Rape?

[Alceste]

Thanks.

I have to be honest. Some of the responses I'm reading is difficult for me right now. I appreciate the understanding. Seriously.

I can't imagine. It's difficult for me to read our vaginas being equated to bags of money and our selves being equated to bank tellers standing between the robber and the money bags, and I am not dealing with the emotional aftermath of a violent assault. You're one tough cookie. I admire the hell out of you. You've got more patience and tolerance than I thought could be squeezed into one small person.

 

[Me Myself]

I can't imagine. It's difficult for me to read our vaginas being equated to bags of money and our stoves being equated to bank tellers standing between the robber and the money bags, and I am not dealing with the emotional aftermath of a violent assault.

Then why discuss rape? its not a light subject.

I like my kidneys, I am still aware they only mean $$ for some people out there.

People be cold.

 

[Alceste]

Then why discuss rape? its not a light subject.

I like my kidneys, I am still aware they only mean $$ for some people out there.

People be cold.

If we're talking about rapists being mainly motivated by lack of access to consensual sex and not caring that there's a person attached to the orifice they're yearning for, we're not really talking about rape. We might be talking about certain people's personal sexual fantasies, but we're not talking about the reality of actual rape.

 

[Me Myself]

If we're talking about rapists being mainly motivated by lack of access to consensual sex and not caring that there's a person attached to the orifice they're yearning for, we're not really talking about rape. We might be talking about certain people's personal sexual fantasies, but we're not talking about the reality of actual rape.

How could you possibly evidence that this has never happened and never could?

Again, do you have any idea of the sample size you would need to evidence such a thing? I `ll give you a hint: you wont get it.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Is there a similar analogy for supporters of the OP's argument that includes a human being rather than comparing it to robbing a bank?

Also, does prison rape have the same propensity to be sexualized?

Regarding prison rape... I'd apply my same argument to that. A guy in prison can't get the sexual contact he wants, so he takes it from another inmate.

As for another analogy, one that involves a human being... Ricky shoots Bobby in the face. Do you conclude that there is no possible motivation other than a fetish for gun violence that led to this act, or is it possible, within the realm of human experience, that there might have been some motive for Ricky to do this, and shooting Bobby in the face was a means to an end?

 

[Alceste]

How could you possibly evidence that this has never happened and never could?

Again, do you have any idea of the sample size you would need to evidence such a thing? I `ll give you a hint: you wont get it.

I'll give you my evidence that no rapist has ever been indifferent to whether or not a person is attached to the organ they're using when you give me your evidence that God doesn't exist.

 

[Alceste]

Regarding prison rape... I'd apply my same argument to that. A guy in prison can't get the sexual contact he wants, so he takes it from another inmate.

As for another analogy, one that involves a human being... Ricky shoots Bobby in the face. Do you conclude that there is no possible motivation other than a fetish for gun violence that led to this act, or is it possible, within the realm of human experience, that there might have been some motive for Ricky to do this, and shooting Bobby in the face was a means to an end?

Once again, nobody is claiming that one unique factor causes rape. If Ricky planned to shoot Bobby in the face for weeks and had no other motive to do so, it would be reasonable to conclude that the shooting itself - the experience of asserting his will over the will of another in a violent manner causing death - was his motive.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Rapists do not have a higher instance of sociopathy or mental illness than the general population, according to the "rape myths" link I posted ages ago.

They know the act will cause suffering, and the suffering is what they want. Exactly like someone who beats up a homosexual. They CARE that the victim suffers. The victim is SUPPOSED to suffer. Rapists are exactly like people who beat up a child or an elderly person, or schoolyard bullies. If the victim doesn't suffer, what's the point of the violence in the first place? If it isn't the suffering that you get off on, why bother getting your end away in a fashion that you are fully conscious necessarily inflicts great suffering? Considering the options - masturbation, prostitution, consensual sex, sex with a sheep, etc. WHY BOTHER hurting a person to get sex if you're not into hurting people?

FYI, most sociopaths are not violent. They simply lack empathy.

Some people will do whatever it takes... including hurting people... to get what they want.

Why bother? Selfishness. Cruelty doesn't have to make sense to you.

How about a mugging. That might occur because a meth head needs money for his next fix. He doesn't have a job... so he robs people of their money, possibly in a violent manner... he doesn't care that he's hurting or traumatizing the victim. He wants what he wants and will do what it takes to get it.

You cannot reconcile the notion that rape includes an element of objectification AND that the rapist necessarily CARES about the suffering of the victim. He's either using the victim as an object, or he isn't.

 

[Me Myself]

Once again, nobody is claiming that one unique factor causes rape. If Ricky planned to shoot Bobby in the face for weeks and had no other motive to do so, it would be reasonable to conclude that the shooting itself - the experience if asserting his will over the will of another in a violent manner causing death - was his motive.

Pretty much. Now replace shooting with rape and "sex with a human being" as the motive.

Buala!

 

[Me Myself]

you cannot reconcile the notion that rape includes an element of objectification and that the rapist necessarily cares about the suffering of the victim. He's either using the victim as an object, or he isn't.

This!

 

[Poisonshady313]

Once again, nobody is claiming that one unique factor causes rape. If Ricky planned to shoot Bobby in the face for weeks and had no other motive to do so, it would be reasonable to conclude that the shooting itself - the experience of asserting his will over the will of another in a violent manner causing death - was his motive.

"and had no other motive to do so" How would you know? You're assuming the conclusion to support the conclusion. That's circular reasoning.

Maybe Ricky was in line for the promotion given to Bobby. Maybe Ricky's wife cheated on him with Bobby. Maybe Bobby's wife was cheating on him with Ricky, and Ricky took out Bobby so he could have his wife to himself. Maybe Bobby was a boss that fired Ricky... maybe Bobby took all of Ricky's money in a poker game and Ricky was a sore loser...


The point is, it's unreasonable to suggest that for all the people who have ever shot anyone in the face, the only motive for it is exerting power over the victim. There's more to it than that. The existence of some other motive doesn't excuse or justify the crime.

 

[Alceste]

"and had no other motive to do so" How would you know? You're assuming the conclusion to support the conclusion. That's circular reasoning.

Maybe Ricky was in line for the promotion given to Bobby. Maybe Ricky's wife cheated on him with Bobby. Maybe Bobby's wife was cheating on him with Ricky, and Ricky took out Bobby so he could have his wife to himself. Maybe Bobby was a boss that fired Ricky... maybe Bobby took all of Ricky's money in a poker game and Ricky was a sore loser...


The point is, it's unreasonable to suggest that for all the people who have ever shot anyone in the face, the only motive for it is exerting power over the victim. There's more to it than that. The existence of some other motive doesn't excuse or justify the crime.

So if Ricky rapes Bobby, we should assume it was because he wanted a promotion, or wanted Bobby's wallet, etc?

 

[Alceste]

Some people will do whatever it takes... including hurting people... to get what they want.

Why bother? Selfishness. Cruelty doesn't have to make sense to you.

How about a mugging. That might occur because a meth head needs money for his next fix. He doesn't have a job... so he robs people of their money, possibly in a violent manner... he doesn't care that he's hurting or traumatizing the victim. He wants what he wants and will do what it takes to get it.

You cannot reconcile the notion that rape includes an element of objectification AND that the rapist necessarily CARES about the suffering of the victim. He's either using the victim as an object, or he isn't.

If the rapist only wanted to have sex with an object, he or she would simply have sex with an object. Why do you think flesh lights and vibrators do such a brisk trade?

 

[Me Myself]

So if Ricky rapes Bobby, we should assume it was because he wanted a promotion, or wanted Bobby's wallet, etc?

Or wanted Bobby´s butt.

 

[Alceste]

Or wanted Bobby´s butt.

Why Bobby's butt? Why not a synthetic butt? Like a steak, a doll or a flesh light?

 

[Me Myself]

Why Bobby's butt? Why not a synthetic butt? Like a steak, a doll or a flesh light?

Because he wants Bobby`s butt. He likes Bobby`s face, he likes Bobby`s legs, he likes Bobby`s butt.

Ask Rick

 

[Poisonshady313]

Here's why it's creepy. It's because nobody is bringing up a man's mouth as an equivalent.

I'd be much more convinced if the arguments in favor of sexualized rape discussed the sexualization of prison rape, child rape, elderly rape, rape by women in their sexual prime and outstanding libidos, and same sex rape. But typically, those who favor sexualization of rape talk about out of control testosterone and erections as proof of sexual urges.

For what it's worth, I apply the same argument I've been using all along to all those scenarios. Prison rape, child rape, elderly rape... criminals taking what they want, especially from people who are not in a position to stop them. Power/control is a means to an end. Yes, I'm sure that in a great many situations, power/control itself is the goal. But I don't believe for a second that this is the case EVERY time.

 

[Poisonshady313]

So if Ricky rapes Bobby, we should assume it was because he wanted a promotion, or wanted Bobby's wallet, etc?

We shouldn't assume anything. We should follow the evidence where it leads.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If the rapist only wanted to have sex with an object, he or she would simply have sex with an object. Why do you think flesh lights and vibrators do such a brisk trade?

For some people, flesh lights and vibrators aren't enough.

 

[Alceste]

For some people, flesh lights and vibrators aren't enough.

Sure. For some people, the fun part is aggressively asserting your will over the will of another living, breathing, thinking, feeling, suffering human being. That's why we call rape violence as opposed to sex.