Rape?

[Poisonshady313]

Sure. For some people, the fun part is aggressively asserting your will over the will of another living, breathing, thinking, feeling, suffering human being. That's why we call rape violence as opposed to sex.

The act is violent... nobody questions that.

The question is the original motivation.

My assertion is that, at least in some cases, the violence is a means to an end... not the end itself.

 

[Alceste]

We shouldn't assume anything. We should follow the evidence where it leads.

Unless we want to believe that rape is often or usually the result of being really horny and not having access to willing partners. In that case, we must ignore all the evidence and stick with our prejudices, myths and misconceptions.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Unless we want to believe that rape is often or usually the result of being really horny and not having access to willing partners. In that case, we must ignore all the evidence and stick with our prejudices, myths and misconceptions.

Who said anything about often or usually?

All I'm going for is occasionally. Perhaps even infrequently.

But "never"? That's a stretch.

 

[Me Myself]

Unless we want to believe that rape is often or usually the result of being really horny and not having access to willing partners. In that case, we must ignore all the evidence and stick with our prejudices, myths and misconceptions.

I ve talked nothing about frequency. Even if we thought it was the most frequent scenario, each individual case should be judged individually.

Unless we want to think all rape is always power or anger or sadism and can never be anything else ever because there are like 7 rapists in the whole world and they all agreed to follow your guidelines.

 

[Alceste]

The act is violent... nobody questions that.

The question is the original motivation.

My assertion is that, at least in some cases, the violence is a means to an end... not the end itself.

What is the "end" that is pursued most commonly with bullying, gay bashing, spousal abuse, child abuse, elder abuse, etc. in your opinion? What do these acts of violence have in common, if anything, when it comes to motivation? (I'm asking for what you think is generally true, not asking for what you think must be true in every individual case.)

 

[Alceste]

I ve talked nothing about frequency. Even if we thought it was the most frequent scenario, each individual case should be judged individually.

Unless we want to think all rape is always power or anger or sadism and can never be anything else ever because there are like 7 rapists in the whole world and they all agreed to follow your guidelines.

I'm not arguing against dealing with rape accusations on a case by case basis. I'm arguing in favour of understanding what is generally true in most cases. Also, to be clear, I define rape as purposefully imposing yourself on a person you are completely aware is not consenting or unable to consent. I'm not talking about getting black out drunk and waking up to a surprise rape accusation.

 

[Me Myself]

What is the "end" that is pursued most commonly with bullying, gay bashing, spousal abuse, child abuse, elder abuse, etc. in your opinion? )

I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T

but if you ask: both bullying and gay bashing tend to be about fighting inner demons outside oneself. Spousal abuse will depend on case by case. Elder abuse I have no idea, I d assume also depend on case by case.

Its important to notice that in all this cases, unless they are rape, there is no other inherent gratification like with rape having sex as an inherent gratification on it.

You dont see monkeys gay bashing, but they do rape.

 

[Me Myself]

I'm not arguing against dealing with rape accusations on a case by case basis. I'm arguing in favour of understanding what is generally true in most cases. Also, to be clear, I define rape as purposefully imposing yourself on a person you are completely aware is not consenting or unable to consent. I'm not talking about getting black out drunk and waking up to a surprise rape accusation.

I dont pretend to know what is true in most cases. The only thing I have argued since the start is that it is not reasonable to pretend rape has never sex as a motivation, even a main one, at least once in a while.

 

[dust1n]

How could you possibly evidence that this has never happened and never could?

Again, do you have any idea of the sample size you would need to evidence such a thing? I `ll give you a hint: you wont get it.

Assuming there are 7 billion people on the planet, and half are male (3.5bil), you would only need a sample size of 9578 males to reach a 99% confidence level with a 1% margin of error, assuming the sample was legitimately random.

 

[Me Myself]

Assuming there are 7 billion people on the planet, and half are male (3.5bil), you would only need a sample size of 9578 males to reach a 99% confidence level with a 1% margin of error, assuming the sample was legitimately random.

There are several problems with that. First of all, you get a bunch of different cultures in there. Second of all, the study wont include the words "Cant happen" and "Ever" on it`s conclusion.

And as you very well said, there is always even a margin of error.

 

[Alceste]

I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T

but if you ask: both bullying and gay bashing tend to be about fighting inner demons outside oneself. Spousal abuse will depend on case by case. Elder abuse I have no idea, I d assume also depend on case by case.

Its important to notice that in all this cases, unless they are rape, there is no other inherent gratification like with rape having sex as an inherent gratification on it.

You dont see monkeys gay bashing, but they do rape.

Not irrelevant at all. Among our more disturbing natural inclinations is a desire to hurt whoever we perceive to be weak, deviant, outsiders or competitors. This is what I believe is the underlying cause of all violence against other human beings, with the possible exception of cannibals who have no access to other food sources. We can observe this behavior in pretty much all primates and most mammals. Social mammals use violence to secure status, access to mating opportunities and access to resources. But they don't attack willy nilly. They eliminate the weakest competitors and assault the least capable and popular members of the social group.

 

[Me Myself]

Not irrelevant at all. Among our more disturbing natural inclinations is a desire to hurt whoever we perceive to be weak, deviant, outsiders or competitors. This is what I believe is the underlying cause of all violence against other human beings, with the possible exception of cannibals who have no access to other food sources. We can observe this behavior in pretty much all primates and most mammals. Social mammals use violence to secure status, access to mating opportunities and access to resources. But they don't attack willy nilly. They eliminate the weakest competitors and assault the least capable and popular members of the social group.

Irrelevant because those scenarios as already established dont have an inherent other posible motivation where rape obviously does: Bobby`s butt.

 

[Poisonshady313]

What is the "end" that is pursued most commonly with bullying, gay bashing, spousal abuse, child abuse, elder abuse, etc. in your opinion? What do these acts of violence have in common, if anything, when it comes to motivation? (I'm asking for what you think is generally true, not asking for what you think must be true in every individual case.)

I don't know. In the case of bullying or gay bashing, perhaps social vindication from their peers who are bigoted jerks. In the case of the various forms of abuse, perhaps it's misplaced anger, violent outbursts that might be heaped upon helpless victims, rather than the true intended target.

Whatever it is, and none of it is defensible, I believe it's more than simply the delight in causing others pain or the high of establishing one's dominance. Those things are part of it, but I don't think it's the whole picture.

 

[Me Myself]

Sociobiological theories of rape - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Animal coercive sex [edit]

Further information: Animal sexual behaviour#Coercive sex, Sexual selection, and Sexual conflict
It has been noted that behavior resembling rape in humans is observed in the animal kingdom, including ducks and geese, bottlenose dolphins,[1] and chimpanzees.[2] Indeed in orangutans, close human relatives, copulations of this nature may account for up to half of all observed matings.[3] Such behaviours, referred to as ‘forced copulations’, involve an animal being approached and sexually penetrated whilst it struggles or attempts to escape. These observations of forced sex among animals are not controversial. What is controversial is the interpretation of these observations and the extension of theories based on them to humans. “Thornhill introduces this theory by describing the sexual behavior of scorpion flies. In which the male may gain sex from the female either by presenting a gift of food during courtship or without a nuptial offering, in which case force is necessary to restrain her.” [4]

Does the scorpion has a kink?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Not irrelevant at all. Among our more disturbing natural inclinations is a desire to hurt whoever we perceive to be weak, deviant, outsiders or competitors. This is what I believe is the underlying cause of all violence against other human beings, with the possible exception of cannibals who have no access to other food sources. We can observe this behavior in pretty much all primates and most mammals. Social mammals use violence to secure status, access to mating opportunities and access to resources. But they don't attack willy nilly. They eliminate the weakest competitors and assault the least capable and popular members of the social group.

You just answered your own question. to secure status, access to mating opportunities and access to resources. They eliminate the weakest competitors and assault the least capable and popular members of the social group.

They don't hurt for hurt's sake. They do it to either take something from someone else or to secure what belongs to them.

Whether that thing is money, food, social status, sexual gratification, etc.. there's usually some sort of purpose that is more than just the desire to inflict pain.

 

[Me Myself]

Did you know some scorpions fantasize about domination and humilliation sex? They rape, so it must be true.

 

[dust1n]

There are several problems with that. First of all, you get a bunch of different cultures in there. Second of all, the study wont include the words "Cant happen" and "Ever" on it`s conclusion.

And as you very well said, there is always even a margin of error.

Hey, you brought up sample sizes, and I provided the necessary sample size. What are you contesting?

 

[Me Myself]

Hey, you brought up sample sizes, and I provided the necessary sample size. What are you contesting?

You think that sample size would takl for all humanity ever? o.o

Do you have information about any study that had available money as to control such a sample? any links? o.o

 

[dust1n]

You think that sample size would takl for all humanity ever? o.o

Statistically speaking, yes, at a 99% confidence level, with a 1% margin of error, assuming the sample is random. I didn't determine what is the correct sample size...

Do you have information about any study that had available money as to control such a sample? any links? o.o

What does that have to do with the necessary sample size?

 

[Me Myself]

Statistically speaking, yes, at a 99% confidence level, with a 1% margin of error, assuming the sample is random. I didn't determine what is the correct sample size...

What does that have to do with the necessary sample size?

I dont think you followed. Today we have 7 billion humans. To calculate about all humanity ever we would first need to know how many human beings have been born and died to this day, and then extract a sample size from that. Then again, that wouldnt tell us if it is impossible in the future, for the future we would need to speculate on future human population numbers and add them.

All of that without even taking into consideration that a social study that is more than 7 years old is considered outdated already.