Rape?

[Poisonshady313]

If muggers weren't primarily motivated by the desire to intimidate and terrorize the source of their funds, they'd be burglars. Burglary is easier than robbery.

I'll say it again. Intimidation and terror are a means to an end. The goal is the money.

"power" answers "how", not "why".

Criminals aren't geniuses. They're not always going to do what's most logical. They want what they want and they DON'T CARE HOW THEY GET IT. If that means hurting/intimidating innocent people, then so be it.

I'm sure sometimes you get those who hurt people for the sake of hurting people. I'm sure there are sick ******** out there who thrive on human suffering. But I do not believe that every violent act is committed by such people. Sometimes the violence is simply a means to an end.

 

[Alceste]

Sex is defined as any sexual activity between people.

Rape isn't "between people", it's something one person does to another person against their will. Is gay bashing "fighting"?

 

[Alceste]

Yes, its both. You are still thinking is either violence or sex. I am not sure why you think one definition threatens the reality of the other.

Rape is forced sex. It is violence since the word "forced".

The victim isn't having sex. They're being raped.

 

[Me Myself]

Rape isn't "between people", it's something one person does to another person against their will. Is gay bashing "fighting"?

Yes, people are involved. Sexual activity with more than one person involved. That`s sex.

 

[Alceste]

I'll say it again. Intimidation and terror are a means to an end. The goal is the money.

"power" answers "how", not "why".

Criminals aren't geniuses. They're not always going to do what's most logical. They want what they want and they DON'T CARE HOW THEY GET IT. If that means hurting/intimidating innocent people, then so be it.

I'm sure sometimes you get those who hurt people for the sake of hurting people. I'm sure there are sick ******** out there who thrive on human suffering. But I do not believe that every violent act is committed by such people. Sometimes the violence is simply a means to an end.

You must have missed the post where the large majority of convicted rapists acknowledged their crime was the enactment of a deviant sexual fantasy.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, people are involved. Sexual activity with more than one person involved. That`s sex.

Rape is rape. There aren't "two people involved". There's a perpetrator and a victim, and the victim is not "having sex", they're being assaulted.

 

[Me Myself]

The victim isn't having sex. They're being raped.

If they are not having some form of sex they are not being raped.

If you stab Bobby in the face he wasn`t raped but he was obviously the victim of violence. If Bobby`s butt gets penetrated against his will he is having forced sex against his will.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Eh? I'm acknowledging that sane people think things through and tend to select the path of least resistance to obtain whatever it is they truly want. So, if you simply want money, you steal it without risking confrontational interactions with other people. If you want the person you took the money from to KNOW that you're taking it against their will, and there's nothing they can do about it, you mug them. That's about power, not money.

Maybe that confrontational interaction IS the path of least resistance, because doors are locked, breaking and entering is such a hassle, plus now there's the threat of a confrontation with someone in their own home... so pull a weapon on a guy walking down the street, and chances are he values his life more than his wallet... so he'll give it up. Easy money. Does the mugger necessarily care that he just screwed up some guy's day? No. Did he set out to ruin someone's day? Not in his mind. He got the money he needed. It wasn't about the intimidation. The intimidation was merely a means to an end.

 

[Me Myself]

Rape is rape. There aren't "two people involved". There's a perpetrator and a victim, and the victim is not "having sex", they're being assaulted.

assaulted with sex. The perpetrator may be a monster, but is still people, naturally, so is the victim.

 

[Alceste]

If they are not having some form of sex they are not being raped.

If you stab Bobby in the face he wasn`t raped but he was obviously the victim of violence. If Bobby`s butt gets penetrated against his will he is having forced sex against his will.

So let's say Bobby is the victim of a gay bashing, and as part of the attack the perpetrator sticks something (bottle, broom handle, whatever) in Bobby's rectum. Is Bobby "having sex" with his assailant?

 

[Poisonshady313]

You must have missed the post where the large majority of convicted rapists acknowledged their crime was the enactment of a deviant sexual fantasy.

Sexual fantasy. Your words, not mine.

A fantasy that couldn't be fulfilled consensually. So they made it happen non-consensually. Doesn't sound like someone whose motivation was power. They wanted what they wanted... and if it wouldn't be given, it would be taken.

 

[Alceste]

Maybe that confrontational interaction IS the path of least resistance, because doors are locked, breaking and entering is such a hassle, plus now there's the threat of a confrontation with someone in their own home... so pull a weapon on a guy walking down the street, and chances are he values his life more than his wallet... so he'll give it up. Easy money. Does the mugger necessarily care that he just screwed up some guy's day? No. Did he set out to ruin someone's day? Not in his mind. He got the money he needed. It wasn't about the intimidation. The intimidation was merely a means to an end.

According to you.

 

[Alceste]

Sexual fantasy. Your words, not mine.

A fantasy that couldn't be fulfilled consensually. So they made it happen non-consensually. Doesn't sound like someone whose motivation was power. They wanted what they wanted... and if it wouldn't be given, it would be taken.

Of course it couldn't be obtained consensually. The fantasy is rape. Sexual violence. Obviously consensual sex is not going to satisfy someone who prefers rape, because consensual sex isn't violent.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Again, why do you think that is important for every rapist?

Say Jenny has sex with Bob and drugs him. When Bob wakes up he is missing a kidney and Jenny left a note saying he needs to go to the hospital. in x hours or he will die.

Bob is thraumatized.

Do you think Jenny did this to traumathize Bob or to sell his kidney?

I think I've already addressed this. I still believe the comparison of rape to selling organs, bank robberies, car theft, etc. to be inaccurate, for the reasons I clarified in earlier posts.

I dont think I know of any psychopaths, and if I do, they dont seem to trust me that much.

I must be doing somthing wrong, right?

Let's say one of those psychopaths/sociopaths/whatever could have consensual sex. Do you think they wouldn't rape someone in that case? Would that really prevent them from violently assaulting another person? Why or why not?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Did I say "sexual" or did I say "sex"? Masturbation is sexual, but we don't think of it in the category "sex", right?

I would think "Rape" is defined by forced penetration orally, vaginally, or anally. Here is an updated definition by the FBI that I find adequate, broad, inclusive and accurate:

The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.

Source: FBI — Attorney General Eric Holder Announces Revisions to the Uniform Crime Report

I also find no allusions to any erections, "carnal knowledge", gender specific victimhood, crimes of passion, or really the word "sex" except to describe genitalia, which if I were to nitpick further is what is I would personally suggest to use. But overall, I think this definition will further clarify the nature of the crime, as the FBI news update suggests:

This change will give law enforcement the ability to report more complete rape offense data, as the new definition reflects the vast majority of state rape statutes. As we implement this change, the FBI is confident that the number of victims of this heinous crime will be more accurately reflected in national crime statistics.

 

[Poisonshady313]

The victim isn't having sex. They're being raped.

Intercourse. Penetration. Any definition of sex boils down to that element.

Rape is sex without consent.

Nobody is saying that the sex involved with rape is enjoyable, meaningful, sensual, or any of the positive things associated with consensual sex.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Intercourse. Penetration. Any definition of sex boils down to that element.

Rape is sex without consent.

Nobody is saying that the sex involved with rape is enjoyable, meaningful, sensual, or any of the positive things associated with consensual sex.

A man is raped when a perpetrator forces a steel rod into his anus.

Is that sexual?

 

[Me Myself]

I think I've already addressed this. I still believe the comparison of rape to selling organs, bank robberies, car theft, etc. to be inaccurate, for the reasons I clarified in earlier posts.

I honestly dont feel it was clarified at all.

You said the bank thing wasnt a good example because maybe people wont be hurt. With the organs thing, there is no doubt there will be someone hurt (physically and emotionally).

Maybe I remember wrong your reasoning though.

 

[Me Myself]

A man is raped when a perpetrator forces a steel rod into his anus.

Is that sexual?

edit: Actually, I am changing my answer. If neither extracts some form of sexual gratification from it, it is by definition not a "sexual" activity. If the perpetrator put the rod cause he found it sexy, then it is forced sex.

 

[Me Myself]

Let's say one of those psychopaths/sociopaths/whatever could have consensual sex. Do you think they wouldn't rape someone in that case? Would that really prevent them from violently assaulting another person? Why or why not?

Provided their motivation would have been to have sex with someone else, yes, that would prevent the violence because there would be no motivation to be violent. Of course such a person is in itself the problem.