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Rape?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
First, THANK YOU for finally offering substance to a different opinion. :D.....a perspective like this is refreshing.

I almost didn't post, and I wrote a post about a hundred times but I was never satisfied so I resorted to a few studies to give some indication of some views or evidence which I hoped (I usually try to find studies that others can access but by that time I was too worn out) would have available copies somewhere.

Second, does a study like this address sexual fantasy of non-violent offenders as well?
Uh, yes and no. No, because whatever controls and tests they used were not enough, but yes because of the reason (hopefully) they didn't feel the need. The intro is a survey of four decades of "representative" literature such that the authors are able to test something pretty specific.

But perhaps some of that introduction might help clarify or at least provide context (and not just make things worse):
"Researchers and theorists have been emphasizing the role of deviant sexual fantasy in the etiology of sexual offending ever since Abel and Blanchard (1974) stressed its importance in the treatment of sexual deviation. This role has been and is still predominantly related to the acquisition and maintenance of deviant sexual interests via various conditioning and social learning processes (Laws and Marshall, 1990 and McGuire et al., 1965). Considering that deviant sexual interests have been shown to be a key risk factor in sexual offending (Thornton, 2002) as well as the strongest predictor of sexual recidivism (Hanson and Bussière, 1998 and Hanson and Morton-Bourgon, 2005), the assumption that sexual fantasies are an important factor in understanding sexual offending appears more than plausible.
However, it has been argued that deviant sexual fantasies can have a more direct influence on sexual offending. For example, many researchers propose that the recurrent use of deviant sexual fantasies can lead to the commission of a sexual offence in some offenders, whereby the individual becomes motivated to enact the imagery they have mentally simulated within their fantasies (Deu and Edelmann, 1997, MacCulloch et al., 1983, Ward and Hudson, 2000 and Wilson and Jones, 2008). Recent research has provided some support for this hypothesis. For instance, Beech, Fisher, and Ward (2005) found that, in a group of 14 sadistically-motivated sexual murderers, 79% reported ‘carrying out sexual fantasies’ as their main motivation for offending.
Alternatively, others assert that deviant fantasies act as ‘disinhibitors’ that desensitize an individual to deviant behavior. This lowers their internal inhibitions against engaging in such behavior and, therefore, increases the likelihood of offending (Gee, Devilly, & Ward, 2004). Indeed, based on official records and interview data, Proulx, Perreault, and Ouimet (1999) found that for extrafamilial child molesters, deviant fantasies were one of the most frequently reported immediate (12-h) disinhibitors.
Deviant sexual fantasy is, therefore, a factor worthy of both clinical and academic attention. However, as Hudson and Ward (2000) note, it is unlikely that deviant sexual fantasy alone will predict future offending in isolation from other factors related to the offender. Indeed, research has shown that sexual fantasies are interrelated with other key factors such as emotional states and sexual arousal. For example, Gee, Ward, and Eccleston (2003) qualitatively analyzed the interview transcripts of 24 sex offenders and found that sexual fantasies can be used to: (a) regulate affect, (b) enhance/induce sexual arousal, (c) cope, and (d) re-live an offense or simulate a future offense. Researchers also assert that sexual fantasy use is dependent upon the disposition and motivation of the sex offender (e.g., Langton and Marshall, 2001 and Ward et al., 1998). For example, Langton and Marshall explain that sexual sadistic rapists use deviant sexual fantasies for sexual pleasure, whereas sexual nonsadistic rapists use deviant fantasies as a way of compensating for their low masculine self-image and sexual inadequacy. Thus, given that deviant fantasies interrelate significantly with other factors associated with a sexual offender, it appears as though their role is not as straightforward as first thought. Thus, the current paper aims to describe and synthesize research and relevant theory related to deviant sexual fantasy and its various correlates. We begin with a detailed discussion on the definition of deviant sexual fantasy before moving on to discuss some of the main factors that are associated with sex offenders' fantasies. These include deviant sexual interest/arousal, affective states, personality, and behavior. We end with an overall summary and considerations for future research."

The reason I ask is because
....you are astute. Correlation is not causation, but the same people who teach this as a mantra often forget it in practice.

Do these studies also address the problem of women who rape, prison rape, and rape during war as well?

I cannot read studies about women who rape. I want to be able to as it is important but I am not able to do it.

Prison rape is thoroughly investigated and there is an enormous amount of support for...

contradicting theories. One big problem is that the main way to obtain information is from inmates who have various reasons give false reports in different ways, and guards. There is a fair amount of literature on prison guards, from who takes these jobs and why, to the toll it takes. Then there's the pressure that has been addressed more with police in general (i.e., the Serpico/thin blue line problem) but in a community where a guards life can frequently depend upon others guards who can just let lethal situations occur in a number of ways. So both sources are often problematic, and thus there is a lot of data and a lot of arguing over data and not a lot I can discern from it without losing all faith in humanity.

However, prison populations create unique social structures and dynamics (even fake ones: Stanford prison experiment) . And when you remove a gender in a species largely dominated by dyadic gender relations, put large numbers of people whose behavior is already deviant in some way (if they were guilty) with others of the same, it is hard to get conclusions. The prostitution culture in prisons is another area which is totally different except in that it deals with prisons and what is to some degree an emergent social structure that has men doing things they would not otherwise do, but nobody agrees why (how mutable is sexuality? how much is

War is a different matter. Not because the literature is much more clear here (it is, but one of the main theories I believe is wrong), but because long before I went to pursue an undergrad degree, I became interested (or worried) about what makes empathy "work" so that societies can function, and what doesn't. It's the only thing I've published on in a "journal". Evolutionary psychology and its "just so" stories/theories have ways of explaining why humans can be monsters for x evolutionary reasons, but in the end it is (I think) basic human nature to be empathetic to those one regards as people, but not basic human nature to think all humans are people. Historically, this was simply true in general. One tribe, whether Aztec or Achaean, had no problem slaughtering another, especially if they didn't speak a similar language. Roman "peace" (pax romana) was kept through the use of the sword.

It is only in more recent times that the widespread idea of "people are people" has been acknowledged, even if not practiced. But when you ask soldiers to go out and kill people, and these soldiers were raised to believe that killing is wrong, a fundamental psychological mechanism for being able to commit violent acts is to dehumanize the other. Humiliation, sadism, and all forms of cruelty can and do arise. I believe that soldiers raping has the same underlying psychological mechanisms that had men in Abu Ghraib stripped naked and photographed, and probably countless other acts of torture, humiliation, and cruelty in general that will never be reported.



Brownmillers book isn't as widely accepted as McKibbin and Shackelford believe
Personally, I have more problem with them citing Thornhill & Palmer.


there is a strange insistence that when it comes to male on female rape around the age of a sexual peak with men, that somehow rape becomes magically sexualized and has less to do with violence than it does among other rapes.
Crime in general is divided among genders. An evolutionary psychologist would say that this is because historically men did more fighting. They might throw in other arguments too (anything can be an "adaptive psychological trait" as long as you're making up the situations). But I do think that men in general are more easily prone to dehumanizing behaviors. This remains true even in abnormal social settings (e.g,. violence in male prisons vs. females).

Finally, the language used by Brownmiller does not represent all of feminism
Certainly. There are so many things about this paper I keep coming back to because of so much I have trouble thinking could be thought (even just author and title) yet I wonder what if anything is accurate: Feminist contributions to understanding woman abuse: Myths, controversies, & realities.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I almost didn't post, and I wrote a post about a hundred times but I was never satisfied so I resorted to a few studies to give some indication of some views or evidence which I hoped (I usually try to find studies that others can access but by that time I was too worn out) would have available copies somewhere.

Wow. Again, thank you.

Uh, yes and no. No, because whatever controls and tests they used were not enough, but yes because of the reason (hopefully) they didn't feel the need. The intro is a survey of four decades of "representative" literature such that the authors are able to test something pretty specific.

But perhaps some of that introduction might help clarify or at least provide context (and not just make things worse):
"Researchers and theorists have been emphasizing the role of deviant sexual fantasy in the etiology of sexual offending ever since Abel and Blanchard (1974) stressed its importance in the treatment of sexual deviation. This role has been and is still predominantly related to the acquisition and maintenance of deviant sexual interests via various conditioning and social learning processes (Laws and Marshall, 1990 and McGuire et al., 1965). Considering that deviant sexual interests have been shown to be a key risk factor in sexual offending (Thornton, 2002) as well as the strongest predictor of sexual recidivism (Hanson and Bussière, 1998 and Hanson and Morton-Bourgon, 2005), the assumption that sexual fantasies are an important factor in understanding sexual offending appears more than plausible.
However, it has been argued that deviant sexual fantasies can have a more direct influence on sexual offending. For example, many researchers propose that the recurrent use of deviant sexual fantasies can lead to the commission of a sexual offence in some offenders, whereby the individual becomes motivated to enact the imagery they have mentally simulated within their fantasies (Deu and Edelmann, 1997, MacCulloch et al., 1983, Ward and Hudson, 2000 and Wilson and Jones, 2008). Recent research has provided some support for this hypothesis. For instance, Beech, Fisher, and Ward (2005) found that, in a group of 14 sadistically-motivated sexual murderers, 79% reported ‘carrying out sexual fantasies’ as their main motivation for offending.

Hmmmm, we have fringe porn that shows violence toward other people. I've read studies that indicate that porn does not have the influence toward sexual violence that it might be assumed. However, granted that according to this perspective, it could be argued that porn itself does not give "cause" to the fantasy, but rather that the deviant fantasy could already be there.

Alternatively, others assert that deviant fantasies act as ‘disinhibitors’ that desensitize an individual to deviant behavior. This lowers their internal inhibitions against engaging in such behavior and, therefore, increases the likelihood of offending (Gee, Devilly, & Ward, 2004). Indeed, based on official records and interview data, Proulx, Perreault, and Ouimet (1999) found that for extrafamilial child molesters, deviant fantasies were one of the most frequently reported immediate (12-h) disinhibitors.

Hmmm....are we speaking about molestation of children with the intent of having a consensual relationship with them?

Response continued in next post...
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Deviant sexual fantasy is, therefore, a factor worthy of both clinical and academic attention. However, as Hudson and Ward (2000) note, it is unlikely that deviant sexual fantasy alone will predict future offending in isolation from other factors related to the offender. Indeed, research has shown that sexual fantasies are interrelated with other key factors such as emotional states and sexual arousal. For example, Gee, Ward, and Eccleston (2003) qualitatively analyzed the interview transcripts of 24 sex offenders and found that sexual fantasies can be used to: (a) regulate affect, (b) enhance/induce sexual arousal, (c) cope, and (d) re-live an offense or simulate a future offense. Researchers also assert that sexual fantasy use is dependent upon the disposition and motivation of the sex offender (e.g., Langton and Marshall, 2001 and Ward et al., 1998). For example, Langton and Marshall explain that sexual sadistic rapists use deviant sexual fantasies for sexual pleasure, whereas sexual nonsadistic rapists use deviant fantasies as a way of compensating for their low masculine self-image and sexual inadequacy. Thus, given that deviant fantasies interrelate significantly with other factors associated with a sexual offender, it appears as though their role is not as straightforward as first thought. Thus, the current paper aims to describe and synthesize research and relevant theory related to deviant sexual fantasy and its various correlates. We begin with a detailed discussion on the definition of deviant sexual fantasy before moving on to discuss some of the main factors that are associated with sex offenders' fantasies. These include deviant sexual interest/arousal, affective states, personality, and behavior. We end with an overall summary and considerations for future research."

THIS is comprehensive. Do you have a link to the study? Because I would really like to read it. The geek in me in regards to what drives sexual fantasy, response, and behavior has her interest piqued.

....you are astute. Correlation is not causation, but the same people who teach this as a mantra often forget it in practice.

True, but we ARE arguing about whether sexual urges are a causal factor, not correlative. I have been arguing that sexual urges have been ancillary and not primary motivators, and that rape itself is differentiated by consensual sex due to it's violent nature...not by a sexual nature.

I cannot read studies about women who rape. I want to be able to as it is important but I am not able to do it.

Bummer. I think it's hugely important.

Prison rape is thoroughly investigated and there is an enormous amount of support for...

contradicting theories. One big problem is that the main way to obtain information is from inmates who have various reasons give false reports in different ways, and guards. There is a fair amount of literature on prison guards, from who takes these jobs and why, to the toll it takes. Then there's the pressure that has been addressed more with police in general (i.e., the Serpico/thin blue line problem) but in a community where a guards life can frequently depend upon others guards who can just let lethal situations occur in a number of ways. So both sources are often problematic, and thus there is a lot of data and a lot of arguing over data and not a lot I can discern from it without losing all faith in humanity.

Granted, that's problematic. Is it safe to include the data obtained from studies of prison rape for the purpose of comparison to rape in general?

However, prison populations create unique social structures and dynamics (even fake ones: Stanford prison experiment) . And when you remove a gender in a species largely dominated by dyadic gender relations, put large numbers of people whose behavior is already deviant in some way (if they were guilty) with others of the same, it is hard to get conclusions. The prostitution culture in prisons is another area which is totally different except in that it deals with prisons and what is to some degree an emergent social structure that has men doing things they would not otherwise do, but nobody agrees why (how mutable is sexuality? how much is

War is a different matter. Not because the literature is much more clear here (it is, but one of the main theories I believe is wrong), but because long before I went to pursue an undergrad degree, I became interested (or worried) about what makes empathy "work" so that societies can function, and what doesn't. It's the only thing I've published on in a "journal". Evolutionary psychology and its "just so" stories/theories have ways of explaining why humans can be monsters for x evolutionary reasons, but in the end it is (I think) basic human nature to be empathetic to those one regards as people, but not basic human nature to think all humans are people. Historically, this was simply true in general. One tribe, whether Aztec or Achaean, had no problem slaughtering another, especially if they didn't speak a similar language. Roman "peace" (pax romana) was kept through the use of the sword.

I think this is highly relevant. We have "A" who attacks "B" because "A" has dehumanized "B" to a level worthy of elimination, pain, misery, neglect, etc.

Which leads to this....

It is only in more recent times that the widespread idea of "people are people" has been acknowledged, even if not practiced. But when you ask soldiers to go out and kill people, and these soldiers were raised to believe that killing is wrong, a fundamental psychological mechanism for being able to commit violent acts is to dehumanize the other. Humiliation, sadism, and all forms of cruelty can and do arise. I believe that soldiers raping has the same underlying psychological mechanisms that had men in Abu Ghraib stripped naked and photographed, and probably countless other acts of torture, humiliation, and cruelty in general that will never be reported.

Truth.

I think it's important to include the data and hypotheses from rape that occurs in prisons and in war because of the thread of familiarity in all.

Personally, I have more problem with them citing Thornhill & Palmer.

Meh, nobody's perfect. Que sera sera. :D

Crime in general is divided among genders. An evolutionary psychologist would say that this is because historically men did more fighting. They might throw in other arguments too (anything can be an "adaptive psychological trait" as long as you're making up the situations). But I do think that men in general are more easily prone to dehumanizing behaviors. This remains true even in abnormal social settings (e.g,. violence in male prisons vs. females).

That can be a springboard for a whole slew of discussions and debates at RF, but is it relevant to the debate here when we are looking at sexual urges as a causal factor in rape?

Certainly. There are so many things about this paper I keep coming back to because of so much I have trouble thinking could be thought (even just author and title) yet I wonder what if anything is accurate: Feminist contributions to understanding woman abuse: Myths, controversies, & realities.

Dang it, I suddenly got lost here. I need my morning cup of coffee. What's the relevance with this link?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
THIS is comprehensive. Do you have a link to the study?
I have access through it from my access to ScienceDirect. However, I will PM you about finding a way to get it to you.


True, but we ARE arguing about whether sexual urges are a causal factor, not correlative.
I simply meant that your question was an important one.


Bummer. I think it's hugely important.
I could not agree more. It is very important to me, but that's also very related to why I am not able to read about it even though I would like to be able to.
Granted, that's problematic. Is it safe to include the data obtained from studies of prison rape for the purpose of comparison to rape in general?

I don't think so. This is terrible, but it popped into my head. As a kid I loved the movie The Secret of NIMH. It was only years later (not that long ago) that I watched it again and heard "national institute of mental health". By that time I was very familiar with what NIMH was and it was quite a shock to realize that this was what the movie (indirectly, as the movie was based on the book) concerned. I also learned that it was related to an actual study of mice who were placed in an artificial environment that radically changed everything about the way mice behave. Mice are, of course, not humans and have a totally different method for maintaining social structures, but the potential for the human mind to shape its own reality is beyond that of any other animal. When a study can turn randomly assigned participants either into authoritarian abusive individuals or prisoners on the verge of open revolt (even though the entire experiment is a fake setting and a lot of props), I think that says a lot about the potential for particular environments to have specific dynamics. When you are already dealing with an abnormal population (as in those who have deviated from cultural and/or social norms), it is very difficult to generalize, and only possible to do so in particular ways.

I think this is highly relevant. We have "A" who attacks "B" because "A" has dehumanized "B" to a level worthy of elimination, pain, misery, neglect, etc.

I have found that for most of history it hat "A" attacks "B" because of any dehumanizing. The concept of humanity is in general not present. The default of the human condition is not to view humans as people, but to view those who are part of one's group as people. And it is far, far too easy for people to turn humans into non-people because that's the basic way social species operate. Reading texts over thousands of years and seeing so few hints of the idea that people are humans and humans are people (whatever words are used) I have a hard time thinking that there is a dehumanization process rather than that we are living in a time where there is a humanization process.

I think it's important to include the data and hypotheses from rape that occurs in prisons and in war because of the thread of familiarity in all.

Important? Yes. Possible? I don't know.



Meh, nobody's perfect. Que sera sera. :D

quid est quod fuit ipsum quod futurum est quid est quod factum est ipsum quod fiendum est [10] nihil sub sole novum nec valet quisquam dicere ecce hoc recens est iam enim praecessit in saeculis quae fuerunt ante nos [11] non est priorum memoria sed nec eorum quidem quae postea futura sunt erit recordatio apud eos qui futuri sunt in novissimo



That can be a springboard for a whole slew of discussions and debates at RF, but is it relevant to the debate here when we are looking at sexual urges as a causal factor in rape?
I don't know. That's the problem when the sciences of the past are used to create experiments with humans as was done in the past with chemistry. "factor" is a word used in a slew of statistical techniques designed to take large data sets and extract the key components (which is why one of the most common is principal component analysis). However, the more data points you have and the more ways you have to plug them into models, the more you can make factors critical simply through mathematical manipulation. And a great deal of studies in the social & behavioral sciences have done this. That said, when something tends to hold true across groups, cultures, time, and circumstance, and could be related, it's at least a factor worth looking into.



Dang it, I suddenly got lost here. I need my morning cup of coffee. What's the relevance with this link?
I was hoping you could tell me. I can't get a handle on understanding how a man can talk about the myths and realities of feminisms and how to approach the critiques and conclusions.
 
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dust1n

Zindīq
What? Why? Why would you reduce the actual sample size needed, you already saw the actual sample size needed is greater than the amount of humans on Earth today.

Going from 9578 to 16641 is not a reduction. EDIT: And no, I didn't already see that the actual sample size would be greater then the amount of humans today; that isn't true at all, sorry.
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey, I'm more just an interested lurker than someone with anything meaningful to contribute at this point, but a couple of thing;

I almost didn't post, and I wrote a post about a hundred times but I was never satisfied so I resorted to a few studies to give some indication of some views or evidence which I hoped (I usually try to find studies that others can access but by that time I was too worn out) would have available copies somewhere.

I'm glad you posted. I found it interesting and educational, which is the main reason I wanted to post here. Didn't want to wander off thinking you much the post made me think without acknowledging it to the author. Sure, I could give you frubals, but I give them out pretty much for anything...

(Anyone I have given frubals to, I don't mean YOURS...Yours were totally deserved)

War is a different matter. Not because the literature is much more clear here (it is, but one of the main theories I believe is wrong), but because long before I went to pursue an undergrad degree, I became interested (or worried) about what makes empathy "work" so that societies can function, and what doesn't. It's the only thing I've published on in a "journal". Evolutionary psychology and its "just so" stories/theories have ways of explaining why humans can be monsters for x evolutionary reasons, but in the end it is (I think) basic human nature to be empathetic to those one regards as people, but not basic human nature to think all humans are people. Historically, this was simply true in general. One tribe, whether Aztec or Achaean, had no problem slaughtering another, especially if they didn't speak a similar language. Roman "peace" (pax romana) was kept through the use of the sword.

It is only in more recent times that the widespread idea of "people are people" has been acknowledged, even if not practiced. But when you ask soldiers to go out and kill people, and these soldiers were raised to believe that killing is wrong, a fundamental psychological mechanism for being able to commit violent acts is to dehumanize the other. Humiliation, sadism, and all forms of cruelty can and do arise. I believe that soldiers raping has the same underlying psychological mechanisms that had men in Abu Ghraib stripped naked and photographed, and probably countless other acts of torture, humiliation, and cruelty in general that will never be reported.

I find this a very interesting perspective, and marries pretty well with my own thoughts about this topic. It's not appropriate for this thread, but I'd be interested in how/if you marry in any sort of group behavioral theory to this.

Just using stereotypes as shorthand (like I said, it isn't really for this thread), but...

Armies are largely constructed of young men who can form pretty right bonds. Identification down to the unit level, etc. As well as dehumanizing (which is a fascinating subject) do you think the fact that the men are a tight group contribute or reinforce behaviours that would normally be anti-social? Almost like the group becomes the society.

I have (sorta) been trying to reconcile my thoughts on war, which largely match what you wrote, with behaviour of other male-dominated, testosterone-type environments, such as sporting teams, etc. (I did warn I'd use stereotypes as shorthand!)

Meh....I should probably have just left it at thanking you for the thought-provoking post really...!
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Back to the example then, muggers, robbers, will just go for the weakest victim in general because they dont want a fight, just their goal: money as easy as it comes.

Predators in general (predating for meat, sutaneance) do the same. We pribably did the same too when we started hunting for flesh millenia ago.

Its just basic. Go for the easy target.

Burglary is still easier than mugging.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I almost didn't post, and I wrote a post about a hundred times but I was never satisfied so I resorted to a few studies to give some indication of some views or evidence which I hoped (I usually try to find studies that others can access but by that time I was too worn out) would have available copies somewhere.


Uh, yes and no. No, because whatever controls and tests they used were not enough, but yes because of the reason (hopefully) they didn't feel the need. The intro is a survey of four decades of "representative" literature such that the authors are able to test something pretty specific.

But perhaps some of that introduction might help clarify or at least provide context (and not just make things worse):
"Researchers and theorists have been emphasizing the role of deviant sexual fantasy in the etiology of sexual offending ever since Abel and Blanchard (1974) stressed its importance in the treatment of sexual deviation. This role has been and is still predominantly related to the acquisition and maintenance of deviant sexual interests via various conditioning and social learning processes (Laws and Marshall, 1990 and McGuire et al., 1965). Considering that deviant sexual interests have been shown to be a key risk factor in sexual offending (Thornton, 2002) as well as the strongest predictor of sexual recidivism (Hanson and Bussière, 1998 and Hanson and Morton-Bourgon, 2005), the assumption that sexual fantasies are an important factor in understanding sexual offending appears more than plausible.
However, it has been argued that deviant sexual fantasies can have a more direct influence on sexual offending. For example, many researchers propose that the recurrent use of deviant sexual fantasies can lead to the commission of a sexual offence in some offenders, whereby the individual becomes motivated to enact the imagery they have mentally simulated within their fantasies (Deu and Edelmann, 1997, MacCulloch et al., 1983, Ward and Hudson, 2000 and Wilson and Jones, 2008). Recent research has provided some support for this hypothesis. For instance, Beech, Fisher, and Ward (2005) found that, in a group of 14 sadistically-motivated sexual murderers, 79% reported ‘carrying out sexual fantasies’ as their main motivation for offending.
Alternatively, others assert that deviant fantasies act as ‘disinhibitors’ that desensitize an individual to deviant behavior. This lowers their internal inhibitions against engaging in such behavior and, therefore, increases the likelihood of offending (Gee, Devilly, & Ward, 2004). Indeed, based on official records and interview data, Proulx, Perreault, and Ouimet (1999) found that for extrafamilial child molesters, deviant fantasies were one of the most frequently reported immediate (12-h) disinhibitors.
Deviant sexual fantasy is, therefore, a factor worthy of both clinical and academic attention. However, as Hudson and Ward (2000) note, it is unlikely that deviant sexual fantasy alone will predict future offending in isolation from other factors related to the offender. Indeed, research has shown that sexual fantasies are interrelated with other key factors such as emotional states and sexual arousal. For example, Gee, Ward, and Eccleston (2003) qualitatively analyzed the interview transcripts of 24 sex offenders and found that sexual fantasies can be used to: (a) regulate affect, (b) enhance/induce sexual arousal, (c) cope, and (d) re-live an offense or simulate a future offense. Researchers also assert that sexual fantasy use is dependent upon the disposition and motivation of the sex offender (e.g., Langton and Marshall, 2001 and Ward et al., 1998). For example, Langton and Marshall explain that sexual sadistic rapists use deviant sexual fantasies for sexual pleasure, whereas sexual nonsadistic rapists use deviant fantasies as a way of compensating for their low masculine self-image and sexual inadequacy. Thus, given that deviant fantasies interrelate significantly with other factors associated with a sexual offender, it appears as though their role is not as straightforward as first thought. Thus, the current paper aims to describe and synthesize research and relevant theory related to deviant sexual fantasy and its various correlates. We begin with a detailed discussion on the definition of deviant sexual fantasy before moving on to discuss some of the main factors that are associated with sex offenders' fantasies. These include deviant sexual interest/arousal, affective states, personality, and behavior. We end with an overall summary and considerations for future research."


....you are astute. Correlation is not causation, but the same people who teach this as a mantra often forget it in practice.



I cannot read studies about women who rape. I want to be able to as it is important but I am not able to do it.

Prison rape is thoroughly investigated and there is an enormous amount of support for...

contradicting theories. One big problem is that the main way to obtain information is from inmates who have various reasons give false reports in different ways, and guards. There is a fair amount of literature on prison guards, from who takes these jobs and why, to the toll it takes. Then there's the pressure that has been addressed more with police in general (i.e., the Serpico/thin blue line problem) but in a community where a guards life can frequently depend upon others guards who can just let lethal situations occur in a number of ways. So both sources are often problematic, and thus there is a lot of data and a lot of arguing over data and not a lot I can discern from it without losing all faith in humanity.

However, prison populations create unique social structures and dynamics (even fake ones: Stanford prison experiment) . And when you remove a gender in a species largely dominated by dyadic gender relations, put large numbers of people whose behavior is already deviant in some way (if they were guilty) with others of the same, it is hard to get conclusions. The prostitution culture in prisons is another area which is totally different except in that it deals with prisons and what is to some degree an emergent social structure that has men doing things they would not otherwise do, but nobody agrees why (how mutable is sexuality? how much is

War is a different matter. Not because the literature is much more clear here (it is, but one of the main theories I believe is wrong), but because long before I went to pursue an undergrad degree, I became interested (or worried) about what makes empathy "work" so that societies can function, and what doesn't. It's the only thing I've published on in a "journal". Evolutionary psychology and its "just so" stories/theories have ways of explaining why humans can be monsters for x evolutionary reasons, but in the end it is (I think) basic human nature to be empathetic to those one regards as people, but not basic human nature to think all humans are people. Historically, this was simply true in general. One tribe, whether Aztec or Achaean, had no problem slaughtering another, especially if they didn't speak a similar language. Roman "peace" (pax romana) was kept through the use of the sword.

It is only in more recent times that the widespread idea of "people are people" has been acknowledged, even if not practiced. But when you ask soldiers to go out and kill people, and these soldiers were raised to believe that killing is wrong, a fundamental psychological mechanism for being able to commit violent acts is to dehumanize the other. Humiliation, sadism, and all forms of cruelty can and do arise. I believe that soldiers raping has the same underlying psychological mechanisms that had men in Abu Ghraib stripped naked and photographed, and probably countless other acts of torture, humiliation, and cruelty in general that will never be reported.




Personally, I have more problem with them citing Thornhill & Palmer.



Crime in general is divided among genders. An evolutionary psychologist would say that this is because historically men did more fighting. They might throw in other arguments too (anything can be an "adaptive psychological trait" as long as you're making up the situations). But I do think that men in general are more easily prone to dehumanizing behaviors. This remains true even in abnormal social settings (e.g,. violence in male prisons vs. females).


Certainly. There are so many things about this paper I keep coming back to because of so much I have trouble thinking could be thought (even just author and title) yet I wonder what if anything is accurate: Feminist contributions to understanding woman abuse: Myths, controversies, & realities.

That's interesting reading. Thank you for posting.

Would you say the correlation between deviant sexual fantasies and rape and the huge proportion of rapists who report that acting out these fantasies was their primary motive supports the idea that these offenders are not simply lacking in opportunities for consensual sex, but specifically interested in sexual violence?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I have access through it from my access to ScienceDirect. However, I will PM you about finding a way to get it to you.

I appreciate the effort. Thank you.

I don't think so. This is terrible, but it popped into my head. As a kid I loved the movie The Secret of NIMH. It was only years later (not that long ago) that I watched it again and heard "national institute of mental health". By that time I was very familiar with what NIMH was and it was quite a shock to realize that this was what the movie (indirectly, as the movie was based on the book) concerned. I also learned that it was related to an actual study of mice who were placed in an artificial environment that radically changed everything about the way mice behave. Mice are, of course, not humans and have a totally different method for maintaining social structures, but the potential for the human mind to shape its own reality is beyond that of any other animal. When a study can turn randomly assigned participants either into authoritarian abusive individuals or prisoners on the verge of open revolt (even though the entire experiment is a fake setting and a lot of props), I think that says a lot about the potential for particular environments to have specific dynamics. When you are already dealing with an abnormal population (as in those who have deviated from cultural and/or social norms), it is very difficult to generalize, and only possible to do so in particular ways.

Very good point. Though I see the possibility for including the "nature vs. nurture" debate into any motivation to rape, too. It's been touched on in this thread, though I haven't seen the desire to delve further into evolutionary psychology and cultural/environmental influence.

I have found that for most of history it hat "A" attacks "B" because of any dehumanizing. The concept of humanity is in general not present. The default of the human condition is not to view humans as people, but to view those who are part of one's group as people. And it is far, far too easy for people to turn humans into non-people because that's the basic way social species operate. Reading texts over thousands of years and seeing so few hints of the idea that people are humans and humans are people (whatever words are used) I have a hard time thinking that there is a dehumanization process rather than that we are living in a time where there is a humanization process.

Yes. To add, though, I think the humanization process includes contemplating a perspective that is able to distinguish between what is ethical and what isn't. If we describe "sex" as a consensual activity between two people, it becomes very problematic to attribute what is deemed a consensual activity to a violent attack.

I know it may seem like I'm splitting hairs here to others, but I find the complexity of attributing "sexual urges" to a motivation for a violent crime to be unsettling. Are we talking about "sexual urges" as just an erection? Sexual fantasy? Cultural indoctrination? Hormonal fluctuations?

It's one of the reasons I have to remove myself from some of the debates that surround rape as a crime of "passion". The insistence on defining "sex" as a consensual activity becomes a blurred line of ethics when wanting to include criminal intent.....I find the language used at best flippant and at worst callous and cruel. And this is why I prefer to discuss the issue from an angle that is presented here between you and I.

quid est quod fuit ipsum quod futurum est quid est quod factum est ipsum quod fiendum est [10] nihil sub sole novum nec valet quisquam dicere ecce hoc recens est iam enim praecessit in saeculis quae fuerunt ante nos [11] non est priorum memoria sed nec eorum quidem quae postea futura sunt erit recordatio apud eos qui futuri sunt in novissimo

Hee hee. Ecclesiastes? It was one of my favorite books from the Bible.

I don't know. That's the problem when the sciences of the past are used to create experiments with humans as was done in the past with chemistry. "factor" is a word used in a slew of statistical techniques designed to take large data sets and extract the key components (which is why one of the most common is principal component analysis). However, the more data points you have and the more ways you have to plug them into models, the more you can make factors critical simply through mathematical manipulation. And a great deal of studies in the social & behavioral sciences have done this. That said, when something tends to hold true across groups, cultures, time, and circumstance, and could be related, it's at least a factor worth looking into.

I couldn't agree more.

I was hoping you could tell me. I can't get a handle on understanding how a man can talk about the myths and realities of feminisms and how to approach the critiques and conclusions.

LOL well you gotta give a man credit for trying. ;)

On a serious note, I have the link bookmarked and will read it later on today with a mind that is more clear and awake.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
I appreciate the effort. Thank you.



Very good point. Though I see the possibility for including the "nature vs. nurture" debate into any motivation to rape, too. It's been touched on in this thread, though I haven't seen the desire to delve further into evolutionary psychology and cultural/environmental influence.



Yes. To add, though, I think the humanization process includes contemplating a perspective that is able to distinguish between what is ethical and what isn't. If we describe "sex" as a consensual activity between two people, it becomes very problematic to attribute what is deemed a consensual activity to a violent attack.

I know it may seem like I'm splitting hairs here to others, but I find the complexity of attributing "sexual urges" to a motivation for a violent crime to be unsettling. Are we talking about "sexual urges" as just an erection? Sexual fantasy? Cultural indoctrination? Hormonal fluctuations?

It's one of the reasons I have to remove myself from some of the debates that surround rape as a crime of "passion". The insistence on defining "sex" as a consensual activity becomes a blurred line of ethics when wanting to include criminal intent.....I find the language used at best flippant and at worst callous and cruel. And this is why I prefer to discuss the issue from an angle that is presented here between you and I.



Hee hee. Ecclesiastes? It was one of my favorite books from the Bible.



I couldn't agree more.



LOL well you gotta give a man credit for trying. ;)

On a serious note, I have the link bookmarked and will read it later on today with a mind that is more clear and awake.

I fully support the insistence on defining sex as an implicitly consensual activity, and anything else as violence, even if there are genitals involved. Who would have thought that would be a controversial position!
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
I fully support the insistence on defining sex as an implicitly consensual activity, and anything else as violence, even if there are genitals involved. Who would have thought that would be a controversial position!

Not controversial, just narrow and incomplete. However, I understand the emotional motivation for your position.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Not controversial, just narrow and incomplete. However, I understand the emotional motivation for your position.

Emotional in what way? It strikes me as a very rational position. Ask any rape victim if they recall the experience of being assaulted as "having sex" or as "violence".
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Emotional in what way? It strikes me as a very rational position. Ask any rape victim if they recall the experience of being assaulted as "having sex" or as "violence".

Yes, it is quite rational for them to have a strong emotional feeling regarding the experience. However, I don't know whether the best source of objective definitions of words are people who have trauma relating to the word.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Yes, it is quite rational for them to have a strong emotional feeling regarding the experience. However, I don't know whether the best source of objective definitions of words are people who have trauma relating to the word.

I don't have trauma or personal emotions relating to the word. It just strikes me as a rational definition. Insofar as it is useful to have categories for things at all, and to choose words to describe those categories, it is very misleading and confusing for people to put rape in the "sex" category as opposed to the "violence" category. You end up with people assuming lack of sex can turn you into a rapist and other such nonsense.

Some folks are sexually aroused by violence, sure. Some people are sexually aroused by putting on a fuzzy cat suit. Is putting on a fuzzy cat suit sex?
 
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Me Myself

Back to my username
I fully support the insistence on defining sex as an implicitly consensual activity, and anything else as violence, even if there are genitals involved. Who would have thought that would be a controversial position!

Rape is forced sexual activity. If you want to define it as not sexual, how are you differentiating rape from stabbing someone in the face?

Sex can be good or bad, and when I say bad I dont merely mean unsatisfactory, I mean rape bad.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
I don't have trauma or personal emotions relating to the word. It just strikes me as a rational definition. Insofar as it is useful to have categories for things at all, and to choose words to describe those categories, it is very misleading and confusing for people to put rape in the "sex" category as opposed to the "violence" category. You end up with people assuming lack of sex can turn you into a rapist and other such nonsense.

Some folks are sexually aroused by violence, sure. Some people are sexually aroused by putting on a fuzzy cat suit. Is putting on a fuzzy cat suit sex?

It is both. Why do you have such either mentality? rape is sex and is violence. That is pretty much what defins rape. If it was only violence, then it wouldnt be rape, it would be some other kind of violence (like shooting at someone in the shoulder)
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Rape is forced sexual activity. If you want to define it as not sexual, how are you differentiating rape from stabbing someone in the face?

Sex can be good or bad, and when I say bad I dont merely mean unsatisfactory, I mean rape bad.

Did I say "sexual" or did I say "sex"? Masturbation is sexual, but we don't think of it in the category "sex", right?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
It is both. Why do you have such either mentality? rape is sex and is violence. That is pretty much what defins rape. If it was only violence, then it wouldnt be rape, it would be some other kind of violence (like shooting at someone in the shoulder)

It's pragmatism. If we want to understand how to prevent sexual violence, we need to understand that it truly is a form of violence, like bullying, gay bashing, etc. rather than just a fancy way of having sex.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
It's pragmatism. If we want to understand how to prevent sexual violence, we need to understand that it truly is a form of violence, like bullying, gay bashing, etc. rather than just a fancy way of having sex.

Yes, its both. You are still thinking is either violence or sex. I am not sure why you think one definition threatens the reality of the other.

Rape is forced sex. It is violence since the word "forced".
 
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