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Razan Al-Najjar: Palestinian medic who saved lives shot dead by Israeli sniper

Shad

Veteran Member
Is this seriously the first time you've heard of this rule, or is this just generic knee jerk, throw anything and hope, "Israel, right or wrong!" rhetoric?

Seems like you never considered your lack of a citation would create a situation in which someone would ask you specifically what laws you are talking about. I asked for a citation, nothing more. And no I knew about laws regarding medical personal before asking. You didn't even cite the proper Articles never read anything.

Art 36. The religious, medical and hospital personnel of hospital ships and their crews shall be respected and protected; they may not be captured during the time they are in the service of the hospital ship, whether or not there are wounded and sick on board.

So lets see evidence she was a member of a hospital ship's personnel.

Art 37. The religious, medical and hospital personnel assigned to the medical or spiritual care of the persons designated in Articles 12 and 13 shall, if they fall into the hands of the enemy, be respected and protected; they may continue to carry out their duties as long as this is necessary for the care of the wounded and sick. They shall afterwards be sent back as soon as the Commander-in-Chief, under whose authority they are, considers it practicable. They may take with them, on leaving the ship, their personal property.


Art 12. (Not applicable to her) Members of the armed forces and other persons mentioned in the following Article, who are at sea and who are wounded, sick or shipwrecked, shall be respected and protected in all circumstances, it being understood that the term “shipwreck” means shipwreck from any cause and includes forced landings at sea by or from aircraft.

Such persons shall be treated humanely and cared for by the Parties to the conflict in whose power they may be, without any adverse distinction founded on sex, race, nationality, religion, political opinions, or any other similar criteria. Any attempts upon their lives, or violence to their persons, shall be strictly prohibited; in particular, they shall not be murdered or exterminated, subjected to torture or to biological experiments; they shall not wilfully be left without medical assistance and care, nor shall conditions exposing them to contagion or infection be created.

Art 13. The present Convention shall apply to the wounded, sick and shipwrecked at sea belonging to the following categories:
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
(3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a Government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany.
(5) Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory who, on the approach of the enemy, spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
 
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Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
But did it happen?
Did she get hit by mistake? Did someone from Hamas shove her into the line of fire for the media coverage?
I don't know, but I don't trust Hamas.
Tom
If it were a one off rare case, I'd give the Israelis the benefit of the doubt. However, there have been other cases of medics on the Palestinian side recieving sniper fire just resently, and we have the words of the surviving medics themselves to corroborate it in at least one case. How many times does something have to happen before we stop treating it as accidental? Especially since, you know, it's an accident combatants are supposed to try extra hard to avoid in the first place...
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Seems like you never considered your lack of a citation would create a situation in which someone would ask you specifically what laws you are talking about. I asked for a citation, nothing more. And no I knew about laws regarding medical personal before asking
Ok. As a politically and socially conscious person, I assumed you would have some vague conception of LOAC. I apologise for assuming common knowledge.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Ok. As a politically and socially conscious person, I assumed you would have some vague conception of LOAC. I apologise for assuming common knowledge.

Hilarious considering you never cited the correct laws on your own. Look at my post I edited it by merely citing the number minus the Articles. The Article you didn't cite was 4th and 1st which shows the correct citations for the laws. Especially Article 1 chapter 5.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
If it were a one off rare case, I'd give the Israelis the benefit of the doubt. However, there have been other cases of medics on the Palestinian side recieving sniper fire just resently, and we have the words of the surviving medics themselves to corroborate it in at least one case. How many times does something have to happen before we stop treating it as accidental?
Hamas has a well established history of lying to the media to support their genocidal agenda.

Don't get me wrong, Zionists have committed some atrocities. I don't buy either one of the narratives in their entirety.
But I do find that Hamas is much more willing to sacrifice innocent people for political purposes than the Israelis.
Strong evidence for that can be found right here on RF.
Tom
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Prior to joining RF, I had never been in a place where the Zionist, Palestinian, and Peace narratives were all together on a level playing field. My sympathy for the Palestinians has taken quite a dive.

One reason is the same one that causes me to doubt the Hamas claim that IDF targeted a medic. More than once, here on RF, claims about IDF malfeasance have been made only to be demonstrated to be distortions. Two that come to mind involved "children".
One was about IDF celebrating the sniper shooting of a Palestinian child. It turned out to be the targeting of an 18 y/o throwing gasoline bombs.
Another claimed that IDF targeted sleeping children. Turned out that they were targeting the cache of missiles in the basement of the building. They gave the Palestinians warning through an NGO. Instead of getting the children out of the building, they left them to die. Then cranked up the media, which appears to have been their intent by housing children on the floor above the weapons in the first place.

You can read about this for yourself, right here on RF. I believe that our member Matemkar started both threads.
Tom


So you question based off what other posters said.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
So you question based off what other posters said.
Nope.
Based off what other posters linked to.
And that was just here on RF, where you can see the evidence for yourself. You don't have to trust me or my sources. You can look for yourself at what other posters linked to as evidence.
Sorry if that interferes with your victimhood and stuff.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Ok. As a politically and socially conscious person, I assumed you would have some vague conception of LOAC. I apologise for assuming common knowledge.
I do have a hardcore understanding of Law of Armed Engagement. I am a hardcore ProLifer.
But it doesn't appear that Hamas does. They have put missile launchers on top of hospitals and then complained that IDF targeted hospitals.
Tom
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
"Published in March by Physicians for Social Responsibility, the study, conducted by a team that included some Nobel Prize winners, determined that at least 1.3 million people have died as a result of war since Sept.11, 2001, but the real figure might be as high as two million. The study was an attempt to “close the gaps” in existing research, including studies like the Iraq Body Count,” which puts the number of violent deaths in that country at about 219,000 since 2003, based on media reports of the time period."

Do The Math: Global War On Terror Has Killed 4 Million Muslims Or More

I've seen estimates has high a 8 million. I don't even like the rag heads. But when you drop 35,000 bombs on the Middle East every year for no reason at some point it becomes a war crime.

More than 200 civilians killed in suspected U.S. airstrike in Iraq

What are you even on about.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has claimed the lives of ~25.000 people. And that from both sides combined.

Israel had absolutely nothing to do with the US "war on terror".


The way Israelis do not like Arabs seems to me to be more than just contemporary.

Haha 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.
Meanwhile almost all the Jews have been purged from Arab countries apart from Morocco.

But of course we do not like them. Life can be so simple.



You’re a heartless person

Yeah expecting evidence for wild claims sure is heartless. Can't we just all be lead by our emotions??? :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(


I’m sure if someone put a bullet in a friend you loved the way Israelis defense forces did that young girl your tune would be different

Like I am still waiting for the evidence that it was done by a sniper that wanted to kill her.
I am sure you can find it.


I’m so glad you’re not representative of the many Israeli Jews.

I am sure that apart from the Gideon Levy crowd most Israelis don't want their country invaded.
But you probably know more Israelis than I do.



Not.


I just cannot wait until the Christian fundies that support Israel die off and actual real progressives can take charge and take support away from Israel including our weapons that goes both to Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Most weapons used by Israel are made in Israel.


I sometimes wonder if you can actually tie your own geology to the actual tribe of Israel

@metis @Tumah @Rival @Jayhawker Soule @RabbiO @rosends :eyes:



LOAC is still a thing,

So about that ingenious plan of surrounding your actual soldiers with a wall of medics, why has no one ever done this before?
It seems so basic. So simple. So easy.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Nope.
Based off what other posters linked to.
And that was just here on RF, where you can see the evidence for yourself. You don't have to trust me or my sources. You can look for yourself at what other posters linked to as evidence.
Sorry if that interferes with your victimhood and stuff.
Tom

I personally don't care what you think, because basically it doesn't make you right.

-Middle Finger
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
You are a credit to your race.
Tom

"A credit to my race...."

You mean, the human species or to my human ethnic demographic?

Because you know, the phrase "a credit to my race" is usually said by idiotic white supremacist considering the term "race" is not accepted scientifically...Surely for one who is ethnically and that which is stereotypical said to have such an high IQ, I'm sure you didn't think that, did you?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
So about that ingenious plan of surrounding your actual soldiers with a wall of medics, why has no one ever done this before?
It seems so basic. So simple. So easy.

As international law would place fault on the medics if done willingly or the Palestine government as a signatory of international laws for using hostages.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I am sure that apart from the Gideon Levy crowd most Israelis don't want their country invaded.
But you probably know more Israelis than I do.
And I'm sure that most Israelis, including "the Gideon Levy crowd," don't want their neighbors stabbed or their elementary schools mortared or ...
... and none of that justifies the death of this young paramedic.​

Anyone who denies Israel's right to exist is my enemy. That in no way lessens the fact that any Middle East perspective that fails to acknowledge the Palestinian right to self determination and embrace the truth that Palestinian lives matter is little more than nativist jingoism in search of justification.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Anyone who denies Israel's right to exist is my enemy. That in no way lessens the fact that any Middle East perspective that fails to acknowledge the Palestinian right to self determination and embrace the truth that Palestinian lives matter is little more than nativist jingoism in search of justification.

I do not believe in such a right for any nation, including my own. Does this make me your enemy? If the UN invaded/liberated NK would you argue it has a right to exist? A right carries implication beyond sovereignty but international politics.
 

Shad

Veteran Member

Could you answer the questions? I am interested in your answers regarding those that do not agree with such a right but do not wish for the destruction of Israel.

It seems like an extreme view but I wanted to see if my interpretation is correct.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Could you answer the questions? I am interested in your answers regarding those that do not agree with such a right but do not wish for the destruction of Israel.

It seems like an extreme view but I wanted to see if my interpretation is correct.
Sorry.

It is interesting that you claim "a right carries implication beyond sovereignty but international politics." And what, if any, is the implication of denying such rights? Denied by whom? Using what instruments of oppression? For what purpose?

Yes, the people of NK deserve the right to self determination.

And, no, you are not my enemy, but only because there is a difference between dismissing a right and denying it. The former simply reflects petit bourgeois sophistry while the latter validates oppression.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
So about that ingenious plan of surrounding your actual soldiers with a wall of medics, why has no one ever done this before?
It seems so basic. So simple. So easy.
Is this your argument? Shooting civilians and medics is OK because you are belittling a fundamental LOAC concept?
 
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