Reason for Faith

[javajo]

thank you that is a very nice thought ,
particularly "spiritual death " being the price we pay , I will reflect on that , the result of sin is spiritual death ?
I agree with"gods great love and mercy" yes I too am happy for that .

"THE WONDERFULL THING IS HE LOVED US SO MUCH THAT HE PAID FOR OUR SINS HIMSELF "

that is a nice explanation

Thank-you. That was very kind. Here is a passage that talks about the spiritual death idea:

But God loves us deeply. He is full of mercy. So he gave us new life because of what Christ has done. He gave us life even when we were dead in sin. God's grace has saved you. God raised us up with Christ. He has seated us with him in his heavenly kingdom because we belong to Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-6)
At one time you were dead in your sins. Your sinful nature was not circumcised. But God gave you new life together with Christ. He forgave us all of our sins. (Colossians 2:13)

I like that we can know that we have been made alive and all our sins are forgiven. God already considers us as seated with him in heaven. All for free.

 

[ryanam]

I know what you mean. I can only share what I believe. I take the Bible at what it says, and some things are very difficult. Another word for it is that the result of sin is death. It is physical, spiritual death and eternal separation from God. God told Adam and Eve that the day they eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they would die. When they ate, they lost their immortality and began to die physically. They died spiritually toward God as well, although he restored them. To be eternally separated from God who is life, who gives life, is eternal death, but you're conscious. Very scary stuff to be sure. But I've experienced it, sin always leads to death and destruction.

I don't have to believe we've been here for 100,000 years to be a Christian, I just have to believe in Christ.

The 100,000 years figure was, as I said, an estimate. It IS (as proven) in the hundreds of thousands of years range. How did I know that you were going to start debating the COMPLETELY wrong part of my point?

The number of years is irrelevant. The pain, suffering and indifference is the point. No views on that though, I see.

 

[ryanam]

I'm not being aggressive or rude, but if you are not a Christian, why do you think your view should have any authority over what a Christian does or does not believe, and if they do not believe something like this, then they are not a Christian?

I've never understood why non-adherents of one religion tell adherents of that religion what they do or do not believe. I've seen this done with Buddhists claiming that Hinduism as well.

I'm sorry... you're going to have to make this clear then, rather than becoming defensive.

Is this not inherent in what a Christian believes? Regardless of how long humans have been around for, God's revelation was in the form of a gruesome human sacrifice to a bunch of peasants. Up until that point (and beyond, actually) humans had lived, enduring untold pain and suffering at the hands of an indifferent God for many tens of thousands of years.

FORGET the fine details. You MUST understand the point.

Which part of this does a Christian not believe?

 

[Breathe]

I'm sorry... you're going to have to make this clear then, rather than becoming defensive.

I'm not defensive. I have no reason to be, Christianity's doctrine holds no spiritual significance for me. I'm making a very valid point, however, about people who do not believe it thinking they know better than those who do.

Is this not inherent in what a Christian believes? Regardless of how long humans have been around for, God's revelation was in the form of a gruesome human sacrifice to a bunch of peasants. Up until that point (and beyond, actually) humans had lived, enduring untold pain and suffering at the hands of an indifferent God for many tens of thousands of years.

You forget the whole of the Tanakh: lots of sacrifices for sins and such there. Within Christian theology, after all, God has been there from the very beginning.

I'm not going to do Christian apologetics, since it's not my faith.

 

[Thief]

The 100,000 years figure was, as I said, an estimate. It IS (as proven) in the hundreds of thousands of years range. How did I know that you were going to start debating the COMPLETELY wrong part of my point?

The number of years is irrelevant. The pain, suffering and indifference is the point. No views on that though, I see.

Blaming God?

God gave Man dominion.
Therefore...it is Man that allows the pain and suffering.

 

[Thief]

Thank-you. That was very kind. Here is a passage that talks about the spiritual death idea:

But God loves us deeply. He is full of mercy. So he gave us new life because of what Christ has done. He gave us life even when we were dead in sin. God's grace has saved you. God raised us up with Christ. He has seated us with him in his heavenly kingdom because we belong to Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-6)
At one time you were dead in your sins. Your sinful nature was not circumcised. But God gave you new life together with Christ. He forgave us all of our sins. (Colossians 2:13)

I like that we can know that we have been made alive and all our sins are forgiven. God already considers us as seated with him in heaven. All for free.

There is no such thing as 'card blanc'.

 

[ryanam]

Blaming God?

God gave Man dominion.
Therefore...it is Man that allows the pain and suffering.

No. That would be insane. Man is responsible. We don't need a middle man to point the finger... you're making it more complicated than it needs to be.

So God gave man x therefore man allows y? x being the evil and y being the result of that evil? Of course... how silly of me.

We, then, were created sick and ordered, on pain of death to become well again.

Some design.

Cannot be believed by a thinking person.

 

[ryanam]

Originally Posted by Thief
Blaming God?

God gave Man dominion.
Therefore...it is Man that allows the pain and suffering.

And out of interest... How do you know God gave man dominion? I have a feeling the answer is going to be something in the region of 'Well God gave man everything, didn't he?'.

 

[jeffrey2011]

. I believe salvation is not achieved by anything we do over time, but it is a gift that is received so anyone may be saved and be a child of God. This is why I am happy, too because of God's great love and mercy. .

:yes: Yeah. Totally. We learnt that salvation is a race though. If you fall (sin), you must get back up ( repent and get on with life). Those fall and dont get up, are the ones which lose their salvation. Yes, they face spirutual death.


And for the initial question, the Bible gives the answer, clearly.
"Taste and see that the Lord is good."

 

[ratikala]

What are the reasons for your belief in your faith and God?

dear antagonists ,

the original question was simply (I assume) asking those with faith what reason they had for holding their beleif ?

why do dissbelivers feel the need to comment when they have no apparent faith to discuss ?

if my self and others of different faiths can discuss without being judgemental, then why ? can you not equaly live and let live ?

 

[javajo]

The 100,000 years figure was, as I said, an estimate. It IS (as proven) in the hundreds of thousands of years range. How did I know that you were going to start debating the COMPLETELY wrong part of my point?

The number of years is irrelevant. The pain, suffering and indifference is the point. No views on that though, I see.

Hundreds of thousands of years has not been proven to me, so I don't think pain and suffering has gone on that long and will not go on much longer and I do not believe God is indifferent.

There is no such thing as 'card blanc'.

Please explain.

Those fall and dont get up, are the ones which lose their salvation. Yes, they face spirutual death.

I don't believe that way, I believe God does the saving and God does the keeping.

 

[Thief]

God gave Man dominion as stated in Chapter One of Genesis.

There is no card blanc.
You will be held to the things you have said and done.

 

[javajo]

God gave Man dominion as stated in Chapter One of Genesis.

There is no card blanc.
You will be held to the things you have said and done.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10

 

[Thief]

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 1 John 4:10

The doctrine of scapegoating is a false doctrine.

 

[javajo]

The doctrine of scapegoating is a false doctrine.

That's not doctrine, that's scripture.

 

[ryanam]

dear antagonists ,

the original question was simply (I assume) asking those with faith what reason they had for holding their beleif ?

why do dissbelivers feel the need to comment when they have no apparent faith to discuss ?

if my self and others of different faiths can discuss without being judgemental, then why ? can you not equaly live and let live ?

Because every time I read the newspaper or watch the news, I have to be insulted and offended every day by the theocratic encroachments on free society by cults like the ones we're discussing.

Additionally, the questions I asked were simply to further educate myself in the way the mindset of a believer works. When a non-believer asks those questions in such a direct manner, it does seem like we're being judgmental, belittling or offensive because that's just how it sounds.

As I said, in my first post, no offense intended.

 

[ryanam]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanam
The 100,000 years figure was, as I said, an estimate. It IS (as proven) in the hundreds of thousands of years range. How did I know that you were going to start debating the COMPLETELY wrong part of my point?

The number of years is irrelevant. The pain, suffering and indifference is the point. No views on that though, I see.

Originally Posted by javajo Hundreds of thousands of years has not been proven to me, so I don't think pain and suffering has gone on that long and will not go on much longer and I do not believe God is indifferent.

I would suggest you read some literature on biological sciences and the study of human evolution.

Give this a read though.

nsf.gov - National Science Foundation (NSF) News - New Clues Add 40,000 Years to Age of Human Species - US National Science Foundation (NSF)
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Age of ancient humans reassessed
The Oldest Homo Sapiens: Fossils Push Human Emergence Back To 195,000 Years Ago

The fact that you "don't believe it" doesn't make the evidence any less valuable. You're beginning to sound like a broken record with the length of time. It doesn't matter if it was 98,000 years, 10,000 years or 2,000 years it's still proven suffering beyond anything we can imagine. And for what?

And what makes you think it's not going to continue?

 

[Thief]

That's not doctrine, that's scripture.

Either way...scapegoating doesn't work.

 

[Riverwolf]

Because every time I read the newspaper or watch the news, I have to be insulted and offended every day by the theocratic encroachments on free society by cults like the ones we're discussing.

And I'm constantly insulted and offended by Twilight's inexplicable popularity. What's your point?

Besides, what cult are we discussing? (...and, for that matter, how would you define that now-worthless term?)

 

[ratikala]

Because every time I read the newspaper or watch the news, I have to be insulted and offended every day by the theocratic encroachments on free society by cults like the ones we're discussing.

dear ryanam

if you feel insulted and offended by what you read in the newspapers , stop reading them !if the news offends you ? discard the telivision and the radio after all is it not a free society !!!
It would seem that you do not like the thought of theocratic encroachment on your way of thinking , but as a theist I prefer to avoid atheistic encroachment into my life , therefore I do not read newspapers or watch telivision and am selective about what radio I listen to! I started reading this forum out of interest and a wish to make my own assumptions about the world in which I live . I had allso chosen to read it because it is titled ' Religious forum ' I had hoped to escape atheistic scepticism !!!!!

And yes , please tell us what cult you are refering to ?

Edditionally, the questions I asked were simply to further educate myself in the way the mindset of a believer works. When a non-believer asks those questions in such a direct manner, it does seem like we're being judgmental, belittling or offensive because that's just how it sounds.

O.K. if you do not mind subjecting others to direct questioning then you will not mind me asking you a direct question ,

what exactly is it that you dont beleive in ?

and , why is it so disturbing to you that others hold beleifs ?

after all I hold different beleifs to other religious traditions , yet I do not feel threatened by them .

As I said, in my first post, no offense intended.

no offence intended from my side either , just a wish for a truely free society