Race and Religion

[Maya3]

Yet so many on this forum require that a Hindu have an Indian name and have a guru who most likely is absent for a westerner.

Nope, I don't have an Indian name, and my guru is not absent.

I gave known plenty of Hindus and although it is not mandated anywhere Hindus expect you to adopt Indian culture by default.
Just dig through the Dharmic archive a nit and you will see.

No one has made me embrace Indian culture at all.

Despite Sanatana Dharma's lovely theology and beautiful mysticism it is imposing to tackle because of its strong cultural ties. I have known Hindus who believe whites cannot be Hindu . Some of the biases I notice from Hindus is unscriptural and just personal prejudice often.
I just wish that Indian born Hindus could be more open about their religion as they seem fearful of allowing converts in. Proselytization is just not very common in Hindu communities and i live near 2.
I do not believe that Indians or Hindus for that matter are racist I just believe they think that a American cannot be a serious Hindu much like Julia Roberts and the religion becomes a gimmick.

Some of this fear may be because so many missionaries have tried to convert Hindus by talking theology and trying to seem knowledgeable about Hinduism while having a secret agenda to proselytize.

No we don't proselytize, it's rude. People have the right to their own beliefs.
Whatever religion you believe in is fine.

I don't know who you are thinking of. Why should Americans not be able to be Hindu?
There are many, many Americans who are.
We are not all Indian at all.

Vinayaka,

I've rarely been to any temples that have many Caucasians. The Ganesha temple in Salt Lake City was one that seemed to have more than normal. No real guesses to why though, unless they were former Mormons looking elsewhere.

But the real question for me is: What role does racism (I mean Caucasians about Indians here) play in regard to why some Caucasians really hesitate to go more often to Indian run temples? Is there a sense of discomfort being the only Caucasian amongst 100 people? Of course, that's not really racism, but just an uncomfortable feeling due to an unfamiliar context like being lost in a strange city. I mean I felt uncomfortable in educational strategy sessions being the only male sometimes.

You're in a better position that I am to observe this. or ask, or discuss. In the end, I would have a goal, if it were true, to somehow be more inclusive of the Caucasians who show up and feel that way.

I can understand about feeling a little left out at a temple with mostly Indians. It's not that I think that people would be racist. But I feel a little self conscious, and afraid that people wouldn't think I'm serious and think I'm just there cause I'm curious. Not that there would be anything wrong with it.
At the beginning I didn't know what to do in a temple either, and I was nervous that I'd do something wrong. My ashram is much more focused on meditation and chanting than temple worship, even in our temple we don't have pujas, just chanting so I was not sure of what to do.

Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

I can understand about feeling a little left out at a temple with mostly Indians. It's not that I think that people would be racist. But I feel a little self conscious, and afraid that people wouldn't think I'm serious and think I'm just there cause I'm curious. Not that there would be anything wrong with it.

Maya

So what would have helped? Let's take the Flushing temple. Would it have helped if you would have had a friendly Indian guide to show you around, answer a few questions, etc.? Ironically, I'm one of the people here who does that, but I'm not Indian.

And again, we both know that there are some very valid reasons for being cautious, from the Indian side, that is. Fear of missionaries is just one angle.

 

[Maya3]

So what would have helped? Let's take the Flushing temple. Would it have helped if you would have had a friendly Indian guide to show you around, answer a few questions, etc.? Ironically, I'm one of the people here who does that, but I'm not Indian.

And again, we both know that there are some very valid reasons for being cautious, from the Indian side, that is. Fear of missionaries is just one angle.

Yes it would have helped. Actually the Flushing Ganesha temple was the first one I visited.
I remember that the first thing someone said to me was: "Got to take of your shoes!!" ...and pointed to a place where people did. We knew that we had to, but it was clear that since we were white he didn't think we did, and it didn't feel too welcoming.

This was before the temple renovations there though, and now there is a more obvious place to put your shoes if I remember right. It's been a while since I was there.
But yes it would help if there was a welcoming person to show you around, especially at such a large temple as the Flushing temple.

Temples can be a little lonely, each person comes in and sits down quietly and then you leave after the puja.
At least at the temple where I go now, people stand around and chit chat a little after prasad but not much. And I'm usually shy to introduce myself.

Tonight, there were a lot more Indians than usual at the temple, I think there were more Indians tonight then non Indians.

Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

I've had to tell Caucasian people to take their shoes off too, but it's rare. But then Caucasian people at our temple are rare.

Yes, I wish there were more guides. It's just informal at ours, and many others.

I never ever feel lonely. I go to see God, and Ganesha is always just right there. But I can understand if someone might.

At your temple tonight when it was say 50-50, do the two 'sides' mix much, or do they sort of stay within their own group?

 

[Maya3]

I've had to tell Caucasian people to take their shoes off too, but it's rare. But then Caucasian people at our temple are rare.

Yes, I wish there were more guides. It's just informal at ours, and many others.

I never ever feel lonely. I go to see God, and Ganesha is always just right there. But I can understand if someone might.

At your temple tonight when it was say 50-50, do the two 'sides' mix much, or do they sort of stay within their own group?

We all mix, it's a very small temple, and everyone sits together.

Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

We all mix, it's a very small temple, and everyone sits together.

Maya

Good to know. Here it would be the same (if there were more Caucasians) except for the general men on right, women on left. Even that is quite slack, for lack of a better word.

 

[Treks]

But the real question for me is: What role does racism (I mean Caucasians about Indians here) play in regard to why some Caucasians really hesitate to go more often to Indian run temples? Is there a sense of discomfort being the only Caucasian amongst 100 people? Of course, that's not really racism, but just an uncomfortable feeling due to an unfamiliar context like being lost in a strange city. I mean I felt uncomfortable in educational strategy sessions being the only male sometimes.

I don't know about anyone else but it's always uncomfortable for me to go to Gurdwara. Mostly I am just left alone (ignored?). The language barrier is a real problem. Even when I join a class it's in Punjabi and awkward when they have to pause to summarise for me what they're talking about, which is embarrasing. The IRL spiritual lonliness is almost paralysing. My observation is that Indians (and I am generalising here) are very community-minded because that's just what they do and they've never had a need or reason to 'bring others into the fold' so they don't tend to seek out newbies in the Gurdwara to make sure they're ok, make sure you're included, go up to you and ask how your week was, or follow up with you if you stop attending. I think they expect you to know you're welcome and to just make the effort to join in to conversations and make friends and stuff. That's fine but for someone like me who is tragically shy I'm never going to get anywhere. And also, it takes a lot of courage to just walk into a group of people doing something, speaking a different language, and try to fit in. You're not sure if you're intruding or if you're welcome and it's really awkward when everyone laughs and you're just kinda smiling hoping to hell they're not making jokes about you.

I don't think it's Caucasian about Indians "racism"... but a cautiousness on the Caucasian's part maybe?

 

[Treks]

except for the general men on right, women on left.

As an amusing point of interest, two of the three Gurdwaras in my city have women on the right and men on the left.

 

[Vinayaka]

As an amusing point of interest, two of the three Gurdwaras in my city have women on the right and men on the left.

Yes, in Hinduism, it is generally reversed, North India to South India, as well. So North Indian style temples are like the Gurdwaras.

 

[bp789]

Yes, in Hinduism, it is generally reversed, North India to South India, as well. So North Indian style temples are like the Gurdwaras.

Is that really a North and South Indian difference? The only gender segregated Hindu temples that I've been to are Swaminarayan temples. The one I go to has men on the right and women on the left, but in a different city it's the other way around. I assumed it was just something they decided arbitrarily. Of course I live in the US, and I haven't visited a temple in India in years, so that might be it.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram vinayaka ji

I don't see the first part, but maybe I'm wrong. As far as I know, I'm the only born westerner with a Hindu name on here.

vaisnavas dont count then

The reason 'culture' and 'religion' get so confused, as you put it, is that there really is a ton of overlap. For example, what food you eat is generally cultural, right? But it's also religious. Vegetarianism is a religious concept.

and of course please bear in mind that we eat only offered food and the deitys like a nice subji and rice ..., we offer more western style cakes and sweets but in general a more indian diet in the main (because it is more ballanced and less pre prepaired , more healthy .... )

Or take music as another example. Something considered cultural by most standards, right? But then a ton of Indian music is bhajans, so then it becomes religious.

I listen to bhajans , but not mainstreem indian comercial music just as I dont listen to western mainstreem comercial stuff .....


sometimes I think that the term cultural is just a title put on from outside

there is religious culture , vedic culture and secular culture .....of course at times the will overlap a little , .... the world is a confusing place that is why I need to focus on god

 

[Vinayaka]

Is that really a North and South Indian difference? The only gender segregated Hindu temples that I've been to are Swaminarayan temples. The one I go to has men on the right and women on the left, but in a different city it's the other way around. I assumed it was just something they decided arbitrarily. Of course I live in the US, and I haven't visited a temple in India in years, so that might be it.

I'm actually not sure, just an educated guess based on a very small sample size. I've also seen the idea get more relaxed over time here in the west in the last 35 years or so. Of course, many temples don't even have much congregational style worship at all. My Indian experience was the south, and generally everyone was packed in like sardines.

 

[goodhunter819]

Effectively monotheist or spiritual faiths usually have less of a racial problem there are plenty of black people in churches however they more targeted as hypocritical, the whole teaching of the god with no colour is a rise to equality within many of the places of worship and religion. I do think it is strange reading that white people have been known not to go to a Hindu temple because its too Indian since Hinduism is native to India, you would expect to see Indian icons, Indian symbols, Indian rituals, Indian images, for example many people I know of are interested in the Indigenous Mexican Indian religions, speaking for myself I like the history of the Pueblo Anasazi they are one of the first nations, (indulge me) I have a picture of an Aztec warrior priest cast, a young white girl and her fella a friend of mine came round to visit me, on see the warrior priest's picture she kind of freaked, it is was not what she expected to see when it came to the Indian thing of Mexican Indians, though it was a negative, like the early pictures of Geronimo or Ten Bears, it was great to see her reaction though I did not place it there on purpose, I think when following a religious that is not native to the west one should be prepared to expect non western or non white rituals that would seem a little excluding or even religion that have lesser percentage of whites within, it becomes a matter of dedication and practice to eventually gain the approving eyes, for me there is no issue I am not Hindu, were I to go to a church it would be my social religious standing that would make the difference and give me legitimate speakers approval, after all only a priest or minister can lead the celebration of mass or lead a sermon , saying that I chose to revert to the life of a Brave, I would expect a certain practice and different levels of eagerness of acceptance, not sure there are solutions to change that criteria of non white faiths, I think as I said one would have to dedicate their faith to resignation, it is things like religious ignorance the causes certain level of dislike, such as the image of Lakshmi the goddess on female underwear causing an outcry, perverting the image of religious belief has for me been an issue of insult, I repeat myself again on that point, a need to know knowledge is crucial.

( Old pic of a Aztec warrior priest, Indian Indigenous to the west)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is a nice round subject to bring up. I'm African American. I am mixed; and, my family (outer family) identifies with that name. Three years ago I became Roman Catholic. So, a year later or so, I'm just walking from the Social Security building and one other African American said hello. So, I did likewise, and we started talking. Then he asks what church do you go to. I told him Catholic.

He goes "so you turned white on us, have you?" Basically, I went outside of my African American roots (Predominately baptist, and non-denominational if you can get away with that nowadays) and decided to join a "white man's religion."

I guess I understand what he meant, because when someone African American tells me he or she is Catholic, I am surprised.

Another experience is less blunt. I figured all Southern Baptist are African Americans (that's how I knew it from childhood up) I was invited into Southern Baptist Church by two elder Caucasians, and I accepted the invite. There were no African Americans in the Church. It was definitely Southern Baptist; but, it was another racial stereotype I fell into.

At funerals, my family would give dirty looks or gossip about anyone who is Caucasian attending the funeral--obviously, they say, someone married into the family.

Racism is everywhere. I mean, someone was perturbed one time when I told them I had practiced Buddhism. "I didn't know Black people practiced Buddhism" he said honestly.

I find most influences or stereotypes are lack of knowledge and/or experience being part of the culture/religion. Age also has a high influence of what race is "accepted." My neighbor missed his church van. I asked him if he wanted to go to church with another neighbor in front of us. He tells me (he's in his 70s), "that's a negro church." I'm about thirty five years shy of him; do, using that term in everyday language is pretty foreign to me.

A lot of religions associated wit "Asians" apparently, are very culture center. Some Buddhist temples are very humble but there is a barrier if you do not know the language and/or culture of which ever temple you go to.

The Santeria shop I went to near my home, the owner's husband, said that many Caucasians want to be part of the Satanteria faith. They highly discourage that (not out right). He said as long as I'm African American or Spanish (anywhere) then I'm fine.

In some ways I can see why people are racist. In other ways, it just escapes me.

This is a hot topic, but I'm curious. I often wonder how race (racism) plays a part in the formation of congregations, acceptance of others, and more. I think it's more prevalent than most of us would like to believe, as it's almost a hidden, or forbidden topic, due to political correctness.

I think all faiths, whether they want to admit it or not, are affected. Sometimes language might be the basis for segregation, but that one could just as easily be veiled race, and nobody wants to admit it, let alone discuss it, given the taboo,

Examples ... In Chistianity, in the South, are there still all-African American or 95% African American congregations? (I honestly don't know) What happens when a Caucasian enters? Is he made to feel welcome, or will he/she not even go because of the make-up of the congregation? (Like go once and not go back?)

In my city there are several ethnic Christian churches, like a Korean one, for instance. Is this totally language based, or are there deeper truths to it?

In my faith (Hinduism) I've seen it go both ways. I am a very tiny minority (Caucasian) in a predominantly Indian religion. I've been obviously discriminated against just twice in 40 years, but I still get stares occasionally, but that may well just be because it IS unusual. I've also seen Caucasians avoid going to Indian Hindu temples because they're too 'Indian'. I've had people say it to me.

It's also a factor in interfaith discussions. For example, if I am invited to speak at a college on behalf of Hinduism, my skin colour makes me somehow less legitimate to speak.

So I'd like to hear other peoples' experiences or thoughts, and I'd like to think we can put this 'taboo' subject out in the open in such a tolerant place as this forum. The motive of course is to help rid all religion of racism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In India I got really nasty treatment in some Muslim owned stores for being Hindu, but that wasn't tied to race, as far as I know. It could have been though.

That is religious intolerance and not racism.

Just to throw this out there... would you (or would you not) consider restricting a tradition to a certain ethnicity/bloodline/race to be racist?

Hindus would be surprised at a Muslim outside India showing interest in Hinduism. I think they are incapable of understanding Hinduism. I do not think there are many Muslims interested in Buddhism. It is not so among Christians. Muslims are scripturally and culturally bound to their one God and one messenger. They can't progress beyond it.

I was very shocked and disturbed tbh. It is very explicit in Islamic text that Jesus Christ was very white, as white as the Europeans in fact, not the Middle-Eastern type white like Muhammad was.

Is it so mentioned in Qur'an or in a Hadith? You mean he was not Yehoshua ben Yusuf but of a Roman Soldier? Was he white or as some say the 'man in white'?

Abdullah bin 'Amr narrated that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said ".. then Allah will send or He (the Prophet) said will bring down rain which will be like men's semen, out of which the bodies of the (dead) people will grow. Then the trumpet will be blown another time and they (dead people) will be resurrected and be looking around."
Return of Jesus

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

This is a hot topic, but I'm curious. I often wonder how race (racism) plays a part in the formation of congregations, acceptance of others, and more. I think it's more prevalent than most of us would like to believe, as it's almost a hidden, or forbidden topic, due to political correctness.

I think all faiths, whether they want to admit it or not, are affected. Sometimes language might be the basis for segregation, but that one could just as easily be veiled race, and nobody wants to admit it, let alone discuss it, given the taboo,

Examples ... In Chistianity, in the South, are there still all-African American or 95% African American congregations? (I honestly don't know) What happens when a Caucasian enters? Is he made to feel welcome, or will he/she not even go because of the make-up of the congregation? (Like go once and not go back?)

In my city there are several ethnic Christian churches, like a Korean one, for instance. Is this totally language based, or are there deeper truths to it?

In my faith (Hinduism) I've seen it go both ways. I am a very tiny minority (Caucasian) in a predominantly Indian religion. I've been obviously discriminated against just twice in 40 years, but I still get stares occasionally, but that may well just be because it IS unusual. I've also seen Caucasians avoid going to Indian Hindu temples because they're too 'Indian'. I've had people say it to me.

It's also a factor in interfaith discussions. For example, if I am invited to speak at a college on behalf of Hinduism, my skin colour makes me somehow less legitimate to speak.

So I'd like to hear other peoples' experiences or thoughts, and I'd like to think we can put this 'taboo' subject out in the open in such a tolerant place as this forum. The motive of course is to help rid all religion of racism.

You have to understand why POC get suspicious about including white people in their faiths. I don't really blame south Asians for staring at you when you go to Hindu temples. There are white people who culturally appropriate and are disrespectful to other faiths esp Hinduism because of all the new age, modern hippie bs. "Oh I was Hindu for 2 months" How can you be Hindu for 2 months!?
It also makes me uncomfortable when white people are interested in practising voodoo or being rasta as those faiths developed out of oppression and the African diaspora, why would a white person be interested in being a part of that?
White people have a history of taking what is sacred to other cultures and turning it into a trend and even hypersexualising it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I've had some issues. Catholicism where I live is a mostly white thing, and there's been issues with that.

Besides Catholicism, I'm very familiar with the racism and even full-blown neo-Nazism that's rampant throughout aspects of the Left-Hand Path. Of course, most Western LHP practitioners are white people. There's not a lot of ethnic diversity in it. That doesn't bother me as most of the paths I'm drawn towards (such as Germanic Heathenry) are made up of mostly white people, but the bigotry is retarded.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel like a bit of an outcast in Hinduism. You would think that India is diverse enough not to have that issue.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It also makes me uncomfortable when white people are interested in practising voodoo or being rasta as those faiths developed out of oppression and the African diaspora, why would a white person be interested in being a part of that?

Well, it's like why are some non-white people interested in European religions? Should European descended people be made uncomfortable about that?

White people have a history of taking what is sacred to other cultures and turning it into a trend and even hypersexualising it.

Even if some people have done that, why should a person be viewed with suspicion simply due to the color of their skin? As long as they aren't taking it out of context themselves, why should there be a problem?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Not only does it condemn all forms of racism, but it's historically held many Race Unity Festivals to celebrate the oneness of humanity!

Yes, they are good at publicity, UN and all. All for Bahaullah. Same with Christians. Very good at liberty, peace, human rights, religious freedom, etc. All for Jesus.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not believe that Indians or Hindus for that matter are racist I just believe they think that a American cannot be a serious Hindu much like Julia Roberts and the religion becomes a gimmick.

You are right. That irks us more. No problem if you are a Christian or Muslim, but don't be a Hindu and a fake.