Reasons to not believe in God? Discuss....

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you moving to the word hypocrisy?.....
Quite common actually.

Spot something contrary to a faith and ask the perpetrator.....
'Don't you know better?'

No, I'm not talking about hypocrisy. I'm talking more about a tendency I've seen in some religious people to underestimate just how much their religious beliefs impact their real-world decisions.

Not to pick on Truth_Faith13, but just to use what he said as a handy example, he argued that hoping for Heaven doesn't impact this reality, while living as if you had $10 million in the bank when you really don't would impact this reality.

From where I sit, both are going to impact a person's real-world decisions. Even the one potential difference - i.e. that you won't find out that you're wrong about the afterlife before you die - isn't necessarily a difference: imagine someone thought "I don't need to get life insurance, because if I die, my massive fortune will mean my kids are taken care of." That guy might not ever realize that he was wrong, but his decision will still have real consequences.

I think similar arguments can be made for plenty of religious beliefs. Think about all the slaves through history who decided not to revolt because they thought that their owners had been given their authority by God, or because they thought that they would be rewarded in Heaven for what they endured.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

It impacts this reality all the time. It's very common for people to make decisions in this life based on what they think will happen in the next one. Take Mother Teresa: she had her hospital leave many patients in pain without painkillers because she believed that their suffering would earn them reward in Heaven. Countless people experienced real suffering because of her "hope".

In my experience, it's very rare for someone's religious beliefs to have no impact on what they do in their lives. And if I ever encountered someone who this was actually true for, I would want to ask him what posessed him to devote so much of his life to such an irrelevant faith.

You won't believe me but it honestly doesn't impact my life decisions. The decision I have made over the years, I would have made anyway, regardless of faith. Some of them might have been different with life experience and hindsight but not because of faith. There is one decision my faith affects and that's which church I go to, if I go.....

I'm a she by the way (I saw in a post you said he)

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Atheism doesn't say neither.

Honestly, I can't say for sure if we have free will or not. My stance is that the term "free" and "will" somehow contradict each other.

By the way, do all religions say that we have free will or is it something more specific to Christianity or special versions of Christianity? I'm thinking of Calvinism or Buddhism etc.

When it comes to experiences and such, we are for sure products of our biology and environment. Perhaps we have some small freedom in there, but I can't say. I know that many things about me comes from who I am and where I come from more than what I currently can freely choose. When I think I freely choose something, isn't it based on some kind of preferences? For instance, if I pick chocolate ice cream instead of vanilla, is it because of conditioning or that I actually at that moment don't have any preconception guiding me? If I can just choose whichever, isn't it just random?



Yes, it's your choice!

Kiddin'. Your reaction is probably because of your history, experiences, upbringing, etc, and biological preconditions too of course. But do you choose to feel that way?

Anyway, when it comes to choice, sometimes I think of it that we have a choice that we make now, even if it's based on our experience, our choice now will affect our current experience which will direct our choices in the future. It's like we're on a boat going down a wild river and we can only watch the landscape go by but we can't steer the boat.

(I'm blabbering again. )

Oh blabber away I enjoy listening to others ideas. I'm not sure how many of the religions teach free will, but I think quite a few do.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Well, yes. If someone is putting something forward as the highest principle in their life but it doesn't affect any aspect of their life, then I would question how high they actually hold it... or whether it's a principle for them at all.

I don't understand how a person's religion can have no impact on their life. At the very least, the faith of an observant Christian (for instance) affects his availability for other things on Sunday morning.

Not mine....I think you might be falling into the trap of stereotyping Christians. There are a whole host of beliefs within Christianity. We don't all act the same you know and you are falling into the trap of grouping together someone who believes in God but not organised religion and someone who believes in both.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You won't believe me but it honestly doesn't impact my life decisions. The decision I have made over the years, I would have made anyway, regardless of faith. Some of them might have been different with life experience and hindsight but not because of faith. There is one decision my faith affects and that's which church I go to, if I go.....

I really can't understand that. Speaking for myself, my atheism informs all sorts of my decisions. For instance, the fact that I don't think this world is the product of the plan of an all-powerful god means that I see hope that I can - in a small way - work to make things better. And the fact that I don't think that any sort of deity/angel/spirit/whatnot is going to swoop down and fix the world's problems gives extra motivation to me to do what I can.

If I though that there was a god taking care of things, I'm not sure I'd work as hard at addressing the problems I see around me. If I thought this life was only a short test or dress rehearsal for the "real" everlasting life to come, I probably wouldn't care as much.

So these sorts of ideas (though from a theistic perspective, obviously) don't factor into your decisions at all? If your faith doesn't inform your life, why do you call yourself a Christian?

I'm a she by the way (I saw in a post you said he)

:sorry1:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Not mine....I think you might be falling into the trap of stereotyping Christians. There are a whole host of beliefs within Christianity. We don't all act the same you know and you are falling into the trap of grouping together someone who believes in God but not organised religion and someone who believes in both.

I'm not stereotyping Christians; I'm just working from the assumption that, in general, religion is not irrelevant. I'm not making any assumptions about HOW your faith should manifest itself; I'm just saying that it should manifest itself in SOME way.

 

[LuisDantas]

I must agree with 9/10ths. To understand that belief shapes choices and behavior is only fair, and hardly qualifies as stereotyping.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I really can't understand that. Speaking for myself, my atheism informs all sorts of my decisions. For instance, the fact that I don't think this world is the product of the plan of an all-powerful god means that I see hope that I can - in a small way - work to make things better. And the fact that I don't think that any sort of deity/angel/spirit/whatnot is going to swoop down and fix the world's problems gives extra motivation to me to do what I can.

If I though that there was a god taking care of things, I'm not sure I'd work as hard at addressing the problems I see around me. If I thought this life was only a short test or dress rehearsal for the "real" everlasting life to come, I probably wouldn't care as much.

So these sorts of ideas (though from a theistic perspective, obviously) don't factor into your decisions at all? If your faith doesn't inform your life, why do you call yourself a Christian?


:sorry1:

I'm still hard working, I still know I have to get things myself. I don't just sit and wait to be handed stuff. I still try and help where I can to make things better. That's just who I am, how I've been brought up I guess. From my perspective, this is what God wants anyway

I call myself a Christian because I believe in God and Jesus Christ as His son. The thing my faith does do is help me personally, it probably gives me that extra strength and comfort in hard times (similar to a kids favourite toy I guess), it gives me someone to talk to and moan at (you might call it talking to myself or meditation), it gives me hope that death isn't the end and that gives me a good feeling. It's a very personal faith. It doesn't mean I get a free pass, and if I want something I go and get it.

But I honestly cannot thing of a time it has affected any decision in my life. All my decisions are done logically, rationally and usually take forever because I am terrible at making a decision, I consider every possibility, every cause and effect, every potential downfall

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I'm not stereotyping Christians; I'm just working from the assumption that, in general, religion is not irrelevant. I'm not making any assumptions about HOW your faith should manifest itself; I'm just saying that it should manifest itself in SOME way.

Why should it? What defines faith? How should it manifest?

What I'm saying is religion/faith is different for various people. Some yes, it affects their whole life, every second, every day, every hour. Some are more general so it does have an impact on every day life but not often. Others like me, it really doesn't.

You can't assume everyone follows the same pattern. Take homosexuals, there are many practising homosexuals who are practising Christians. EVERY Christian religion I know pretty much says PRACTISiNG homosexuality is a sin, yet there are those that say sod organised religion, I believe in God, I'm happy with that belief and I am going to live my life. Are you saying these people don't have a true faith? What standards would you say constitute faith?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I must agree with 9/10ths. To understand that belief shapes choices and behavior is only fair, and hardly qualifies as stereotyping.

Well no it isn't, because it's an assumption everyone who has faith thinks and believes the same. We don't. Some people have grace before meals, I don't for example.

If it helps, a lot of Christians would say that I'm not Christian, but who is anyone else to say I don't have faith? We teach kids to believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny...apart from those occasions, do these "beliefs" effect their lives decisions? No. If I wanted to believe in the Loch Ness monster, is that belief expected to effect my decisions? No....

How is my faith supposed to manifest? What standards are you judging it by? Where is the rule book?

 

[LuisDantas]

Why should it? What defines faith? How should it manifest?

Faith is dealing with those things that you don't know for a fact by making a choice anyway, and attempting to remain true to some guiding principle what so doing.

Making choices without certainty is basically unavoidable. Seeking to be consistent or faithful may be a choice, though.

What I'm saying is religion/faith is different for various people. Some yes, it affects their whole life, every second, every day, every hour. Some are more general so it does have an impact on every day life but not often. Others like me, it really doesn't.

That is a bit difficult to take at face value, at least for me.

Maybe we are just not talking about the same thing, despite superficial appearances?

You can't assume everyone follows the same pattern. Take homosexuals, there are many practising homosexuals who are practising Christians. EVERY Christian religion I know pretty much says PRACTISiNG homosexuality is a sin, yet there are those that say sod organised religion, I believe in God, I'm happy with that belief and I am going to live my life. Are you saying these people don't have a true faith? What standards would you say constitute faith?

More like we are saying that having a faith that disapproves of their lives has consequences and influences their decisions and options.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Faith is dealing with those things that you don't know for a fact by making a choice anyway, and attempting to remain true to some guiding principle what so doing.

Making choices without certainty is basically unavoidable. Seeking to be consistent or faithful may be a choice, though.




That is a bit difficult to take at face value, at least for me.

Maybe we are just not talking about the same thing, despite superficial appearances?




More like we are saying that having a faith that disapproves of their lives has consequences and influences their decisions and options.

How does their faith disapprove of their lives? Do you know what their faith entails? This is what I mean, you are making assumptions of what a persons faith is is about, entails, means etc.

Or are you saying there is conditions to faith? What are these conditions?

 

[LuisDantas]

Well no it isn't, because it's an assumption everyone who has faith thinks and believes the same. We don't. Some people have grace before meals, I don't for example.

Now, that is being unfair. Assuming some influence is not at all the same as thinking "everyone the same".

 

[LuisDantas]

How does their faith disapprove of their lives? Do you know what their faith entails? This is what I mean, you are making assumptions of what a persons faith is is about, entails, means etc.

You told me so, didn't you? From the post of half an hour ago:

Take homosexuals, there are many practising homosexuals who are practising Christians. EVERY Christian religion I know pretty much says PRACTISiNG homosexuality is a sin,

Or are you saying there is conditions to faith? What are these conditions?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Now, that is being unfair. Assuming some influence is not at all the same as thinking "everyone the same".

But to assume there is a blanket influence, is to assume that everyone's "faith" is made up the same way. The fact that you find it hard to comprehend that one Christian will have his decisions and life affected by his faith all the time and another won't, shows that you are blanketing faith.

In order for faith to influence everyone the same way, that faith must be the same.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

You told me so, didn't you? From the post of half an hour ago:

I said ORGANISED religion disapproves, they said sod organised religion and live their lives ie they have a faith which is that God really doesn't care that much. I was trying to show how just because some organised religions have rules and relations and therefore will impact Christians lives, doesn't mean all Christians will follow organised religion and doesn't mean all Christians will have an influence from faith.

Also it's worth making the point that just because some Christians agree with some organised religions rules and regulations, doesn't mean their point of view comes from that faith or religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

There is a clear communication deficiency here. I will return later and attempt to build a framework to clarify some of it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm still hard working, I still know I have to get things myself. I don't just sit and wait to be handed stuff. I still try and help where I can to make things better. That's just who I am, how I've been brought up I guess. From my perspective, this is what God wants anyway

I call myself a Christian because I believe in God and Jesus Christ as His son. The thing my faith does do is help me personally, it probably gives me that extra strength and comfort in hard times (similar to a kids favourite toy I guess), it gives me someone to talk to and moan at (you might call it talking to myself or meditation), it gives me hope that death isn't the end and that gives me a good feeling. It's a very personal faith. It doesn't mean I get a free pass, and if I want something I go and get it.

But I honestly cannot thing of a time it has affected any decision in my life. All my decisions are done logically, rationally and usually take forever because I am terrible at making a decision, I consider every possibility, every cause and effect, every potential downfall

But that's the thing: logic and rationality describe how we get from premises to conclusions. Normally, if a person is rational, having different premises (e.g. believing in God or not) will result in different conclusions.

I'm curious, though: why shouldn't you get a free pass? As an analogy, when the fire department is already at the scene of a fire, I don't rush over with the little 10 pound extinguisher I keep in my car. I know that the people are already in good hands and that I couldn't do anything to help that isn't already being done.

If Christ and the Christian God actually exist, then isn't ANY situation already in more capable hands than any team of firefighters? Where's the motivation for you to get involved? What can you do to help that God can't do by himself?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

There is a clear communication deficiency here. I will return later and attempt to build a framework to clarify some of it.

Yeah I think there might be...ok

 

[Truth_Faith13]

But that's the thing: logic and rationality describe how we get from premises to conclusions. Normally, if a person is rational, having different premises (e.g. believing in God or not) will result in different conclusions.

I'm curious, though: why shouldn't you get a free pass? As an analogy, when the fire department is already at the scene of a fire, I don't rush over with the little 10 pound extinguisher I keep in my car. I know that the people are already in good hands and that I couldn't do anything to help that isn't already being done.

If Christ and the Christian God actually exist, then isn't ANY situation already in more capable hands than any team of firefighters? Where's the motivation for you to get involved? What can you do to help that God can't do by himself?

I'm finding it intriguing, how for someone who doesn't believe a God, you are putting conditions and contents of a persons faith. It's impossible to now what each individual person believes and or has faith in. You are basing your arguments on a specific religions belief system without defining the religion? There may very well be a person who thinks, yep god has everything sorted, I'm not helping...but that's not me?