Reason for Faith

[blackout]

Cool. That must have been some brand of "Christianity" that nearly killed you! I'm glad you're happy anyway. There is a story of an atheist who came upon one of the Fiji (I believe) Islands and there was a tribal chief with a Bible in his hut. He made some comment about it and the Chief pointed to a rock and told him that's where they smashed stranger's heads in, and pointed to an oven and said that's where we cooked them for supper, before we became Christians. Darwin even praised the results of Christian Missionaries and said if someone was shipwrecked and landed on a foreign shore, he'd better pray the missionaries had been there before. I know that's not what you asked, but I just see all the darkness and suffering in other lands like India, N. Korea, China, Myanmar, (much of Asia) and in other places where people suffer and are oppressed by false religions and atheistic governments and demon worshiping priests. Christianity is light and love shining into the darkness of these terrible places.

Well that's "some brand" of paganism you're talking about there.

 

[blackout]

Cool. That must have been some brand of "Christianity" that nearly killed you! I'm glad you're happy anyway.

It's very typical of christians to insinuate that christians who left christianity,
did not follow the right, or true kind of christianity,
or (and more commonly) were never really christians to begin with.

It's lazy. and presumptuous.
and it doesn't change what was actually true.
No matter how much you imagine it must have been so.

 

[javajo]

It's very typical of christians to insinuate that christians who left christianity,
did not follow the right, or true kind of christianity,
or (and more commonly) were never really christians to begin with.

It's lazy. and presumptuous.
and it doesn't change what was actually true.
No matter how much you imagine it must have been so.

Do forgive me. Often when people describe what they went through I find they were bound up in some strict, legalistic version with all these unrealistic expectations and rules thrust upon them is all. I would never believe you "were never really a Christian to begin with". Actually, since you did trust Christ as Saviour and were freely and eternally saved to the uttermost, I believe you still are saved especially since you walked away from something that was obviously very bad and wrong. That comes only from the Holy Spirit, I believe. (I've done the same thing before). Anyway, so sorry for my laziness and presumptuousness, I should have talked a bit more with you first. God bless.

 

[blackout]

Do forgive me. Often when people describe what they went through I find they were bound up in some strict, legalistic version with all these unrealistic expectations and rules thrust upon them is all. I would never believe you "were never really a Christian to begin with". Actually, since you did trust Christ as Saviour and were freely and eternally saved to the uttermost, I believe you still are saved especially since you walked away from something that was obviously very bad and wrong. That comes only from the Holy Spirit, I believe. (I've done the same thing before). Anyway, so sorry for my laziness and presumptuousness, I should have talked a bit more with you first. God bless.

In the end, my own christianity was so completely non legalistic and non doctrinal
and Self defined by personal encounter,
that not a single mainstream christian I knew, of any denomination, would agree
that I was in fact (a) christian.
If I had a dime for every time a "fellow christian" said I wasn't.

So finally I said, "fine, I'm not".
and I dropped the cumbersome label.
I haven't missed it a day since.

I found that if the rules of christianity didn't impoverish, depress and kill me,
as I lived by them,
then christians would,
as I didn't.

no win, and definately not worth the effort.

I have retained, and will always have with me
the experience of my personal epiphany,
and my heightened experience of the kingdom teachings.
(as I understand and interpret them)
The rest of it no longer interests me at all.
Other things do however,
(ie, not "christian" things)
so I go with those.

oh... and I live happy. True to mySelf. :rainbow1:

 

[javajo]

In the end, my own christianity was so completely non legalistic and non doctrinal
and Self defined by personal encounter,
that not a single mainstream christian of any denomination would agree
that I was in fact christian.
If I had a dime for every time a christian said I wasn't.

So finally I said, "fine, I'm not".
and I dropped the cumbersome label.
I haven't missed it a day since.

I found that if the rules of christianity didn't impoverish, depress and kill me,
as I lived by them,
then christians would,
as I didn't.

no win, and definately not worth the effort.

I have retained, and will always have with me
the experience of my personal epiphany,
and my heightened experience of the kingdom teachings.
The rest of it no longer interests me at all.
Other things do however,
so I go with those.

I hear ya. That's like me and my daughter. She's saved, but shortly after she hit puberty she realized she was gay and came out in 7th grade. She got bullied real bad (some of the worst were 'Christians') and had to go to school online at home. She's in 10th grade now and doing great, the apple of my eye. Well, even though we accepted it right away, I was like, where can we find a church around here that will accept us? We're still working on that one. I've been a bit lazy about it (but not presumptuous). Fortunately we found support online (SisterFriends Together is pretty cool, found it just recently), but the whole thing is a blight on the church in general. We're just like, oh well if you can't handle it, deal with it, ya know?

 

[blackout]

I hear ya. That's like me and my daughter. She's saved, but shortly after she hit puberty she realized she was gay and came out in 7th grade. She got bullied real bad (some of the worst were 'Christians') and had to go to school online at home. She's in 10th grade now and doing great, the apple of my eye. Well, even though we accepted it right away, I was like, where can we find a church around here that will accept us? We're still working on that one. I've been a bit lazy about it (but not presumptuous). Fortunately we found support online (SisterFriends Together is pretty cool, found it just recently), but the whole thing is a blight on the church in general. We're just like, oh well if you can't handle it, deal with it, ya know?

There's always UU.

You can go there and Be Who You Are.
Christian (your way), Pagan, Athiest...

and they are VERY actively supportive of the GLBTQ community.

I'll bet it would be a really great place for your daughter.
If you don't find love and acceptance there,
I don't know where you will find it.

I'm glad for your daughter that your version of christianity
had not estranged you from her.
And I'm glad for you too.
You all need each other.

 

[javajo]

There's always UU.

You can go there and Be Who You Are.
Christian (your way), Pagan, Athiest...

and they are VERY actively supportive of the GLBTQ community.

I'll bet it would be a really great place for your daughter.
If you don't find love and acceptance there,
I don't know where you will find it.

I'm glad for your daughter that your version of christianity
had not estranged you from her.
And I'm glad for you too.
You all need each other.

Thanks. Yeah, its like either UU, Episcopal, or maybe Methodist. I've gone to a laid back contemporary service at the Methodist Church, they're pretty cool, (their sign outside has "salvation is not achieved, its received", been on there all summer). We almost went today, but we are currently "up all night, sleep all day". That changes in 2 weeks--back to work for me. Tomorrow she and I plan to eat supper at my friend's Friendship Baptist Church just for fun even though we'll be the only white people, but they're real cool, so. My friend is retiring this year, but we've worked together for years and he is very cool with my daughter, so it should be fun. Ok, I'm rambling. Yeah, I'm proud to be her dad, we have a lot of fun together. 'Nite!

 

[ryanam]

As an anti-theist, I'd like to share some views from the other side of the coin.

The reason that I believe what I believe is because, based on known and proven history and my own experiences with what I see every day, there is nothing else left to believe.

As you're all aware, atheism isn't about believing something, it's about not believing something. We all know this, because we're all atheists in one way or another. We all know what it's like to not believe in something. The tooth-fairy for example, or the belief in Thor or Wotan (for most of us).

My reasoning for being atheist stems, I think, from the the basic principal of what a mono-theist has to believe. Simply saying most of this stuff out loud, would insult a lot of people. This is because the very vocalization of what believers believe does sound as though it's being mocked. To an intelligent, logical person brought into existence 5 minutes ago, it would seem like insanity.

Our race, as we know it, is between 100,000 and 200,000 old. Let's say that for argument's sake that it's 100,000 years old. In order to be a Christian you HAVE to believe that for 98,000 years, all the pain and suffering our race went through, even just 10,000 years ago (most people dying in child birth, average life expectancy around 25-30, people dying of diseases from bacteria that they didn't know existed, famine, drought, natural disasters (all punishments as far as they were concerned)) was watched by God with complete indifference

Then 2,000 years ago he decided that enough was enough... it's time to intervene. And the best way to that was to condemn a man to a human sacrifice somewhere in the less literate parts of the middle-east (Not China where people can read and study evidence).

Don't quote me on the exact details of that but you obviously get the point. I don't believe it and I still can't get my head around the fact that a thinking person can believe it.

Where then, do my morals come from? They come, partly from genetics but mostly from the manner in which I was raised and the experiences I've had in life. I consider myself a decent and moral person. I've never committed a crime worth mentioning and if *IF* living a moral and decent life by my own standards in the only world we know that exists (the material one) sends me to hell, then so be it.

People will get defensive and start nit-picking on facts... don't. I don't care. You obviously get the gist.

No offense intended.

 

[Riverwolf]

Right, and Jesus teaches we can have life more abundantly despite hardship or persecution.

"More abundantly"? What does that even mean?

But they must do something to attain these, we have our life from Christ.

But you must do something to attain that life, no?

 

[javajo]

"More abundantly"? What does that even mean?

Our life has meaning, purpose, we have a destination and a God who loves us. We have peace, love, joy unlike others who don't know why they are here or where they are going, if anywhere, and who have no hope.

But you must do something to attain that life, no?

Salvation is not achieved, its received. Eternal life, abundant life, is a free gift given from God to us.

 

[javajo]

In order to be a Christian you HAVE to believe that for 98,000 years...

No you don't.

 

[Riverwolf]

Our life has meaning, purpose, we have a destination and a God who loves us. We have peace, love, joy unlike others who don't know why they are here or where they are going, if anywhere, and who have no hope.

Sounds very much like how Gaudiya Vaishnavas are right now.

Salvation is not achieved, its received. Eternal life, abundant life, is a free gift given from God to us.

So we all have it, regardless?

 

[Quagmire]

Reason for Faith

Sounds like a fair trade.

 

[Thief]

I didn't develop my faith without reason.

 

[javajo]

Sounds very much like how Gaudiya Vaishnavas are right now.

Good for them. I hope its not a false sense of life, as its not our faith, but the object of our faith that saves.

So we all have it, regardless?

No. It has to be received.

 

[Riverwolf]

Good for them. I hope its not a false sense of life, as its not our faith, but the object of our faith that saves.

From what I've heard, they're some of the happiest, most joyful, and most devoted people I've heard about. A Gaudiya Vaishnava's... heck, ANY bhakta's, very essence is joyful love.

No. It has to be received.

You mean the gesture was given, but we have to take it.

Why did we need it in the first place?

 

[javajo]

From what I've heard, they're some of the happiest, most joyful, and most devoted people I've heard about. A Gaudiya Vaishnava's... heck, ANY bhakta's, very essence is joyful love.

Cool, I'll have to check them out. I am reminded of, God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34b-35

You mean the gesture was given, but we have to take it.

Why did we need it in the first place?

This is what I believe. The Bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That the penalty of sin is death. It says how Christ paid that penalty for us all by dying on the cross. Now all who trust him that he did that are freely and eternally saved.

 

[Riverwolf]

Cool, I'll have to check them out. I am reminded of, God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:34b-35

This is what I believe. The Bible says all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That the penalty of sin is death. It says how Christ paid that penalty for us all by dying on the cross. Now all who trust him that he did that are freely and eternally saved.

Yeah, and that's not something that I can believe.

 

[javajo]

Yeah, and that's not something that I can believe.

That all have sinned? Ask anyone in any country if they've ever done anything wrong, they will laugh and answer, "of course", every time.

 

[idea]

What are the reasons for your belief in your faith and God?

Faith precedes knowledge in all things.

If we don't have faith in granny's cooking, we would never eat it and know it tastes good.
If we don't have faith in a university, we would never study there...
If we don't have faith in a bank, we would not put our money there
If we don't have faith in our car, we won't drive it...

In anything, first you have faith, then you experiment, then you consider the results of that experiment, then you gain knowledge. Faith proceeds the experiment.

Some experiments are trickier than others... can't learn to play the piano over night, some things take a lifetime to know...