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Redefining Marriage

Alceste

Vagabond
No major society throughout all of history has accepted anything other than man-woman marriage. Only isolated pockets practiced homosexual marriage.

"Isolated pockets" with Same-Sex Marriage
Canada
The Netherlands
Belgium
Norway
South Africa
Spain
Massachusetts
California
Israel (recognizes marriages performed in other countries)


"Isolated Pockets" with Same-Sex Civil Unions
Andorra
Australia
Colombia
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Iceland
Israel
Luxembourg
New Zealand
Portugal
Slovenia
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
United States (10 of them)
Uruguay
 

rojse

RF Addict
Inspite of all the changes that the legal definition of marriage has gone through, the constant between them can't really be ignored. Throughout time, one thing has never changed: "man and woman." Religious and racial prohibitions may have collapsed, but the underlying definition of marriage--the one constant--has always been the union of man and woman.

Yes, but the one thing that never changed for marriage before the 1960's was race. Would this have made an acceptable defense against inter-racial marriages?
 

rojse

RF Addict
No, but it is counter evolutionary. a society within itself that adopts homosexuality as a normal thing and encourages the behavior, will eventially dwindle and perish because there will be no new posterity unless you inbreed.

If we are going to argue about the benefits of homosexuality because it does not allow offspring, surely we should then support the choice between homosexuality and heterosexuality? Who would actually argue that we actually need a growing population when we already have a planet crammed with six billion people, two thirds of which live below poverty?

In any case, this is not about whether homosexuality is correct or not, but whether we can redefine marriage or not.

Someone please start a thread where we can debate homosexuality, because I can see a lot of people want to get into that argument.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
No, but it is counter evolutionary. a society within itself that adopts homosexuality as a normal thing and encourages the behavior, will eventially dwindle and perish because there will be no new posterity unless you inbreed.

same thign happens in polygamist groups they have to resort to inbreeding because everyone becomes related eventually.

Are you some kind of robot? This has already been explained multiple times. An entire society isn't going to magically stop breeding and become gay just by tolerating those who already are. It would have absolutely no impact on heterosexuals or breeding. The real and only reason you object to homosexuals is due to your religious hocus pocus.
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
If you can't tolerate the laws, move.

Is that what you would've said to the civil rights movement that fought against segregation, Jim Crow laws, discrimination, voting rights for women and minorities, etc? Get to the back of the bus or get out of the country, right?
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
If it were that way from the beginning the human race would not exist because THE ONLY WAY for humans to reproduce is heterosexually.

Why wouldn't we exist? Heterosexuals would still be heterosexual, and would still reproduce. To be honest with you we do get a bit tired of refuting the exact same silly arguments over and over.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
***MOD ADVISORY***

Please stay on topic and aviod personal comments.

Thanks
 

Nessa

Color Me Happy
It's hard to define the Bible's position on polygamy. At the very least, we can assert it was condoned in the Bible. Thus an argument can be presented that laws prohibiting polygamy have re-defined marriage.

Personally, I find polygamy shallow and disingenuous but from an objective viewpoint, what is wrong with it among consenting adults.
 
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The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
She can speak openly of her views i don't care, But if you REALLY want to marry someone of the same sex, go somewhere it's allowed. That simple.
No. That's close minded, ignorant, and unAmerican.


just like underage drinking. People can't drink in the US till 21, so they go to Canada and drink when they are 19.
Terrible analogy on several levels. That underage drinker will drive back across the border and sleep in his own bed tonight.
Take another stab at it.


If you can't tolerate the laws, move.
Can't make me.

If you don't want to drive 65 MPH on the highway, why don't you move to Germany and enjoy the autobahn? Or are you going to tell us that you never drive over the posted speed limit?
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
"Isolated pockets" with Same-Sex Marriage
Canada The Netherlands Belgium Norway South Africa Spain
Massachusetts California Israel (recognizes marriages performed in other countries)


"Isolated Pockets" with Same-Sex Civil Unions
Andorra Australia Colombia Croatia Czech Republic Denmark Finland
France Germany Hungary Iceland Israel Luxembourg New Zealand
Portugal Slovenia Sweden Switzerland United Kingdom United States (10 of them) Uruguay


We need some of our social conservatives to move to these "Isolated pockets" and bring them up to speed on just how they are going to ruin mankind.

You know something - when I look at a map, these pockets don't seem to appear isolated at all. Now why would that be?
 

ladybug83

Member
If we think about how our species consists of only two sexes--male and female--then one must wonder how and where homosexuality would fit in. It's a subculture, and like someone had mentioned earlier, there have always been more heterosexuals than homosexuals. Given these facts, it's understandable as to why our (the human race's) statutes, our social structures, etc. initially revolved around a heterosexual society. Marriage is just one thing that began for the purpose of uniting a man and a woman only, before all other sub-points (race, religion, class, etc.) were tacked onto its definition. I think what Card was trying to say in his editorial was that marriage was created between, and for, a man and a woman across races, religions, or anything else, and not for the manipulation of a government; that marriage between the only two sexes within our species shouldn't be accepted as an option to choose from.
 

Nessa

Color Me Happy
When you consider hermaphrodites and other Chromosome Syndromes many researchers now believe that humans have more than two sexes. And it goes beyond the irregularities of our chromosomes.

But, my review of current research and experience with gender dysphoric, gay and traditional clients has led me to see gender not as a bimodal male or female dichotomy but as a matrix—a possible mix of male and female development within the same individual.

Dr. Carl Bushong : Transsexual Transgender Care : What is Gender
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
If we think about how our species consists of only two sexes--male and female--then one must wonder how and where homosexuality would fit in. It's a subculture, and like someone had mentioned earlier, there have always been more heterosexuals than homosexuals. Given these facts, it's understandable as to why our (the human race's) statutes, our social structures, etc. initially revolved around a heterosexual society. Marriage is just one thing that began for the purpose of uniting a man and a woman only, before all other sub-points (race, religion, class, etc.) were tacked onto its definition. I think what Card was trying to say in his editorial was that marriage was created between, and for, a man and a woman across races, religions, or anything else, and not for the manipulation of a government; that marriage between the only two sexes within our species shouldn't be accepted as an option to choose from.

I really don't understand what you mean by your last phrase. It's not like people are trying to marry outside of their species. Everyone is trying to marry one of the two genders. Obviously most marriages and unions in history involved heterosexual couples. The majority of the human population has been heterosexual. That doesn't mean that marriage hasn't or can't include things that aren't part of the majority. The majority of marriages in America, I'm sure, are Christian marriages in Christian religious places. Does that mean we can't let atheists get married in a non-religious place?
 

Alceste

Vagabond
If we think about how our species consists of only two sexes--male and female--then one must wonder how and where homosexuality would fit in. It's a subculture, and like someone had mentioned earlier, there have always been more heterosexuals than homosexuals. Given these facts, it's understandable as to why our (the human race's) statutes, our social structures, etc. initially revolved around a heterosexual society. Marriage is just one thing that began for the purpose of uniting a man and a woman only, before all other sub-points (race, religion, class, etc.) were tacked onto its definition. I think what Card was trying to say in his editorial was that marriage was created between, and for, a man and a woman across races, religions, or anything else, and not for the manipulation of a government; that marriage between the only two sexes within our species shouldn't be accepted as an option to choose from.

A reasonable theory, but factually incorrect. The ancient egyptions used "marriage" to define same-sex partnerships, and homosexuality was widely accepted in the world before Judeo-Christianity came along with its enormous baggage of sexual taboos.

The marginalization and denial of freedoms to homosexuals in our culture is an invention of Abrahamic religion. Nothing to do with human evolution. Even in North America until the Christians came along with their preposterous sexual taboos, the people who lived here before you did openly accepted homosexual partnerships, and still do. Some cultures in North America have as many as seven genders.

As of 1991, male and female bodied Two-Spirit people have been "documented in over 130 North American tribes, in every region of the continent, among every type of native culture"[2].
~wiki

In fact, North American Christians have already drastically redefined marriage in North America. Accepting the equal rights, freedoms, and the essential humanity of everyone, regardless of gender, would simply be putting things back the way they were - traditionally - in this part of the world.
 
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Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Inspite of all the changes that the legal definition of marriage has gone through, the constant between them can't really be ignored. Throughout time, one thing has never changed: "man and woman." Religious and racial prohibitions may have collapsed, but the underlying definition of marriage--the one constant--has always been the union of man and woman.

Bzzzt. Wrong.

One of the recurring clichés of the same-sex marriage debate is that the very notion of such a thing is a radical departure from anything entertained before in human history. Nothing, however, could be further from the truth. In many cultures and in many eras, the issue has emerged-and the themes of the arguments are quirkily similar. Same-sex love, as Plato's Symposium shows, is as ancient as human love, and the question of how it is recognized and understood has bedeviled every human civilization. In most, it has never taken the form of the modern institution of marriage, but in some, surprisingly, it has. In seventeenth-century China and nineteenth-century Africa, for example, the institution seems identical to opposite-sex marriage. In other cultures (see the debate between Brent Shaw and Ralph Hexter) the meaning of same-sex unions remains opaque and complex. In Native American society, marriage between two men was commonplace, but its similarity to contemporary lesbian and gay marriages is far from evident. And today in a number of foreign countries, laws extending civil marriage to gay and lesbian couples have been or will soon be enacted. Judge for yourself what this might mean for our current convulsion. One thing emerges clearly: this issue is not a modern invention. The need to balance human dignity and social norms is as old as civilization itself. Although much of the past history of this debate has been buried until recently, it has begun to emerge again with all the passion that now crackles through modern Western culture.
from here.
 
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