Race riots in England

[muhammad_isa]

..bit desperate to bring up a medaeval punishment that hasn’t been used for a very long time..

..not really.
You have to understand that the UK has evolved to what it is today from its history.

..before oil was discovered in the Middle East in the 20th. century, nobody here gave a hoot what happened
over there in that relative "backwater".
i.e. the only riches they had was their religion

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why don't you believe that?

Is it in the Qur'an? No.

Almighty God did not write 10's of thousands of hadith, now did he.

 

[Kathryn]

Is it in the Qur'an? No.

Almighty God did not write 10's of thousands of hadith, now did he.

I don't know much about the Quran or its history.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't know much about the Quran or its history.

Well, Muslims believe that the Qur'an was dictated to Muhammad by Angel Gabriel,
and it is recited daily in worship 5 times a day.
It was revealed over several years.

Hadith, on the other hand, are believed to be written by pious Muslims over a few centuries,
and are graded as 'sound' and 'weak' transmissions.

Some Muslims hold 'sound' hadiths as undoubtably correct, and others refute some,
while accepting others.

Hope that helps.

 

[England my lionheart]

..not really.
You have to understand that the UK has evolved to what it is today from its history.

I do,we have come a long way and our history has taught us many lessons.

..before oil was discovered in the Middle East in the 20th. century, nobody here gave a hoot what happened
over there in that relative "backwater".
i.e. the only riches they had was their religion

Good point,nobody gave a hoot until they came here with their baggage.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Look there is a huge difference between legal and illegal immigrants. At' least with the legal ones, we know who is in our country and maybe even why.

There really isn’t. The illegal ones are every bit as human as the legal ones, and in my book that means regarding them as somehow less than human, is an utterly reprehensible perspective.

 

[Kathryn]

There really isn’t. The illegal ones are every bit as human as the legal ones, and in my book that means regarding them as somehow less than human, is an utterly reprehensible perspective.

Which is why I am not regarding anyone as less than human.

 

[icehorse]

Where did you get 10 million from? The 2021 census has a total (not all immigrants) of 3.9 million Muslims in the UK (6.5% of the population). Statista has 4.13 million total (presumably more recently) but only 6.3% of the population.

Religion, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

The religion of usual residents and household religious composition in England and Wales, Census 2021 data.

www.ons.gov.uk

Topic: Islam in the UK

Find the most up-to-date statistics about Islam in the United Kingdom

www.statista.com

My experience, and, for that matter, what happened after the riots, when whole communities came out against the rioters and to help clear up, is that trouble is largely caused by the paranoia, misinformation (like that which kicked off the rioting in the first place), and 'othering' like you seem to be trying to do here.

No one's individual experience means much in discussions like this.

Ok, so let's say it's 4 million, not 10 million. I looked it up but already forgot where I got my stats. So, for the sake of discussion, 4 million. Some large percentage of that group want to install Sharia. Polls vary from let's say 20% to 50%. So to be conservative, let's say 20% of 4 million, that's 800,000 immigrants who want to undermine the foundations of the society that welcomed them.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[ratiocinator]

No one's individual experience means much in discussions like this.

Really depends on what we're talking about. According to some on the far right, I lived (and still do) in a "no-go area" for non-Muslims. My experience disproves that claim.

What happened after the riots is a matter of record. Whereas the rioters were often not from the immediate areas, those people who were, came out for a counter-protest and to clear up. This is important because it shows that people with actual experience are generally not the ones who are anti-Muslim.

Some large percentage of that group want to install Sharia. Polls vary from let's say 20% to 50%. So to be conservative, let's say 20% of 4 million, that's 800,000 immigrants who want to undermine the foundations of the society that welcomed them.

More stats without a source. Since there are nearly 70 million people in the UK (source), so 800,000 is just 1.1%, that's entirely insignificant in a democracy. Depending on how you ask the question, more than 50% of people in the UK support the death penality (source), so what? One of the points of having an open and democratic society is that people are actually allowed to disagree.

The extreme far right has far more support than Sharia and also undermines the foundations of our society. Trump in the US could undermine the entire basis of the western world. These threats are far more worrying and credible than the attitudes of British Muslims.

What could possibly go wrong?

Bigotry and intolerance? Riots?

 

[England my lionheart]

Today in the House of Commons Angela Rayner gave a speech about plans to legislate against Islamophobia,when asked to define islamophobia she had no answer,she knows the party line though because it’s in the party rulebook,they are an embarrassment.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Good point,nobody gave a hoot until they came here with their baggage.

So your solution? .. throw out all immigrants (Muslims) .. is that it?
Many people in the world are turning towards nationalism, as we can see from the polls.

It's blind protectionism, which can only increase violence and is certain to fail in
the long run.
But hey, I know the world is heading for serious trouble .. but thank God I can see further than
my nose, and I'm not part of the problem.

 

[icehorse]

Really depends on what we're talking about. According to some on the far right, I lived (and still do) in a "no-go area" for non-Muslims. My experience disproves that claim.

What happened after the riots is a matter of record. Whereas the rioters were often not from the immediate areas, those people who were, came out for a counter-protest and to clear up. This is important because it shows that people with actual experience are generally not the ones who are anti-Muslim.


More stats without a source. Since there are nearly 70 million people in the UK (source), so 800,000 is just 1.1%, that's entirely insignificant in a democracy. Depending on how you ask the question, more than 50% of people in the UK support the death penality (source), so what? One of the points of having an open and democratic society is that people are actually allowed to disagree.

The extreme far right has far more support than Sharia and also undermines the foundations of our society. Trump in the US could undermine the entire basis of the western world. These threats are far more worrying and credible than the attitudes of British Muslims.


Bigotry and intolerance? Riots?

I could interpret your response as being largely the same as "it's already not perfect, why not make it worse". But I suspect that's not your point?

As for bigotry and intolerance. Bigotry towards what exactly? I'm bigoted towards a lot of things: murderers, rapists, cheaters, and so on. So what exactly do you think a person critical of Islam is bigoted about?

 

[England my lionheart]

So your solution? .. throw out all immigrants (Muslims) .. is that it?

Not all immigrants are Muslim,so only the ones that shouldn’t be here whoever they are.

Many people in the world are turning towards nationalism, as we can see from the polls.

Yes they are,the reason being that people are fed up with the immigration problem,it’s a taboo subject and successive governments here and Europe fail to tackle it.

It's blind protectionism, which can only increase violence and is certain to fail in
the long run.

I disagree,it’s the right thing to do imo.

But hey, I know the world is heading for serious trouble .. but thank God I can see further than my nose, and I'm not part of the problem.

It’s a big crap sandwich,we all have to take a bite I’m afraid.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes they are,the reason being that people are fed up with the immigration problem,it’s a taboo subject and successive governments here and Europe fail to tackle it..

Perhaps we should have kept Liz Truss, and accepted becoming the poorest country in Europe.
That would have done the trick!

 

[ratiocinator]

I could interpret your response as being largely the same as "it's already not perfect, why not make it worse". But I suspect that's not your point?

As for bigotry and intolerance. Bigotry towards what exactly? I'm bigoted towards a lot of things: murderers, rapists, cheaters, and so on. So what exactly do you think a person critical of Islam is bigoted about?

Obviously things aren't perfect but I think prejudice (including against Muslims) is much more of a problem than Muslims in the UK, which I don't see as a problem at all, in itself.

By far the biggest problem the western democracies face is the rise of the popularist far right, which offers simplistic non-answers to complex problems, scapegoating of minorities, prejudice, (anthropogenic) climate change denial (which threatens the whole of human civilisation), and generally promotes hatred and division.

One of the characteristics of bigotry is unreasonableness. It's unreasonable to lump all Muslims in one group and characterise them all as a problem.

 

[ratiocinator]

This is encouraging...

More people now take an inclusive approach to who can call themselves British | National Centre for Social Research

Over the last decade, there has been a sharp fall in the proportion who believe someone’s family background is important to being ‘truly British’.

natcen.ac.uk

 

[icehorse]

Obviously things aren't perfect but I think prejudice (including against Muslims) is much more of a problem than Muslims in the UK, which I don't see as a problem at all, in itself.

By far the biggest problem the western democracies face is the rise of the popularist far right, which offers simplistic non-answers to complex problems, scapegoating of minorities, prejudice, (anthropogenic) climate change denial (which threatens the whole of human civilisation), and generally promotes hatred and division.

One of the characteristics of bigotry is unreasonableness. It's unreasonable to lump all Muslims in one group and characterise them all as a problem.

We agree on some points, but I think it's somewhat bigoted of you to call out popularism as a big problem. Doesn't that imply that most people are "bad", according to your standards?

What I see a lot is a sort of disingenuous strawmanning of people who are critical of Islam as being racists or bigots. Being a Muslim is a choice. Being an Islamist is a choice. Choices have consequences. And Islamists are the masters of division, make no mistake.

There are over 40,000 people on the UK's official terror watch list. And there are scores of Islamist groups in the UK known to be terrorist groups. (link below). Islamists tend to behave badly more than average, and all of this is not lost on the population.

Proscribed terrorist groups or organisations

 

[ratiocinator]

We agree on some points, but I think it's somewhat bigoted of you to call out popularism as a big problem. Doesn't that imply that most people are "bad", according to your standards?

Right wing popularism is a particular political position, not necessarily the most popular. Even if it was, or where it is, I'm perfectly prepared to give my reasoning, and, because it's a political movement, not a racial or religious group, I'm not trying to include people without reasons.

Right-wing populism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What I see a lot is a sort of disingenuous strawmanning of people who are critical of Islam as being racists or bigots. Being a Muslim is a choice. Being an Islamist is a choice. Choices have consequences. And Islamists are the masters of division, make no mistake.

Islamism is not the same as Islam. Not all Muslims think the same. Lumping them together as a threat or problem, is totally unjustified.

 

[icehorse]

Right wing popularism is a particular political position, not necessarily the most popular. Even if it was, or where it is, I'm perfectly prepared to give my reasoning, and, because it's a political movement, not a racial or religious group, I'm not trying to include people without reasons.

I consider myself to be a centrist. But often these days centrist positions are smeared by "progressives" as being "far right". So I think that inorder to have useful conversations, you have to be specific about individual issues, and avoid thought terminating cliches like "right wing popularism".

Islamism is not the same as Islam. Not all Muslims think the same. Lumping them together as a threat or problem, is totally unjustified.

Well I do not lump them all together. And I think that most people who are critical of Islam are not as ham-handed as you're painting them to be.

 

[ratiocinator]

I consider myself to be a centrist. But often these days centrist positions are smeared by "progressives" as being "far right". So I think that inorder to have useful conversations, you have to be specific about individual issues, and avoid thought terminating cliches like "right wing popularism".

The Wiki article I linked outlines the actual policies associated with the term "right wing popularism". The reasons I regard them as a serious problem is those policies and the fact that they present them as if they were going to solve any of the problems that people face. Blaming immigration is easy to say, but it just stokes division, and is patently untrue. The anti-environmentalism is terrifying.

As for being 'centrist', I think what has actually happened is that politics (certainly in the UK) has shifted to the right. In this year's general election, even the Labour Party ran on a basically right wing agenda, as you can see from Political Compass:

The Political Compass

The Political Compass: a 2-dimensional typology of political opinions

www.politicalcompass.org

I'm unashamedly left wing and libertarian - my score on that site puts me very close to the bottom left corner. No party in the UK really represents my views.

Well I do not lump them all together.

I can only go on what you've actually written here, and it seemed to be that you thought Muslim immigration was a problem in itself.