Rape?

[Me Myself]

Again, rape isn't theft. It's physical assault. So we're not talking about the difference between taking the bus and stealing a car. We're talking about the difference between car jacking - intentionally waiting until there is a human being to threaten, intimidate or injure - and hot wiring a car with nobody in it. The former is like rape, the latter is like masturbation.

Again, you are confusing an analogy with the real case.

As he already said, some people dont care about other people`s feelings. If they dont care about other people, the differentiation between stealing to get what you want and damaging anothr human being to do so doesnt matter in their heads.

Given that we are analising motivation and not moral, what is in their heads is the only thing that matters for the analogy, and as such... well hopefully you understood by now.

 

[Alceste]

Well, all rape is sex or sexual.

In any case, people often go after the "closest" thing to what we really want.

If someone wants sex and doesnt care wheter it is consensual or not, well, he doesnt.

Still more likely to try consensual first to avoid legal punishment, but if he wants it badly enough and has no moral or empathic inner restraints, he may very well go for it in the way he can find it, even if that is rape. (notice most people would have moral or empathic restraints for it. )

Give me a real world example of an actual person who sincerely doesn't care if there is consent.

 

[Me Myself]

Give me a real world example of an actual person who sincerely doesn't care if there is consent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

Anyone there that happens not to have the morals needed for giving a **** .

 

[Alceste]

Again, you are confusing an analogy with the real case.

As he already said, some people dont care about other people`s feelings. If they dont care about other people, the differentiation between stealing to get what you want and damaging anothr human being to do so doesnt matter in their heads.

Given that we are analising motivation and not moral, what is in their heads is the only thing that matters for the analogy, and as such... well hopefully you understood by now.

My point is that rapists DO care about their victims' feelings. They WANT the tears, squirming, protestations, etc. They plan their crimes in advance 70% of the time in full knowledge that they are not going to make any effort to obtain consent.

A famous prostitute's daughter-in-law once advised me that if I ever find myself in a situation I fear might turn into a rape, I should take the initiative. Act completely into it and take control of the situation. She claimed that an aspiring rapist loses interest completely and can't even get it up when you do this. She said she'd tried it and it worked. I know anecdotal evidence is not compelling, but in this case it is backed by a huge amount of psychological research on convicted rapists. The story she told me is consistent with the psychological profile of the average rapist. They want to hurt you, dominate you and force you to do things you don't want to do. And they want to see evidence of your suffering and unwillingness. That's their whole kick. That's why they pick victims who seem vulnerable and unlikely to fight very hard. Enthusiasm is like a bucket of ice water on the nads of your average rapist.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Again, rape isn't theft. It's physical assault. So we're not talking about the difference between taking the bus and stealing a car. We're talking about the difference between car jacking - intentionally waiting until there is a human being to threaten, intimidate or injure - and hot wiring a car with nobody in it, or borrowing a car. The former is like rape, the middle is like masturbation, the latter is like consensual sex.

Um... no.

First of all, masturbation isn't illegal. Hot wiring a car that isn't yours is illegal. The moment you put the car in drive and accelerate, it's now theft.

But lets stick with carjacking for a moment. Wave a gun in front of a driver's face, telling them to get out of the car.

Was that done for the sake of intimidation? For the thrill of exerting power over another individual using the threat of violence? Or is it possible it was done to obtain that person's car?

 

[Me Myself]

My point is that rapists DO care about their victims' feelings. They WANT the tears, squirming, protestations, etc. They plan their crimes in advance 70% of the time in full knowledge that they are not going to make any effort to obtain consent.

A famous prostitute's daughter-in-law once advised me that if I ever find myself in a situation I fear might turn into a rape, I should take the initiative. Act completely into it and take control of the situation. She claimed that an aspiring rapist loses interest completely and can't even get it up when you do this. She said she'd tried it and it worked. I know anecdotal evidence is not compelling, but in this case it is backed by a huge amount of psychological research on convicted rapists. The story she told me is consistent with the psychological profile of the average rapist. They want to hurt you, dominate you and force you to do things you don't want to do. And they want to see evidence of your suffering and unwillingness. That's their whole kick. That's why they pick victims who seem vulnerable and unlikely to fight very hard.

That`s certainly a profile of a rapist. Then again, you are assuming all rapists fall on the same profile. That is an extraordinary claim and you need extraordinary evidence for it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

My point is that rapists DO care about their victims' feelings. They WANT the tears, squirming, protestations, etc. They plan their crimes in advance 70% of the time in full knowledge that they are not going to make any effort to obtain consent.

So, even assuming that the 70% figure is correct/valid, that still leaves 30% of rapes that aren't planned or intentional beforehand. Surely, you must agree that 30% is not an insubstantial number, and certainly leaves a lot of room for many rapes that don't fall into a single, narrowly-defined scenario/cause/motivation?

 

[Debater Slayer]

sociopathic tendncies alone cant lead to sex either. They also aren`t a motivation.

So if you need your cause to be the only cause, you cant blame socipath for that. I understand any of them have moral codes, mostly so they dont feel too inhuman.

Rape happens when a number of factors coincide.

"About no one rapes unless", that would be similar to saying that the primary cause of all divorces is marriage. No one ever divorces without having been married. The reality is that while that may be shared with all divorces, there are a lot of marriages that dont end on divorce and being married alone would not be the cause of divorce (though you could list it as a cause).

Again, everytime you want to point at one single cause you will fail. Stuff has multiple causes. It`s the way stuff works.

Most people won't rob a bank at gunpoint if they don't have money. But it's fair to suggest that lack of money is a motivating factor in robbing a bank at gunpoint.

Most people would try to get a loan... ask friends and family... get a job... etc...

But the bank robber isn't "most people". He can't get what he wants, so he finds a way to take it. It's criminal, there's no justification for it.

I'll repeat this, there is no justification.

Why when offering a possible motivation does it get turned into an accusation of justification?

Similar to the bank robber being motivated by a(n extreme and/or desperate) lack of funds, the OP suggested that at least some rapists are motivated by a lack of sex. When he can't get what he wants legally, he'll find a way of getting it illegally.

At no point does this position try to excuse the rapist or place blame on the victim.

Since the arguments here seem to be the same, I'll respond to both of them together.

I didn't say that either one of you was trying to justify rape; I just think the argument that sexual desire alone can be a primary motivation for rape is flawed.

Also, I don't think comparing rape to car theft is an accurate analogy. A person who steals a car and one who legally buys a car both get the same thing in the end, albeit through different means; however, a person who rapes someone and a person who desires consensual sex do not get or desire the same thing. I don't feel like going out and actually raping someone when I have sexual urges, and most people don't either.

The same goes for the bank robbery analogy: A person who robs a bank and a person who doesn't both may desire to have money, but one of them doesn't have enough regard (if at all) for other people's feelings or well-being to prevent them from committing the robbery. This isn't like rape, as I explained above.

 

[Poisonshady313]

My point is that rapists DO care about their victims' feelings. They WANT the tears, squirming, protestations, etc. They plan their crimes in advance 70% of the time in full knowledge that they are not going to make any effort to obtain consent.

A famous prostitute's daughter-in-law once advised me that if I ever find myself in a situation I fear might turn into a rape, I should take the initiative. Act completely into it and take control of the situation. She claimed that an aspiring rapist loses interest completely and can't even get it up when you do this. She said she'd tried it and it worked. I know anecdotal evidence is not compelling, but in this case it is backed by a huge amount of psychological research on convicted rapists. The story she told me is consistent with the psychological profile of the average rapist. They want to hurt you, dominate you and force you to do things you don't want to do. And they want to see evidence of your suffering and unwillingness. That's their whole kick. That's why they pick victims who seem vulnerable and unlikely to fight very hard. Enthusiasm is like a bucket of ice water on the nads of your average rapist.

While it's true that rape requires an element of sadism, I think it's incorrect to say that sadism itself is the endgame of every rapist.

If an individual is desperate for sexual contact with someone other than his hand, can't pay for it, can't get consent, can't simply do without, he may in fact attempt to obtain sexual gratification without consent. He'll pick a vulnerable and unlikely to fight hard kind of a victim for the obvious reason that he wants to succeed in getting what he wants without either failing or incurring injury to himself. He'll plan his crimes for the obvious purpose of avoiding getting caught.

Your psychological profile might very well fit a serial rapist. But not all rapes are committed by serial rapists.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I didn't say that either one of you was trying to justify rape; I just think the argument that sexual desire alone can be a primary motivation for rape is flawed.

Why?

Also, I don't think comparing rape to car theft is an accurate analogy. A person who steals a car and one who legally buys a car both get the same thing in the end, albeit through different means; however, a person who rapes someone and a person who desires consensual sex do not get or desire the same thing.

There you go wrongly inserting the word "consensual" into the mix. A person who gets sex with consent and without consent want the same thing. SEX. A rapist isn't illegally obtaining consent. A rapist is illegally obtaining sex. Like a car thief illegally obtaining a car.

I don't feel like going out and actually raping someone when I have sexual urges, and most people don't either.

Most people don't feel like stealing a car when they want to go for a drive. But if someone wants something desperately enough and can't get it legally (or they feel it's too difficult), they'll do it illegally.

The same goes for the bank robbery analogy: A person who robs a bank and a person who doesn't both may desire to have money, but one of them doesn't have enough regard (if at all) for other people's feelings or well-being to prevent them from committing the robbery. This isn't like rape, as I explained above.

Did you explain it above? The bank robber's goal is to obtain money. His method is illegal. He may or may not end up killing someone in the process... but that wasn't necessarily the bank robber's intent or desire... He didn't want anyone to die. He just wanted the money.

 

[Alceste]

Um... no.

First of all, masturbation isn't illegal. Hot wiring a car that isn't yours is illegal. The moment you put the car in drive and accelerate, it's now theft.

But lets stick with carjacking for a moment. Wave a gun in front of a driver's face, telling them to get out of the car.

Was that done for the sake of intimidation? For the thrill of exerting power over another individual using the threat of violence? Or is it possible it was done to obtain that person's car?

What does a physical assault on another person Havre to do with stealing an object?

 

[Me Myself]

What does a physical assault on another person Havre to do with stealing an object?

Analogies consist on similar scenarios. The difference between "similar" and "the same thing" is that "similar" doesnt need it be "identical".

The similarity between both scenarios is that both use violence to get what they want:

The gunpoint theft is using threat and violence to steal the car.

The rapist may use knife point threats or a wide range of other physical forms of intimidations to

Spoiler: graphic

get the sensorial pleasure of putting his penis inside the vagina of the victim, grabbing her breasts, butt, etc and having a much more real sexual experience than that which he would be able to have with a sex doll or by masturbation

So in short the similarity of both scenarios is that the violence is not the goal, but the means to the end. The difference is that one wants a car and the other one wants sexual stimulation.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Why?

For the reasons I clarified in earlier posts in this thread, as well as reasons explained below.

There you go wrongly inserting the word "consensual" into the mix. A person who gets sex with consent and without consent want the same thing. SEX. A rapist isn't illegally obtaining consent. A rapist is illegally obtaining sex. Like a car thief illegally obtaining a car.

Most people don't feel like stealing a car when they want to go for a drive. But if someone wants something desperately enough and can't get it legally (or they feel it's too difficult), they'll do it illegally.

Did you explain it above? The bank robber's goal is to obtain money. His method is illegal. He may or may not end up killing someone in the process... but that wasn't necessarily the bank robber's intent or desire... He didn't want anyone to die. He just wanted the money.

• I think "sex" on its own is too broad. This is also part of the reason I think the comparison to car theft and bank robberies is inaccurate: I don't believe that deriving sexual pleasure is completely independent of what the other person feels in the process. In a car theft or bank robbery, we're talking about obtaining objects, not deriving pleasure from a process that involves the suffering of another person all along. I don't see how sexual activity with another person can be entirely divorced from how they feel in the process at all.

• The bank robber might have not wanted anyone to die, and they might murder someone if it meant getting what they wanted. However, a rapist completely ensures that the person they rape will suffer when they penetrate them against their will. It's certain that the victim will be traumatized because of rape, and that is known beforehand... unlike the bank robbery scenario you brought up, where there's a chance that the robber might not murder anyone if they don't have to.

A person can't rape someone and then say that they "didn't want to hurt them"; the act itself is inherently and clearly harmful to another person. Doing it necessitates harming another person in the process.

 

[Me Myself]

For the reasons I clarified in earlier posts in this thread, as well as reasons explained below.



• I think "sex" on its own is too broad. This is also part of the reason I think the comparison to car theft and bank robberies is inaccurate: I don't believe that deriving sexual pleasure is completely independent of what the other person feels in the process. In a car theft or bank robbery, we're talking about obtaining objects, not deriving pleasure from a process that involves the suffering of another person all along. I don't see how sexual activity with another person can be entirely divorced from how they feel in the process at all.

• The bank robber might have not wanted anyone to die, and they might murder someone if it meant getting what they wanted. However, a rapist completely ensures that the person they rape will suffer when they penetrate them against their will. It's certain that the victim will be traumatized because of rape, and that is known beforehand... unlike the bank robbery scenario you brought up, where there's a chance that the robber might not murder anyone if they don't have to.

A person can't rape someone and then say that they "didn't want to hurt them"; the act itself is inherently and clearly harmful to another person. Doing it necessitates harming another person in the process.

But you are missing the point. A person without empathy is not concerned about the wellbeing of the other. While most rapists may like that the victim suffers, a psychopath may very well just want the sexual stimuli of being able to grab a real body, penetrate a real body, etc.

I dont understand why its so hard to get that some people dont give a **** : /

I mean sure, its completly alien to us, but its real. We know people completely alien to us exist , right?

Think about the women that drug men after having sex with them so to rob them of their kidneys and organs. They dont give a **** about how the person feel after it. They just want to sell an organ.

Is that a more understandable analogy?

 

[Alceste]

But you are missing the point. A person without empathy is not concerned about the wellbeing of the other. While most rapists may like that the victim suffers, a psychopath may very well just want the sexual stimuli of being able to grab a real body, penetrate a real body, etc.

I dont understand why its so hard to get that some people dont give a **** : /

I mean sure, its completly alien to us, but its real. We know people completely alien to us exist , right?

Think about the women that drug men after having sex with them so to rob them of their kidneys and organs. They dont give a **** about how the person feel after it. They just want to sell an organ.

Is that a more understandable analogy?

Rapists do not have a higher instance of sociopathy or mental illness than the general population, according to the "rape myths" link I posted ages ago.

They know the act will cause suffering, and the suffering is what they want. Exactly like someone who beats up a homosexual. They CARE that the victim suffers. The victim is SUPPOSED to suffer. Rapists are exactly like people who beat up a child or an elderly person, or schoolyard bullies. If the victim doesn't suffer, what's the point of the violence in the first place? If it isn't the suffering that you get off on, why bother getting your end away in a fashion that you are fully conscious necessarily inflicts great suffering? Considering the options - masturbation, prostitution, consensual sex, sex with a sheep, etc. WHY BOTHER hurting a person to get sex if you're not into hurting people?

FYI, most sociopaths are not violent. They simply lack empathy.

 

[Me Myself]

Rapists do not have a higher instance of sociopathy or mental illness than the general population, according to the "rape myths" link I posted ages ago.

Does it have lower instances of such? because if it doesnt, then they exist.

They know the act will cause suffering, and the suffering is what they want. Exactly like someone who beats up a homosexual. They CARE that the victim suffers. Exactly like someone who beats up a child or an elderly person. If the victim doesn't suffer, what's the point of the violence in the first place? If it isn't the suffering that you get off on, why bother getting your end away in a fashion that you are fully conscious necessarily inflicts great suffering?

FYI, most sociopaths are not violent. They simply lack empathy.

I never said they were. As you said, they lack empathy. I always said: if you dont have empathy, and you dont have a moral code that impede you from doing this then it becomes a "cold" decision of I get what I want and lets see if I can get away with it.

The fact that they lack empathy would mean that the emotional disposition of the victim would have no effect on their sexual gratification, either by adding to it or by substracting to it.

Also as Kilgore said, a person having sex with another where the other removes withdrawal, could continue sex, thereby starting rape. This would likely be an effect of lack of care for the other person`s feelings or more care for their own sex drive in that moment. Most people wouldnt do it, but some would.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Is there a similar analogy for supporters of the OP's argument that includes a human being rather than comparing it to robbing a bank?

Also, does prison rape have the same propensity to be sexualized?

 

[Me Myself]

Is there a similar analogy for supporters of the OP's argument that includes a human being rather than comparing it to robbing a bank?

Also, does prison rape have the same propensity to be sexualized?

No idea. For one aspect I think it does have a lot to do with domination there, but I would also think sexual gratification is still one of the goals. Maybe for some primary the sexual maybe from some primary the domination. I honestly cant know.

I gave one just recently.

Women that have sex with men, drug them and take their organs away to sell them. They didnt took the organs to hurt the person, that was just a colateral, they took the organs cause they wanted to sell them.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No idea. For one aspect I think it does have a lot to do with domination there, but I would also think sexual gratification is still one of the goals. Maybe for some primary the sexual maybe from some primary the domination. I honestly cant know.

I'd like to see any studies that suggest that prison rape is ever sexualized. Or same sex rape. Or child rape. We're discussing sexualized rape with narrowly focusing the young adult or teen male-on-female rape.

I gave one just recently.

Women that have sex with men, drug them and take their organs away to sell them. They didnt took the organs to hurt the person, that was just a colateral, they took the organs cause they wanted to sell them.

Are women so turned on they can't help but want to steal the man's organs?

 

[Me Myself]

I'd like to see any studies that suggest that prison rape is ever sexualized. Or same sex rape. Or child rape. We're discussing sexualized rape with narrowly focusing the young adult or teen male-on-female rape.

Considering inmates dont have viagra, they are certainly being aroused.

I would assume sex to be a secondary motivation in most cases, but I cant know. An extraordinary claim, like saying it has nothing to do ever would be the one needing extraordinary evidence. do you have such? notice the requirements in bold.

Are women so turned on they can't help but want to steal the man's organs?

Yes, lust for money