"Reformed" Islam

[Woodrow LI]

okay...there's a picture I want to show you:

all the countries in blue are the states where there is a written civil and penal law (the codes).

Let's take France. In France a Muslim can never apply the Islamic sharia, not even for private matters (contracts, marriages, divorces, inheritance). Because there is already a civil law, written in the Code Civil, and French Muslims must regulate their private relationships according to these laws. so these deals and acts are legal and juridically relevant (legally recognized).
Of course they can make private deals by applying the sharia law. It's their right to do that.
But these deals, contracts, marriages, etc...do not have juridic value before the French law.

Got it?

I am law school graduate, so I do know how the law works in countries like France, Italy, Spain.
Differently than UK; USA; etc

Thank you for the explanation. Being an American I can not understand how Civil laws can be State codified. The closest ti codification I see in the US are the 10-20 US states that specifically forbid the use of Islamic Civil law No need in me derailing the thread and go into a long post.

I will now acknowledge European law is Different from US law.

 

[Estro Felino]

Thank you for the explanation. Being an American I can not understand how Civil laws can be State codified. No need in me derailing the thread and go into a long post.

I will now acknowledge European law is Different from US law.

yes, but my question stands firm. I asked the same thing to Pastek.

Is really a big sacrifice for a Muslim who lives in France to apply the French law? In your opinion, of course
and what would you do, if you lived in France?

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Islamic states are free to do whatever they want to.
Muslims pay the zakat and Non-Muslims the jizya.
But this is called "discriminating people on the basis of their religion". Discriminating literally means "to differentiate".

In our European constitution there is not even the gender discrimination. Religion is something juridically irrelevant and insignificant before the law. So to us Europeans it is absurd that a state can split citizens into Muslims and non-Muslims.
But I do respect Islamic states.

all that really matters is that Muslims who move to Europe understand that they can practice their religion and the state protects their right of religion (lots of states even finance mosques), but they must obey the state law and are not allowed to apply the law of their countries

Response: If discriminate means to differentiate, then when your European country makes a distinguish between men and women in sports, dressing rooms, toiletry, etc., then it also discriminates. So if it is okay for Europe, then it is okay for an Islamic state.

 

[Estro Felino]

Response: If discriminate means to differentiate, then when your European country makes a distinguish between men and women in sports, dressing rooms, toiletry, etc., then it also discriminates. So if it is okay for Europe, then it is okay for an Islamic state.

no, please...is that a joke?
are you really comparing the law of a country to the toilets?

well...of course men and women have the right to have, for hygienic reasons primarily, two different rest rooms.

Do you realize that you are comparing the difference between Muslims and non-Muslims to the difference between men and women?

 

[Woodrow LI]

yes, but my question stands firm. I asked the same thing to Pastek.

Is really a big sacrifice for a Muslim who lives in France to apply the French law? In your opinion, of course
and what would you do, if you lived in France?

I am not Familiar with French law. But If I found something in French lawm that required me to do something I am forbidden to do I would migrate from France as fast as possible. But obey the laws as long as I am there.

 

[Estro Felino]

I am not Familiar with French law. But If I found something in French lawm that required me to do something I am forbidden to do I would migrate from France as fast as possible. But obey the laws as long as I am there.

yes, can you be more specific?
I assure you that the French law doesn't obligate Muslims to do anything which is against their religion.
the French law protects the right to build mosques and pray publicly, and proselytize Non-Muslims.
so it is very very very hard that what you are afraid of might happen

 

[Woodrow LI]

yes, can you be more specific?
You talk about this law as if it was something monstrous...

I do not now of any French laws that would affect me as a Muslim male. If I were Female the Hijab ban would affect me as I would be committing a sin each time I did not wear the Hijab in public. In that case my only option would be to leave France.

 

[Estro Felino]

I do not now of any French laws that would affect me as a Muslim male. If I were Female the Hijab ban would affect me as I would be committing a sin each time I did not wear the Hijab in public. In that case my only option would be to leave France.

No....there's no such a law. The French governments forbids both women and men to have their face covered.
so only burqas are forbidden, for security reasons.

In fact, I am a male and I could never wear a mask in a public area.

Women can wear whatever they want: scarfs, veils, traditional Muslim clothing.

come on...burqas are despised even by the 98 % of Muslims...

 

[icehorse]

This is a cool map Hay85 - but can you discuss the situation in the US and the UK? I thought the US (for example) had pretty extensive civil and criminal law systems

 

[Estro Felino]

This Muslim woman wrote a book: Allah, Liberty and Love

She says that:
- Her God is a loving, forgiving and clement God
- God wants people to love and people have the duty to love
- The violence in the Qur'an must be rejected

The thing is that many many Muslims are against this woman and her vision. But of course lots of Muslims support her.

 

[Estro Felino]

This is a cool map Hay85 - but can you discuss the situation in the US and the UK? I thought the US (for example) had pretty extensive civil and criminal law systems

Common law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Us and Uk have a common Law system. That is, the law which is applied is substantially, jurisprudence (that is, court sentences and decisions in absence of statutes). So judges have definitely a wide freedom of interpreting the constitution, the statutes, the federal law, etc.

In our countries judges have very little power because they simply apply the written law. There is the penal code, the private (or civil) code, and other codes.

 

[Woodrow LI]

No....there's no such a law. The French governments forbids both women and men to have their face covered.
so only burqas are forbidden, for security reasons.

In fact, I am a male and I could never wear a mask in a public area.

Women can wear whatever they want: scarfs, veils, traditional Muslim clothing.

come on...burqas are despised even by the 98 % of Muslims...

The Burqa is primarily a Mideastern concept and not mandatory. It is permitted for a Muslim woman to wear it if she desires but is not considered to be Fiqh. My concern has mostly to do with the USA civil laws. The biggest problems would be in areas of inheritance, Marriage, adoption. loan contracts etc. In most of the states there are no problems. In 2 US states all Shariah compliant contracts are illegal. In about 20 States the Islamic Nikkah is not a valid Marriage. In nearly all states the Islamic concept of adoption is not recognized. A Muslim is forbidden to be adopted or to adopt anyone. Family ties are not to be severed for any reason.

My concern here in the USA is that in every US State Judaic civil laws are permitted, but in 20 States nearly identical Islamic civil laws are forbidden. I do not see why Islamic contracts between consenting adult Muslims can not be arbitrated by an Islamic counsel.

 

[Estro Felino]

The Burqa is primarily a Mideastern concept and not mandatory. It is permitted for a Muslim woman to wear it if she desires but is not considered to be Fiqh. My concern has mostly to do with the USA civil laws. The biggest problems would be in areas of inheritance, Marriage, adoption. loan contracts etc. In most of the states there are no problems. In 2 US states all Shariah compliant contracts are illegal. In about 20 States the Islamic Nikkah is not a valid Marriage. In nearly all states the Islamic concept of adoption is not recognized. A Muslim is forbidden to be adopted or to adopt anyone. Family ties are not to be severed for any reason.

My concern here in the USA is that in every US State Judaic civil laws are permitted, but in 20 States nearly identical Islamic civil laws are forbidden. I do not see why Islamic contracts between consenting adult Muslims can not be arbitrated by an Islamic counsel.

I am not an American citizen, but I tell you something.
If I migrated to America, I wouldn't dare ask the Us courts to apply the law of my country.
and most European migrants (I think all of them) have never expected the US courts to apply their laws.
so I really really don't understand, why the American law is so unbearable to Muslims.
as if it was something awful or something against humanity...

are the American laws about divorce, marriage, adoption, contracts so disgusting?

 

[Woodrow LI]

I am not an American citizen, but I tell you something.
If I migrated to America, I wouldn't dare ask the Us courts to apply the law of my country.
and most European migrants (I think all of them) have never expected the US courts to apply their laws.
so I really really don't understand, why the American law is so unbearable to Muslims.
as if it was something awful or something against humanity...

are the American laws about divorce, marriage, adoption, contracts so disgusting?

Not disgusting but can be a path to sin in the Islamic view.

There is a very valid reason a woman receives only 1/2 the inheritance a man receives. A woman is not to pay any household expenses from her own money. Her money is to be used for her own desires. In the event of the death of a father the brothers become responsible for the living expenses of their Mother and Sisters. They have to spend a good bit of their inheritance to provide for their Mother and sisters, who are free to spend their inheritance as they desire .A man's wealth is for the support of the family, a woman's wealth is for her own desires.

Equal division of inheritance would in essence give the majority to the female as the male members have to provide for her livelihood.

Also the house and furnishings are the property of the women and not part of the inheritance.

 

[YmirGF]

Not disgusting but can be a path to sin in the Islamic view.

There is a very valid reason a woman receives only 1/2 the inheritance a man receives. A woman is not to pay any household expenses from her own money. Her money is to be used for her own desires. In the event of the death of a father the brothers become responsible for the living expenses of their Mother and Sisters. They have to spend a good bit of their inheritance to provide for their Mother and sisters, who are free to spend their inheritance as they desire .A man's wealth is for the support of the family, a woman's wealth is for her own desires.

Heaven forbid they pool their resources and work as a team, eh? So much for equality in Islam.

Equal division of inheritance would in essence give the majority to the female as the male members have to provide for her livelihood.

Also the house and furnishings are the property of the women and not part of the inheritance.

It is however a daft system that ensures virtually all women are dependent on their male bread-winners.

 

[Woodrow LI]

Heaven forbid they pool their resources and work as a team, eh? So much for equality in Islam.


It is however a daft system that ensures virtually all women are dependent on their male bread-winners.

Nearly 2 billion people find it to be quite satisfactory.

 

[icehorse]

Nearly 2 billion people find it to be quite satisfactory.

I'm sure that the male half of the Muslim world find it satisfactory. And, because of many harsh penalties I'm sure that many Muslim women would *claim* that it's satisfactory. But if you look at the current thread concerning Ben Affleck, you will see a Muslim woman describing very clearly - in an open letter - that she does NOT find it satisfactory.

If a person lives under threat of harsh penalty for speaking out, then you can't really claim that they agree with you.

 

[Woodrow LI]

I'm sure that the male half of the Muslim world find it satisfactory. And, because of many harsh penalties I'm sure that many Muslim women would *claim* that it's satisfactory. But if you look at the current thread concerning Ben Affleck, you will see a Muslim woman describing very clearly - in an open letter - that she does NOT find it satisfactory.

If a person lives under threat of harsh penalty for speaking out, then you can't really claim that they agree with you.

While in some nations Muslim women are under severe penalties that is not true for all. Very few American Muslim Women have any fear and in much of the world they don't. They still hold fast to Islam and Women seem to accept Islam faster than men do.

 

[LuisDantas]

Nearly 2 billion people find it to be quite satisfactory.

Or have for the most part learned to repress their objections, at the very least.

 

[Al-Fatihah]

no, please...is that a joke?
are you really comparing the law of a country to the toilets?

well...of course men and women have the right to have, for hygienic reasons primarily, two different rest rooms.

Do you realize that you are comparing the difference between Muslims and non-Muslims to the difference between men and women?

Response: If the comparison is a joke, then according to your logic, so is Europe and your argument. Not Islam. For you yourself said the meaning of discrimination is "to differentiate". Does Europe make a difference between men and women? Yes. Then your own logic says that your own country practices discrimination. So do not complain when the very logic you use exposes you. Not Islam.