Redefining Marriage

[Father Heathen]

Does existence in nature imply normative in nature? We see birth-defects to diseases to cannibalism to incest in nature but I don't think we equate those to good things. This is why when a child is born physically or mentally handicapped that we have sympathy. We acknowledge that this isn't the natural order of things or the way something is supposed to happen. In the same way, homosexual relations don't jive with many people because it doesn't appear to be natural. As a few others stated, how can it be natural? Nature flourishes not from same sex relations or sameness but from complimentarity.

If God intended for man to fly, he would had given him wings.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

If God intended for man to fly, he would had given him wings.

Or provided him with the resources and intellectual capacity to make aeroplanes.

Perhaps I am just being petty. I'll stop because I agree with your premise.

 

[madhatter85]

[/indent]Did you grab the right quote? I think you mistakenly grabbed the one that supports a stance on pedophilia.

excuse me? I hope you are joking.

 

[madhatter85]

Though the natural man is someone that gives in to his desires. It could be used to condemn sipping coffee. It's extremely vague.

Though I agree with misanthropic_clown, it's off-topic for this thread.

Coffee by the way is also condemned by God in the word of Wisdom in the 89th section of the Doctrine and Covenants as revealed to hsi Prophet Joseph Smith.

Doctrine and Covenants 89

on average mormons live 8-11 years longer than the national average due to this Word of Wisdom which we hold dear.

 

[Nessa]

Coffee by the way is also condemned by God in the word of Wisdom in the 89th section of the Doctrine and Covenants as revealed to hsi Prophet Joseph Smith.

Doctrine and Covenants 89

on average mormons live 8-11 years longer than the national average due to this Word of Wisdom which we hold dear.

I know, there might have been a reason I used that example

 

[madhatter85]

If God intended for man to fly, he would had given him wings.

how does this even relate to the post?

 

[rojse]

on average mormons live 8-11 years longer than the national average due to this Word of Wisdom which we hold dear.

I would love to see where this statistic comes from.

 

[Magic Man]

for all those who try to justify homosexuality as natural, I give you this scripture in which i use to justify my opinions.

Mosiah 3:

In other words "Be God's slave". Also, whatever you do, do not be natural! Obviously, you shouldn't be the way God made you. You should be the way God wants you to be in spite of how he made you. As in, God made you one way just so he could tell you to not be that way, and instead be this way. That certainly does sound like a loving God.

 

[Father Heathen]

how does this even relate to the post?

Flying, like eating shellfish, is an unnatural abomination.

 

[Magic Man]

Coffee by the way is also condemned by God in the word of Wisdom in the 89th section of the Doctrine and Covenants as revealed to hsi Prophet Joseph Smith.

Doctrine and Covenants 89

on average mormons live 8-11 years longer than the national average due to this Word of Wisdom which we hold dear.

It depends on what you consider "living". I don't consider depriving myself of any kind of pleasure "living". I'll take 8-11 less years accompanied by drinking alcohol, having sex for pleasure, trying some recreational drugs, being tolerant of all people, not being a prude and generally not feeling ashamed of myself. One could live a very long life, on average, if one only worked from home, ate only healthy foods and drinks and did absolutely nothing risky or exciting. I don't want to, though.

 

[McBell]

I would love to see where this statistic comes from.

As would I.
Hopefully it isn't another one of Orson Scott Card's "articles."

 

[madhatter85]

I would love to see where this statistic comes from.

Here:
The Word of Wisdom: A Principle with Promise

Medicine reported that active Latter-day Saint men who have never smoked, get moderate exercise, and get adequate sleep have a life expectancy of 85 years, 11 years more than the U.S. average. Their wives have a life expectancy of 88, which is eight years more than the average U.S. woman. Latter-day Saints have less than half of the cancer risk of the population as a whole. The increased life expectancy of Latter-day Saints is even greater than that achieved by the average individual who does not use do not use alcohol or tobacco.

Enstrom, James E., "Health Practices and Mortality among Active California Mormons, 1980-1993," in James T. Duke (ed.), Latter-day Saint Social Life. Provo: Religious Studies Center, 1998, pp. 461-471.

Another researcher estimates that those complying with the Word of Wisdom increase their life expectancy by approximately seven years.

Daniel H. Ludlow (editor), Encyclopedia of Mormonism (New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1992), 1585.

A study by the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation on Utah, which is over 70% LDS, reports: “Its strengths include the lowest prevalence of smoking in the country at 13.2 percent of the population, the lowest risk for heart disease at 19 percent below the national average, the lowest rate of heart disease at 197.9 deaths per 100,000 population and the lowest cancer deaths at 167.8 deaths per 100,000 population. It is also among the top 10 states for low violent crime, strong high school graduation rates, few limited activity days, low total mortality, low infant mortality and a low rate of premature death.”

United Health Foundation State Health Ranking, 2002 Edition. http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org/shr2002/states/Utah.html

 

[McBell]

Here:
The Word of Wisdom: A Principle with Promise



Enstrom, James E., "Health Practices and Mortality among Active California Mormons, 1980-1993," in James T. Duke (ed.), Latter-day Saint Social Life. Provo: Religious Studies Center, 1998, pp. 461-471.


Daniel H. Ludlow (editor), Encyclopedia of Mormonism (New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1992), 1585.



United Health Foundation State Health Ranking, 2002 Edition. http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org/shr2002/states/Utah.html

interesting.
You stated that Mormons live 8 years longer because they do not drink coffee.
Yet your "source" says nothing about how not drinking coffee increases the life expectancy by any amount of time.

Then to top it off, the parts of your source that you quote in your post are about SMOKING, NOT drinking coffee.

Did I miss something here?

 

[Magic Man]

Here:
The Word of Wisdom: A Principle with Promise



Enstrom, James E., "Health Practices and Mortality among Active California Mormons, 1980-1993," in James T. Duke (ed.), Latter-day Saint Social Life. Provo: Religious Studies Center, 1998, pp. 461-471.


Daniel H. Ludlow (editor), Encyclopedia of Mormonism (New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1992), 1585.



United Health Foundation State Health Ranking, 2002 Edition. http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org/shr2002/states/Utah.htmlhttp://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org/shr2002/states/Utah.html

So, basically, not smoking raises the average life span? Brilliant!

 

[McBell]

So, basically, not smoking raises the average life span? Brilliant!

But what does it have to do with his claim that not drinking coffee raises the life expectancy?

 

[rojse]

Here:
The Word of Wisdom: A Principle with Promise



Enstrom, James E., "Health Practices and Mortality among Active California Mormons, 1980-1993," in James T. Duke (ed.), Latter-day Saint Social Life. Provo: Religious Studies Center, 1998, pp. 461-471.


Daniel H. Ludlow (editor), Encyclopedia of Mormonism (New York: Macmillan Publishing Company, 1992), 1585.



United Health Foundation State Health Ranking, 2002 Edition. http://www.unitedhealthfoundation.org/shr2002/states/Utah.html

Honestly, I could find information that shows pretty much every food item will shorten your life expectancy.

 

[Magic Man]

But what does it have to do with his claim that not drinking coffee raises the life expectancy?

Yes, exactly. My point was that everythig claimed in that article could apply to any group of people who doesn't smoke. That includes many groups that aren't LDS, of course. LDS don't have some kind of monopoly on realizing the dangers of smoking.

 

[Alceste]

Yes, exactly. My point was that everythig claimed in that article could apply to any group of people who doesn't smoke. That includes many groups that aren't LDS, of course. LDS don't have some kind of monopoly on realizing the dangers of smoking.

It does give me the idea, though, that if I wrote a book of scripture on how God forbids McDonald's, extreme sports and driving, I too could use the resulting life expectancy statistics to convince Mormons I am a holy prophet. Woot!

But what does caffeine and smoking have to do with homosexuality?

 

[Alceste]

Does existence in nature imply normative in nature?

Doesn't just imply normative, Ringer.What occurs in nature is, by definition, natural.

We see birth-defects to diseases to cannibalism to incest in nature but I don't think we equate those to good things. This is why when a child is born physically or mentally handicapped that we have sympathy.

I'll just cut you off right there and point out that equating the open expression of natural sexual desire with birth defects, mental retardation and cannibalism offends me. My gay friends and family have my love and admiration, not my sympathy - except when they have to deal with religious people like yourself who insist they are somehow subhuman. For myself, I have far more pity for people who feel they can't openly express their natural physical desires because of a bunch of words in some book.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

I'll just cut you off right there and point out that equating the open expression of natural sexual desire with birth defects, mental retardation and cannibalism offends me. My gay friends and family have my love and admiration, not my sympathy - except when they have to deal with religious people like yourself who insist they are somehow subhuman. For myself, I have far more pity for people who feel they can't openly express their natural physical desires because of a bunch of words in some book.

I do think you are twisting the words somewhat. The point was

Some natural things are bad

This was qualified with birth defects are natural, but bad.

This was qualified by the fact we feel sympathy for birth defect sufferers.

Ergo just because homosexuality is natural, does not mean it is good

There was no equating the homosexuality with the need for sympathy, or cannibalism etc. The point was as tastefully put as could be done, and whether or not you are inclined to agree with it, it was certainly a bit needless for you to get offended by it.