free theology come into play.
Without such a mindset adhering to any religion is impossible. ALL religions have had moments of synchronization. Look at how Indonesians treat Islam, Nipponese Buddhism, Western Hinduism, and African Christianity.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Curious, I searched for stats or some valid research on this on this, but couldn't find any. Could you perhaps point me to some?

Sorry, but I know of none offhand.

But simply become familiar with the Baha'is and the Baha'i community, and you'll quickly start running into so-called "mixed marriages," many of them interracial!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Vinayaka]

Sorry, but I know of none offhand.

But simply become familiar with the Baha'is and the Baha'i community, and you'll quickly start running into so-called "mixed marriages," many of them interracial!

Peace,

Bruce

I believe it, but it very well may have to do that the Bahai congregation starts out as a mixed congregation. That in itself would lead to more mixed marriages. As an example, I bet there are more mixed marriages in Toronto, a very multicultural city, than there are in Riyadh, a less multicultural city.

 

[Maya3]

Sterling,

Hindus require you to adopt Indian culture

That is not true at all.


Vinyaka,

I think this is a great topic. It is important to look at this to see how we can all be more inclusive.
The Ashram I go to is becoming a little more diverse, but it is still mostly Caucasian.
The temple I go to I think is more mixed, I'm going tonight, I'm going to make a note of how mixed we are.
I think though that the temple is unusual because it is mostly non Indian and still not an ISCKON temple.

Maya

 

[Sha'irullah]

Sterling,


That is not true at all.

Yet so many on this forum require that a Hindu have an Indian name and have a guru who most likely is absent for a westerner.
I gave known plenty of Hindus and although it is not mandated anywhere Hindus expect you to adopt Indian culture by default.
Just dig through the Dharmic archive a nit and you will see.

I do not understand why Hindus of Indian descent get culture confused with religion but it happens a lot. I do understand what you are saying but out of my own experience I will have to say that Hindus expect a little too much from converts who are non Indian.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yet so many on this forum require that a Hindu have an Indian name and have a guru who most likely is absent for a westerner.
I gave known plenty of Hindus and although it is not mandated anywhere Hindus expect you to adopt Indian culture by default.
Just dig through the Dharmic archive a nit and you will see.

I do not understand why Hindus of Indian descent get culture confused with religion but it happens a lot. I do understand what you are saying but out of my own experience I will have to say that Hindus expect a little too much from converts who are non Indian.

I don't see the first part, but maybe I'm wrong. As far as I know, I'm the only born westerner with a Hindu name on here.

The reason 'culture' and 'religion' get so confused, as you put it, is that there really is a ton of overlap. For example, what food you eat is generally cultural, right? But it's also religious. Vegetarianism is a religious concept.

Or take music as another example. Something considered cultural by most standards, right? But then a ton of Indian music is bhajans, so then it becomes religious.

My temple got a cultural grant from the Canadian government for the part of it that is deemed cultural ..i.e. .. the basement. So sometimes the line between culture and religion gets very fuzzy indeed.

My Indian Hindu friends expect very little of me, but if your experience has been different, who am I to argue? It is your experience, after all.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sterling,

That is not true at all.

Vinyaka,

I think this is a great topic. It is important to look at this to see how we can all be more inclusive.
The Ashram I go to is becoming a little more diverse, but it is still mostly Caucasian.
The temple I go to I think is more mixed, I'm going tonight, I'm going to make a note of how mixed we are.
I think though that the temple is unusual because it is mostly non Indian and still not an ISCKON temple.

Maya

I've rarely been to any temples that have many Caucasians. The Ganesha temple in Salt Lake City was one that seemed to have more than normal. No real guesses to why though, unless they were former Mormons looking elsewhere.

But the real question for me is: What role does racism (I mean Caucasians about Indians here) play in regard to why some Caucasians really hesitate to go more often to Indian run temples? Is there a sense of discomfort being the only Caucasian amongst 100 people? Of course, that's not really racism, but just an uncomfortable feeling due to an unfamiliar context like being lost in a strange city. I mean I felt uncomfortable in educational strategy sessions being the only male sometimes.

You're in a better position that I am to observe this. or ask, or discuss. In the end, I would have a goal, if it were true, to somehow be more inclusive of the Caucasians who show up and feel that way.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I don't see the first part, but maybe I'm wrong. As far as I know, I'm the only born westerner with a Hindu name on here.

The reason 'culture' and 'religion' get so confused, as you put it, is that there really is a ton of overlap. For example, what food you eat is generally cultural, right? But it's also religious. Vegetarianism is a religious concept.

Or take music as another example. Something considered cultural by most standards, right? But then a ton of Indian music is bhajans, so then it becomes religious.

My temple got a cultural grant from the Canadian government for the part of it that is deemed cultural ..i.e. .. the basement. So sometimes the line between culture and religion gets very fuzzy indeed.

My Indian Hindu friends expect very little of me, but if your experience has been different, who am I to argue? It is your experience, after all.

Despite Sanatana Dharma's lovely theology and beautiful mysticism it is imposing to tackle because of its strong cultural ties. I have known Hindus who believe whites cannot be Hindu . Some of the biases I notice from Hindus is unscriptural and just personal prejudice often.
I just wish that Indian born Hindus could be more open about their religion as they seem fearful of allowing converts in. Proselytization is just not very common in Hindu communities and i live near 2.
I do not believe that Indians or Hindus for that matter are racist I just believe they think that a American cannot be a serious Hindu much like Julia Roberts and the religion becomes a gimmick.

 

[Vinayaka]

Despite Sanatana Dharma's lovely theology and beautiful mysticism it is imposing to tackle because of its strong cultural ties. I have known Hindus who believe whites cannot be Hindu . Some of the biases I notice from Hindus is unscriptural and just personal prejudice often.
I just wish that Indian born Hindus could be more open about their religion as they seem fearful of allowing converts in. Proselytization is just not very common in Hindu communities and i live near 2.
I do not believe that Indians or Hindus for that matter are racist I just believe they think that a American cannot be a serious Hindu much like Julia Roberts and the religion becomes a gimmick.

Where do you live that our experiences have been so different? Seriously, as I said before, I just have never had such experiences, (one exception) and I'm Caucasian. Now this includes 40 years of practice, and probably close to 100 Hindu temples, both India, and here. I've always felt very welcomed, even to the point of getting the royal treatment to be embarrassing.

So either I'm lying, you're lying, or we live in very different places where there the Indian Hindu attitude towards whites is very different, which could very well be.

As for Julia, well ... when you celebrate your becoming a 'Hindu' by telling everyone you're celebrating by going out for a steak, a lot of eyes rolled, not just Hindu eyes, either.

Regarding not proseltysing, Hindus have never proseltysed (other than ISKCON), so that shouldn't be at all surprising.