Reasons to not believe in God? Discuss....

[Truth_Faith13]

If Christ and the Christian God actually exist, then isn't ANY situation already in more capable hands than any team of firefighters? Where's the motivation for you to get involved? What can you do to help that God can't do by himself?

Actually, perhaps you can tell me where in MY faith, that is the case? Where in MY faith is there a rule that I don't have to help? God has it?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why should it? What defines faith? How should it manifest?

What I'm saying is religion/faith is different for various people. Some yes, it affects their whole life, every second, every day, every hour. Some are more general so it does have an impact on every day life but not often. Others like me, it really doesn't.

You can't assume everyone follows the same pattern. Take homosexuals, there are many practising homosexuals who are practising Christians. EVERY Christian religion I know pretty much says PRACTISiNG homosexuality is a sin, yet there are those that say sod organised religion, I believe in God, I'm happy with that belief and I am going to live my life. Are you saying these people don't have a true faith? What standards would you say constitute faith?

As I said, I'm not assuming that it should manifest in any particular way (other than consistent with their beliefs, but what those beliefs are will vary from person to person).

Generally, religion is a matter of importance to people - which makes sense, since people who don't care about religion don't tend to invest themselves in a religion - and most religion concerns itself with fundamental principles that seem like they ought to apply very broadly across a person's life.

Those principles will vary from person to person, but it should manifest somehow, shouldn't it? I've known Quakers who had absolutely no problem with same-sex marriage or homosexuality, but their faith still motivated them to do things like work for social justice and pacifism.

What a person's faith implies will vary, but I just can't believe that a person's core beliefs and principles - whatever they are - don't inform their actions at all.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually, perhaps you can tell me where in MY faith, that is the case? Where in MY faith is there a rule that I don't have to help? God has it?

I was talking about hypotheticals. I don't know enough about your beliefs to say what actions they suggest.

Edit: and I wasn't saying that it's a "rule"; it was more of a logical conclusion. But tell you what: which of these statements do you disagree with:

- God sees what happens to humanity
- God understands the needs of humanity
- God helps people when they're in need
- God is eminently capable of helping people

 

[Ouroboros]

Naw....your belief took root.....but withered.

Not to worry.
I doubt that all of the life is gone.

Well, I do have a belief now, but it's different. I scrapped Christianity and found Naturalism/Panentheism.

So yeah, the religious weed was removed, and a proper faith replaced it.

 

[jtartar]

OK so I have been having a lovely chat with the guys over on the atheism DIR regarding reasons they don't believe in God/follow any particular religion. A couple of the reasons mentioned make a valid point, but personally I don't find them reasons to not believe in God entirely. Being the atheism DIR, I didn't want to cause a debate so it was suggested I start a thread. It would actually be a great topic to explore the differing reasons people choose not to believe (or of course believe in the flip side) and the counter arguments which can be used for the opposing?

Here is the one from the other thread, but please feel free to add and discuss/debate your own...

Reason: the vast number of denominations/religions

Now on the surface, I can fully understand this perspective. I certainly have times where I feel "why bother", on the assumption there is a God of some sort or gods, it would be impossible to work out which is the "right" one to follow. I know some people believe that every religion leads to the same destination but I personally do not believe this.

That said I don't believe this is reason to not believe in God (however you view him or her) entirely and here's why....

Simply put it's the same as a parent child relationship. Parent says do this, child does something else. Just because a child misbehaves, doesn't mean there isn't parent at home trying to discipline them. Now I admit this is a very simple view...but what about "but this being is supposed to be God"...true but like a child, we have the ability to choose (free will)...I'm not sure I would want to worship a God which made us into emotionless robots without the ability to choose. Truth be told I think we are destined to attempt to disobey God, assuming one exists, it appears to be in our nature. Clearly some religions are man made...we would disagree on which ones but it proves that man creates things for his own satisfaction. But should we disregard ALL religions just because many are false. Their are people who murder...are we all murderers?

So why doesn't God make it more clear to us? But would we listen? Has anybody been utterly in "love" at a young age...parents have said its a bad idea (the truth) but we didn't listen? Sometimes the truth is hard to hear, I know many of us including me would have to change our lives in someway. Even if God was to make it abundantly clear...would we follow? Or would we choose to disobey? Has anybody heard when Michael Jackson went to his own look alike competition and LOST...MJ himself was there and no one thought it was him? What would God have to do for us to accept him? A burning bush would be out down to an hallucination these days...

The amount of denominations is down to man not God (at least from my perspective). I'm not even sure which if any are right anymore. They could all be wrong, but there could still be a God.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Truth_Faith 13,
Is it possible for you to contemplate the stars, in fact the Universe, with billions of Galaxies, made up of hundreds of billons of stars, with everything moving in complete harmony. In fact the word Cosmos actually means harmony of motion. Even the simplest living cell is so complex that it would take a complete block of manufacturing plants, of men, to do what it does.
There are several branches of science that tries to duplicate the design of things we see in nature. When a scientist designs a copy of something, he is hailed as a great designer, but the real thing is just an accident of blind chance, or a unknowing Mother Nature.
Did you know that mathematicians were consulted, they figured that the chances that all creation came about by chance were ONE to all the atoms in the universe. Quite Impossible!!! They say that anything more that 1 to the 40th power is impossible.
There are several branches of science, Teleology, Also called Teleological Argument, and Cosmological Argument, or Argument from Design. These make a compelling argument for design by a superior mind.
Let me take another tack. it could be that you are looking in the wrong place to find God, and His ONE FAITH, mentioned in the Bible, Eph 4:3-6. You see, most people look in places that they will never find Jesus or his Father. Most believe they must look for the wisest, the most popular, the faith that has the best or most well known preachers, or maybe the richest. You will never find God's people there.
Notice what the Bible says about the favored people today, 1Cor 1:26-28. Notice that God's people will be overturning strongly entrenched things, false teachings, 2Cor 10:5, 2Tim 4:3-5. What kind of treatment do true Christians expect, Luke 6:23,24,26, Meditate on what I said here!!
Jesus made the statement that his people would be hated and persecuted by all people, John 15:18-21, Matt 10:22,25, 24:9. Really what group are hated by ALL PEOPLE? Even Jews are loved in Israel.
Consider John 16:2,3, where we see Jesus teaching that people who thought they were in the right, would even kill God's faithful ones, thinking they were doing God a service.
All people who try to live a Godly life WILL be persecuted, 2Tim 3:12.
One other very important thing that God's people will be doing is Preach about the Good News of God's Kingdom. This teaching is almost forgotten in the churches today, Matt 28:19,20, 2Tim 4:2-4.
Especially should you look for the people who are fulfilling this prophecy, Matt 24:14.
Could it be that you have looked in the wrong places???

 

[Ouroboros]

You make a lot of presumptions about others.

Yup. He does.

But he's right though. The Christian faith was a weed in my life and in my family's. We did remove it because it was holding us back. And in place, we have something closer to atheism. That's probably the true roses in the garden.

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Well, I do have a belief now, but it's different. I scrapped Christianity and found Naturalism/Panentheism.

So yeah, the religious weed was removed, and a proper faith replaced it.

What is naturalism/panentheism?

 

[Ouroboros]

Then you didn't get it.
By his own admission.....he HAD faith.....

You know the parable?....right?

I did have faith.

Some people here claim that I didn't but was decieved by the devil.

Now I have faith in the Universe, Reality, Nature, All that is.

So it's all good. I did weed out the Christian dogma and found the truth. The real faith. Naturalistic Panentheism.

So how about you? Is it time to weed out your false faith as well?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I was talking about hypotheticals. I don't know enough about your beliefs to say what actions they suggest.

Edit: and I wasn't saying that it's a "rule"; it was more of a logical conclusion. But tell you what: which of these statements do you disagree with:

- God sees what happens to humanity
- God understands the needs of humanity
- God helps people when they're in need
- God is eminently capable of helping people

I don't know, because I don't know fully what I believe about God. I can only hope he sees what happens, understand us, can intervene (but doesn't always or in the way we expect), guides us etc etc

Bible believing Christians would accept all of those.
I'm not sure about other religions.

 

[Ouroboros]

If I understand the 'question'.....
You do see that religion has effect in the lives of people....
but should you meet someone who DOES believe...but has no 'manifestation'...
this would be the puzzle?

What do you mean exactly?

I believed for 30 years without manifistation. But when it came to my family's health and needs, Magical Pixidust God wasn't there. God rolls the dice when it comes to miracles.

 

[Ouroboros]

Oh blabber away I enjoy listening to others ideas. I'm not sure how many of the religions teach free will, but I think quite a few do.

Yes, several probably have it, but the way you phrased it gave me the impression that you thought all religions had it. And I don't think that's true. Some, or many, but not all.

 

[Ouroboros]

I must agree with 9/10ths. To understand that belief shapes choices and behavior is only fair, and hardly qualifies as stereotyping.

I think that's the whole idea behind religion, to change and influence one's behavior, values, choices, morals, etc. It's about ideas, thoughts, and beliefs, which regulate what we do.

 

[Ouroboros]

Well no it isn't, because it's an assumption everyone who has faith thinks and believes the same. We don't. Some people have grace before meals, I don't for example.

If it helps, a lot of Christians would say that I'm not Christian, but who is anyone else to say I don't have faith? We teach kids to believe in Santa Claus, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny...apart from those occasions, do these "beliefs" effect their lives decisions? No. If I wanted to believe in the Loch Ness monster, is that belief expected to effect my decisions? No....

How is my faith supposed to manifest? What standards are you judging it by? Where is the rule book?

For instance, you marked down your faith as "Christian". It was a choice made from your belief. It will influence how people look at you and respond to you on this website. You know this. And obviously there was some thought about it based on your faith.

 

[Ouroboros]

What is naturalism/panentheism?

I should have said Naturalistic Panentheism.

All is God. Nature, Reality, Ground of All Being, Multiverse, take it all, including us, and our consciousness, spirit, emotions, whatever there is, all of it is God.

It's a very simplistic explanation, but it'll do for now.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Absolutes?

:biglaugh:

You mean to tell me that religious people do not think that their religion is entirely objective an absolute? Oh you live in an ignorant and knowledge depraved world

 

[McBell]

Atheists as a whole are uninterested in which god is most likely truthful they just dislike the concept of god and often fulfill absolutes like religion with science. Ironically the only intellectually free individuals in this case are non religious theists but that is another story I guess

Absolutes?

:biglaugh:

You mean to tell me that religious people do not think that their religion is entirely objective an absolute?

Nope.

I just find your claim of atheists as a whole replacing religious "absolutes" with science to be at the very least as ignorant a claim as your sad sorry attempt at dictation below.

Oh you live in an ignorant and knowledge depraved world

[sarcasm]
Oh my.
You really got me there.
How can I ever begin to counter such well referenced and solid a claim?
[/sarcasm]

 

[Thief]

No, I'm not talking about hypocrisy. I'm talking more about a tendency I've seen in some religious people to underestimate just how much their religious beliefs impact their real-world decisions.

Not to pick on Truth_Faith13, but just to use what he said as a handy example, he argued that hoping for Heaven doesn't impact this reality, while living as if you had $10 million in the bank when you really don't would impact this reality.

From where I sit, both are going to impact a person's real-world decisions. Even the one potential difference - i.e. that you won't find out that you're wrong about the afterlife before you die - isn't necessarily a difference: imagine someone thought "I don't need to get life insurance, because if I die, my massive fortune will mean my kids are taken care of." That guy might not ever realize that he was wrong, but his decision will still have real consequences.

I think similar arguments can be made for plenty of religious beliefs. Think about all the slaves through history who decided not to revolt because they thought that their owners had been given their authority by God, or because they thought that they would be rewarded in Heaven for what they endured.

That last part......a belief based on a misconception.....
It would still have an effect.

I have no dogmatic belief.
My beliefs affect my life.
But I believe...not because someone else said so....not for faith of hope....

I believe because I found reason to do so.

That the rest of the world is draggin along badly......too bad.

Maybe I can find a way to reach more people.....
like an international forum?

 

[Thief]

I should have said Naturalistic Panentheism.

All is God. Nature, Reality, Ground of All Being, Multiverse, take it all, including us, and our consciousness, spirit, emotions, whatever there is, all of it is God.

It's a very simplistic explanation, but it'll do for now.

No it won't.
This thread as I see it...is about a focus on Someone Greater than yourself.

Do you really believe there is no One Greater?
No afterlife?

If there is an afterlife....Someone will be in charge.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If there is an afterlife....Someone will be in charge.

Not necessarily. From what I know and my experiences, there's no "one" that's ultimately in charge. It's a state of anarchy and factions. It's a lot bigger and much more complex than most people realize or can comprehend.

 

[LuisDantas]

I have no dogmatic belief.

If there is an afterlife....Someone will be in charge.

I rest my case.