Rape?

[Cypress]

Sex is only a contract when one of the partners is a prostitute/callboy & does it for money.

 

[Magic Man]

So all of you don't believe in fraud in contracts either then? OK. I've got some land I'd like to sell you.

Hey, look! Watchmen deigned to provide us with his wisdom in the form of another one line comment! Oh, thank you, great Watchmen!

Now, if only you could take an extra couple of minutes away from your fancy schedule to say more than a stupid comment like this, we'd get somewhere.

Your assertion that this is the same as a contract is laughable. You alluded to possible legal definitions to support the idea that this is rape earlier, and yet here you are back again, giving us nothing more than drivel in the form of a sarcastic but nonsensical one-liner.

Bottom line is calling this rape is just stupid. Again if this is considered rape, then most people in the world are guilty of rape. Any chance you'd like to talk about this, or would you rather keep to your drive-bies that continue to make you feel superior and cool?

 

[Watchmen]

Hey, look! Watchmen deigned to provide us with his wisdom in the form of another one line comment! Oh, thank you, great Watchmen!

Now, if only you could take an extra couple of minutes away from your fancy schedule to say more than a stupid comment like this, we'd get somewhere.

Your assertion that this is the same as a contract is laughable. You alluded to possible legal definitions to support the idea that this is rape earlier, and yet here you are back again, giving us nothing more than drivel in the form of a sarcastic but nonsensical one-liner.

Bottom line is calling this rape is just stupid. Again if this is considered rape, then most people in the world are guilty of rape. Any chance you'd like to talk about this, or would you rather keep to your drive-bies that continue to make you feel superior and cool?

Do posts like yours pass as acceptable these days? I haven't been around lately.

 

[Watchmen]

Sex is only a contract when one of the partners is a prostitute/callboy & does it for money.

Fraud can exist in consenting to a contract or consenting to sex. Why is it OK in one instance, but not the other? Something to think about.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Fraud can exist in consenting to a contract or consenting to sex. Why is it OK in one instance, but not the other? Something to think about.

I see comparing fraud in sex to rape as equivalent to comparing fraud in business to armed robbery. None of them are "ok", but there are different degrees of being duped or victimized.

I just don't see this as comparable to rape.

 

[Watchmen]

I see comparing fraud in sex to rape as equivalent to comparing fraud in business to armed robbery. None of them are "ok", but there are different degrees of being duped or victimized.

I just don't see this as comparable to rape.

But what is "rape" other than the definition we apply to it? There is more to "rape" than the forceful, disgusting act most commonly associated with it. There is also statutory rape, for example. That too is "rape" even though it is consensual. In this case, we have rape by deception - it too is "rape" even though it is consensual - the point is the consent was obtained fraudulently.

 

[Mister Emu]

I find that something inside me views the lying to gain sexual consent with disgust... whether or not it meets the definition of rape I'm not sure...

I believe, though I could be mistaken, that agreements in other situations are considered void when one side's position is based on lies... I don't see any inherent issue with the idea that sexual consent could be considered void when consent is founded upon lies by one party.

 

[Cypress]

This case has nothing to do with rape but everything with racism.
Apparently some Israelian racist cannot accept that a Jewish woman & a Palestinian man share their bodies.

 

[Poisonshady313]

This case has nothing to do with rape but everything with racism.
Apparently some Israelian racist cannot accept that a Jewish woman & a Palestinian man share their bodies.

The only racism in this case comes from people like you who decide to make this all about race.

People who don't like Israel have a tendency to pain them in the most negative light in every situation. I'm willing to bet if this were a Jewish man and a Palestinian woman, you'd decide that Israelis are not only land grabbing occupiers, but rapists as well.


The simple fact is, there are some jurisdictions in this world that assert that consent given under false pretenses is not consent at all... and everyone agrees that sexual contact without consent is rape.

California, Michigan, Tennessee, and Alabama are examples of such places. Israel is as well.

 

[Revoltingest]

The simple fact is, there are some jurisdictions in this world that assert that consent given under false pretenses is not consent at all... and everyone agrees that sexual contact without consent is rape.

California, Michigan, Tennessee, and Alabama are examples of such places. Israel is as well.

Have any examples for Michigan? I'm not aware of anyone here being sentenced to long prison
terms for "rape" by deception. Were that true, most of the population would be in jail.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I see comparing fraud in sex to rape as equivalent to comparing fraud in business to armed robbery. None of them are "ok", but there are different degrees of being duped or victimized.

I just don't see this as comparable to rape.

fraud in sex and rape both fall under the category of non-consensual sex.

fraud in business and armed robbery both fall under the category of unlawful loss of assets.


Consider this... a girl might "consent" to having sex with a guy when she's drunk, or if she had been roofied... but in either situation, she is considered unable to consent, and therefore what might outwardly seem like consensual sex is actually rape. (There's a reason they call roofies the "date rape" drug)

Just because it isn't violent doesn't make it not rape. All that is necessary is a lack of consent.

 

[Revoltingest]

fraud in sex and rape both fall under the category of non-consensual sex.
fraud in business and armed robbery both fall under the category of unlawful loss of assets.
Consider this... a girl might "consent" to having sex with a guy when she's drunk, or if she had been roofied... but in either situation, she is considered unable to consent, and therefore what might outwardly seem like consensual sex is actually rape. (There's a reason they call roofies the "date rape" drug)
Just because it isn't violent doesn't make it not rape. All that is necessary is a lack of consent.

Physical assault, either by drugs or violence are a far cry from misrepresentation in my book. The law also treats them differently.
Theft by embezzlement isn't even considered a crime here, but if you walk into a store to steal even a dollar with a knife or gun,
you will be arrested & spend a long time in the pokey.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Have any examples for Michigan? I'm not aware of anyone here being sentenced to long prison
terms for "rape" by deception. Were that true, most of the population would be in jail.

No, I don't have any examples.

However:

If the Legislature wants to make sex through fraud qualify as rape, it should follow the lead of several other states -- including Alabama, California, Michigan, and Tennessee -- and change the law, the [Supreme] court [of Massachusetts] said.

Court rules sex through use of fraud is not rape - The Boston Globe


Also from that article,

"The message that the court sends today is . . . that a man's ability to obtain sex through fraud with regard to who he is is more important than a woman's fundamental right to control her own body," said Murphy. She added, "It is impossible -- as a matter of fact and law -- to consent to sex with the wrong person."


This relates to a case in Massachusetts wherein a man tricked his brother's girlfriend into having sex with him by impersonating his sibling in the middle of the night.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Physical assault, either by drugs or violence are a far cry from misrepresentation in my book. The law also treats them differently. Theft by embezzlement isn't even considered a crime here, but if you walk into a store to steal even a dollar with a knife or gun, you will be arrested & spend a long time in the pokey.

Ever consider that the fact they're treated differently is unfair?

Theft is theft. Rape is rape.

 

[Eliot Wild]

I'm no lawyer, but I do pretend to be one sometimes when trying to get laid. Funny, it hasn't really worked that much though. So, I've shied away from that fabrication in favor of World Champion Soccer Cup finalist or occassionally American Idol talent scout.

However, one of the things I had to commit to memory to pull off the charade of being a learned counselor, was that some agreements rise to the level of legal contracts and some others do not.

I suppose some relevant questions to consider before we try the defendant in both the criminal and civil courts:

1. Did he sign an affidavit or affirm through any other legal instrument that to the best of his knowledge and belief he was in fact Isreali?

2. Was he deposed by counsel for the opposition or otherwise examined through other legal testimony, and was the defendant fully advised of his rights and responsibilities as applicable under the common terms of said legal exchange and/or agreement?

3. Upon making alleged misrepresentations to the victim, was in fact the defendant's pants on fire?

In all seriousness, does anyone really want to live under the constraints and pressures of either a criminal or civil code that demands full discloser from all parties involved in consensual sexual exchanges?

If so, can I get some sort of legal relief from the Court whenever I find out after the fact that a previous partner had cosmetic surgery? Do any and all misrepresentations leave one open to criminal prosecution, even if, let's say, I just exaggerate a bit about my ability to perform?

If I am dissatisfied afterwards and the girl in question told me on multiple occassions that she was going to, "Rock my world," can I sue or have her brought up on charges?

Does everyone not see the ultimate danger in this sort of criminal prosecution? We thought STD's made us think twice about having sex . . . Hell, now I am not even sure if I should sleep with my girlfriend ever again since I did tell her more than once that I don't mind wearing my old Navy uniform for play, but that's a lie, the truth is those Navy Blues have a tendency to scuff the sensitive areas with nothing underneath but a thong.

 

[luvuyesua]

oh my god than I was raped!! my husband said he couldnt have kids and well, he could, but of course I was 19 and he 60, maybe he raped my naiveness.jjjajajajajajajjjajjaj. but what a beautiful rape.

but on a serious note the life that poles. and jew. have together can leave room for that injustice to be true in that part of the world.

 

[Revoltingest]

If the Legislature wants to make sex through fraud qualify as rape, it should follow the lead of several other states -- including Alabama, California, Michigan, and Tennessee -- and change the law, the [Supreme] court [of Massachusetts] said.

Also from that article,
"The message that the court sends today is . . . that a man's ability to obtain sex through fraud with regard to who he is is more important than a woman's fundamental right to control her own body," said Murphy. She added, "It is impossible -- as a matter of fact and law -- to consent to sex with the wrong person."

This relates to a case in Massachusetts wherein a man tricked his brother's girlfriend into having sex with him by impersonating his sibling in the middle of the night.

I don't share the view that fraud is equivalent to violence. But your example is interesting in that the crime is gender asymmetric - only men can commit rape by fraud, not women?

 

[Poisonshady313]

In all seriousness, does anyone really want to live under the constraints and pressures of either a criminal or civil code that demands full discloser from all parties involved in consensual sexual exchanges?

He didn't neglect to inform her that he was not Jewish... he told her he was Jewish. He didn't leave out a few details... he actively deceived her.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I don't share the view that fraud is equivalent to violence.

I didn't say anything about violence. Consent is consent. And sex without consent is rape.

But your example is interesting in that the crime is gender asymmetric - only men can commit rape by fraud, not women?

No. It was worded that way because she was speaking specifically about the case at hand, i.e. the man who tricked his brother's girlfriend into having sex with him.

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't say anything about violence. Consent is consent. And sex without consent is rape.

It's not so simple. To give consent as a result of deception is still to give consent.
It is wrong, but to call it "rape" is to trivialize the trauma of sexual assault.

No. It was worded that way because she was speaking specifically about the case at hand, i.e. the man who tricked his brother's girlfriend into having sex with him.

The language was more general than just that case.

".... a man's ability to obtain sex through fraud with regard to who he is is more important than a woman's fundamental right to control her own body..."